She BANKRUPTS Men?! Women STRONGER?! Debate GOD Andrew Wilson! Ahegao Queen Nala! | Dating Talk #123

Date: 2023-12-01

Duration: 7h 06m

Guests

Brian Atlas

KKyla (NotSoErudite)>

PPixie (DT130)>

SSalem (DT128)>

AAlexa (Whatever)>

AAndrew Wilson >

Identified Speakers

SPEAKER_01Andrew Wilson(guest)

SPEAKER_03Eden(guest)

SPEAKER_05Caitlyn(guest)

SPEAKER_06Salem(guest)

SPEAKER_07Brian Atlas(host)

SPEAKER_08Kyla(guest)

SPEAKER_10Nala(guest)

SPEAKER_13Alexa(guest)

SPEAKER_14Pixie(guest)

Key Moments

QuoteNala Ray introduces herself as the 'Ahegao Queen', 25yo, lives in the valley, OnlyFans.

“hi I'm Nala the AO queen I am 25 years old I literally live in the valley right now in California and I'm on only fans”

QuoteNala reveals she had a kink for cheating but clarifies it was in unhealthy relationships, and that in a healthy relationship she would not cheat.

“I haven't helped anyone cheat recently or even in at least the last year”

Key MomentAndrew Wilson states he would disown an adult daughter doing OnlyFans 'until she cleaned up her life.'

“I would not be participating with her or allow her in my life it's probably EAS that why is that awful”

QuoteBrian reveals Nala earns nearly $150,000/month from OnlyFans.

“I went from being a pastor's daughter to millionaire only fans model and make nearly $150,000 a month”

Key MomentKyla (NotSoErudite) invokes the Prodigal Son parable against Andrew's disowning position.

“the father allowed him to live out the consequences of that but the father didn't dis him”

QuoteNala confirms she could have retired a year before this episode.

“I could have retired a year ago”

QuoteSalem reveals she has had ~30 sugar daddies/pay pigs, with 7 sending over $100k each.

“not too many probably only like seven”

ControversyAndrew Wilson calls Pixie 'not worth debating' over her refusal to concede men are stronger than women.

“if you're so stupid you don't understand men are stronger than women you're not worth debating”

QuotePixie finally concedes men are stronger than women after Kyla presents a meta-analysis framework.

“based on the information that I've gained from this episode I'm going to say yes the men would be stronger than women”

QuoteCaitlyn admits to physically striking her ex-boyfriend multiple times during arguments at age ~16.

“I would just have a physical reaction”

QuoteNala says she collaborated with YouTube prankster Vitaly on an OnlyFans video and deeply regrets it.

“it was the worst thing I've ever done in my life I wish I could take it back”

QuoteEden reveals a body count of approximately 50-70, mostly condensed into a few months at age 19.

“it's definitely under 70 maybe 60 maybe 6 like it's up”

Topics Discussed

Guest Introductions

Brian introduces show; guests introduce themselves: Nala Ray, Kyla/NotSoErudite, Pixie, Caitlyn, Eden, Salem, Alexa, Andrew Wilson.

Relationship Status & Dating History

Each guest shares relationship status, longest relationship, recent situationships. Includes Caitlyn's ex passing on Thanksgiving, Nala's 2-year single streak, Salem's 30+ on-off breakup situation, Alexa's 50-dates-in-50-days experiment, Kyla's 6-year marriage.

OnlyFans: Finances, Family Reactions, Career Plans

Discussion of OF earnings, family knowledge and reactions. Nala's $150k/month, ability to retire. Salem's sugar daddies (~30 total, >$700k combined). Nala's pastor father accepts her. Eden's Catholic Filipina mom. Kyla's Muslim family risk. Whether OF is a career or stepping stone.

Pastor's Daughter to OnlyFans (Nala's Story)

Nala's background as a pastor's daughter. Felt caged by church modesty standards. Left at 18. Pursued OnlyFans for financial freedom and self-expression. Invests and supports family.

Parenting, Disowning, and Enabling Adult Children

Andrew Wilson states he would disown an adult daughter doing OnlyFans until she 'cleaned up.' Debate on Christian parenting, the Prodigal Son parable, parental love vs. enabling. Nala, Eden, Kyla present counter-arguments.

Monogamy, Polyamory, and Relationship Structures

Eden discusses non-monogamy, having had two boyfriends simultaneously (cuck dynamic). Debate on whether monogamy is natural. Kyla's marriage separation. Salem's on-off relationship patterns.

Sugar Babies, Pay Pigs, and Wealth Extraction

Salem discusses ~30 sugar daddy/pay pig relationships, individual payments up to $30k, multiple men sending over $100k total. Explains pay pig dynamics. Plans to quit OF when moving to Dubai.

Physical Strength: Men vs. Women

Brian revisits debate from previous episode with Pixie. Pixie resists conceding men are physically stronger. Panel cites grip strength studies, deadlift records, high-school boys vs. female Olympians. Pixie eventually concedes based on meta-analysis framing by Kyla. Andrew Wilson frustrated by Pixie's position.

Dating App Culture and 50 Dates/50 Days

Alexa's 50-dates-in-50-days experiment: met first serious boyfriend on date 14, second on date 23. Brian's reaction: would leave a date if she had 7 more lined up. Panel debates whether simultaneous multi-dating is ethical.

Feminism, Oppression, Patriarchy

Survey of feminist positions on the panel. Debate on patriarchy, systemic oppression of women in the US, sexual harassment in STEM. Whether you can be racist against white people or sexist against men. Andrew Wilson challenges systemic racism definitions.

Racism, Sexism, and Definitions

Can you be racist against white people? Can you be sexist against men? Panel votes; debate on power+prejudice definition vs. simple prejudice. Andrew Wilson's logic about Asian vs. Black racism. Pixie's struggle to apply framework consistently.

Trans Women, Sexuality, and the 'Gay' Hypothetical

Extended debate: is it gay to perform oral on a trans woman? Megan Fox vs. Hulk Hogan hypothetical. What determines sexual orientation — genitalia, secondary sex characteristics, or attraction. Kyla and Andrew's prolonged categorical argument.

American Civil War and Slavery

Brief debate: Andrew Wilson says he would have sided with the Confederacy for sovereignty reasons (not slavery). Caitlyn and Kyla argue every seceding state's declaration mentioned slavery.

Plastic Surgery and Body Standards

Brian argues against plastic surgery; prefers natural bodies. Salem discusses insecurity from being in the OF industry (skinny body not featured). Kyla cites studies showing small amounts of plastic surgery can reduce psychiatric illness rates. Salem considering moving to Europe for natural beauty standards.

Body Count Round

End-of-show body count round. Nala: doesn't count. Eden: ~50-70. Alexa: can count on one hand. Andrew Wilson: more than one hand but wife is watching. Salem: declined to answer. Kyla/NotSoErudite: 1 (husband only). Pixie: not stated.

Transcript

Page 5 of 8

Kylachoke you or anything just restrain you and say don't let me go and I'm going to fight as hard as I can it's really important that women understand like this is why like I'm all for women taking self-defense courses and stuff but the best self-defense as my cough

Kyladad would say is screaming please help me and trying to run and whistles and stuff it's really important that women understand like this is why when women talk about like feeling unsafe around men and men like are poo

Kylapooing it it's like no this is why this really really matters is because the power disparity between the average man and the average woman I'm the same height as my husband he would if he wanted to kill me he could kill me at

Kylaliterally any time no matter what and only if I had a gun could maybe I do and if we're in close quarters I still might be but even then they usually take the guns away from the women true feminism is giving women testosterone

Nalahas a lot to do with it which we lack in as females testosterone pushes buttons in men and the higher it goes and like the more enraged you are as a man I've

Andrew Wilsonseen it like it's well it's not just that but testosterone is the building blocks for things like muscle I mean you need it for almost everything absolutely for men it's the Fountain of Youth

Nalathat's what testosterone is for your point was so good ask a man to just even just squeeze you kind of hard you can't even breathe like I just actually had

Nalathis happen and this guy was like 6 foot tall and I was like he just hugged me so tight and cracked my back I was like oh my God like I it was just like intense and I fight unless 5 days a week

Caitlynactually so that was like and I wasn't trying to fight him but his strength alone was like surprising to me I was like wow like and I've been in similar situations to that I'm not going to say that can beat up any man I can't beat up

Caitlynmy own like I can't beat up any woman I'm weak as physically I don't can you beat up Nick you might be that's a good know I'm kid I'm kid probably not like I mean I used to get in fights with my ex and I like I'd freaking start him

Brian Atlasand I'd still get my ass whooped you know physical fights like you and you you would oh it was like mutually violent you would start fights physical um the physical part of

Caitlynum he would be like verbally abusive and then I would just like have a melt down and then just start flailing my arms everywhere I do that fling what do you

Brian Atlasmean MH at him I fling your arms like so here demonstrate for me that that's a pretty good demonstration this this not

CaitlynI don't think I mean what is that that I that like an Irish dance I don't know but I mean I have and I had deep regrets about that and it was very wrong of me um you did it multiple times

Brian Atlasyes what you said he was being verbally abusive so what would he say that would compel you to physically strike him God it's been so long it's been a

Kylalong time wait you are saying clearly though it was wrong not okay yes absolutely AB so but what what was he saying that would that precipitated you

Caitlynphysically assulting intentionally hurtful things um he such as I don't remember it's been a it's been a minute give me one example CU you said this happened multiple times so

Kylayeah does it matter so yeah like well I mean do matter no I I don't think I don't think it's ever Justified to strike somebody but I'm sure you don't it just like it feels like now we're digging

Kylainto it for like why they were which feels odd it's her personal like okay well I'm still asking

Caitlynso I so it was uh what he was saying and the intention to hurt me behind it and then also uh buildup like it would be a long hurtful conversation and then like

Brian AtlasI would get so angry that you know I would have a Outburst um damn it's an embarrassing to talk about this was it was it unilaterally verbally abusive like when you were engaging in these arguments and like you were just

Caitlynnot saying anything mean to him and like I assume there was some there was times where I did say some mean things to him but there was a lot of times especially like in the last like year of the

Caitlynrelationship where I did my best to not verbally engage with those things I would just tell him like it's wrong for you to say this to me it's wrong for you to Gaslight me I would try my best to

Caitlyncalmly or at the very least um harmlessly explain like why he's hurting me and then he would continue to do it and then that's whenever I would have a physical

Caitlynreaction would he strike you back or he would just um less I mean there was certain times where he striked me back but most of the time he just allowed you to no not allowed he would just like restrain

Caitlynme okay most but he most of the time he would not like strike you back most of the time you attacked him and he restrained you yeah I think I think I mean if I'm understanding what you're asking

Kylacorrectly again just to be clear like she's saying that this was wrong so I understand like digging into it but like the fact that she's being honest about it and saying like this isn't okay is a good thing even though I we would all

Kylaagree it's not a good thing I just like I'm really worried about like what the chat's now like going and doing right now where it's like just so it's clear her saying like this was in correct and showing remorse is the correct response

Caitlynto that past yeah I'm just one example of something he said that made you strike him um I had okay I had told him that I was really insecure and I felt like really lazy about like not being

Caitlynable to do school work not having the motivation to clean my room and then he would go and be like you're a lazy piece of or you know something along not a nice thing to say no

Caitlynnot of those you slapped him what did you do that actually that one time specifically my mind we were having an argument in the car on the way to his

Caitlynfamily's house and he I don't remember what the argument was about or nothing like that but I remember he got out of the car he was about to go get his stuff out of the trunk or something like that

Caitlynand on his way opening the door he was like you're lazy as or that like that's why you're lazy or you know he said it in a way that like was intentional to dig at me so I got out of

Caitlynthe car and I went walked around the car to where he was and I tried I just swung and tried to slap him I didn't I didn't slap him that time I don't

Caitlynthink I don't remember exactly how it went down but yeah how old was he uh we were the same age I don't remember what what in the time period this was in our relationship but probably 16 we were probably both

Caitlyn16 let's bring it back to the strength thing so um okay so I don't think I honestly have much more to say like I like I said there's a lot of factors that go into it the adrenaline the intellectual the intellect of an

Caitlynindividual you know how quick they are on their feet fighting skills that they have all of these things what would it take to convince you that you're incorrect about this Statistics we we showed you we showed you the grip

Brian Atlasstrength study we showed you in the previous episode that the the male deadlift what deadlift the yes I was about to say the deadlift it was like men the world record is twice as much in

Brian Atlasdeadlift for men as it is in women and I I showed you the that gold medal comparison that the that high school boys who are not at the top of the

Brian Atlashierarchy when it comes to uh athleticism well I mean compared to female Olympians they out compete female Olympians mhm so what I

Brian AtlasI'm I I'm failing to see what it would does anybody here at the table think that there's a Smoking Gun that would convince her that men are just physically stronger than women generally

Brian Atlasspeaking no and I'm asking the chat too if the chat has any if we're missing something here that would help us uh is there is there like a Smoking Gun piece of I don't know study or let me okay

Caitlynwhat would it take to convince you that your mom couldn't beat up 80% of the men I don't know I mean I'm sure I could be proven wrong on that I'm not like firm on it I he asked me what percentage

Kylaor you know whatever I just gave a guess there was like a meta analysis of like 10,000 data points and it was like con inclusive that on average men hold like

Kylamore explosive power on every single like metric and their entomology like literally is towards and being like stronger would you would that convince you I think so I think from everything that I received from the point that you

Caitlynwere making okay those do exist they exist and they're pretty strong overwhelmingly like could never be refuted but I used to I used to like think what you thought so like but I I

Caitlynjust hope that you at least you understand what I'm saying especially used to have that perspective that it's strength can be is so many different things at once sure the issue is that

Kylalike okay oh my god when it comes to every single metric of strength men just out compete and like at the end of the I so I do understand what you're saying it's just like I think at some point it's okay to be like yeah I guess I was incorrect about that which is like and

Kylathat's honestly I've come here to learn to try to you know expand my ability to debate um being in a group dynamic like this where like everyone's just like take pot shots isn't exactly the best

Caitlynspace to be like waving The Humble flag either cuz I don't think anyone will take it so and I have been pretty firm about this but because nobody put it the way that she just put it there's no or I was really asking for what how did you

Kylaput it a meta analysis of what 10,000 plus points like sorry like data points like an N of 10,000 okay I don't know if you know what an N is but size M so maybe if you guys could have just

Caitlyndone that Mr professional debater like you I mean I'm frustated you say you're a professional de and then you immediately get fired Up when somebody doesn't agree with you or when something isn't making complete sense when you

Andrew Wilsonhaven't let somebody complete their point and no you listen to me give me a how much more time do I need to let you talk I barely said anything to you so listen you're telling me to listen in the middle of my listen listen when you say Mr professional Mr professional

Andrew Wilsondebator here's me Mr professionally debating if you're so stupid you don't understand men are stronger than women you're not worth debating you're not smart enough to have the convers

Andrew Wilsonthere like it's crazy to me why would I need to debate with you that the sky is blue or that there's clouds or that why would I debate those things you chose to come on the podcast I come on the

Andrew Wilsonpodcast to choose to debate with a clown doesn't know that men are stronger than women ever that like if don't have the con don't interact just sit back relax

Andrew Wilsontake I have been we could the I haven't been doing this but you deserve it honestly she wasn't like that her opinion couldn't kind of been SED you should have been okay that's the end of

Edenthe conversation let's move on it's just kind of been like I also feel like as a woman it's like it's not really the girl power point it's supposed to be when like I feel like a big basis of a lot of women's issues is we can't fight back

Brian Atlasyou know so I feel like okay not not totally related but um the thing is is that it's it's shocking to hear somebody say that

Brian Atlasbecause it in the same way that Andrew said he doesn't want to debate whether the sky is blue uh you don't really like

Brian Atlashow do you like it's almost self-evident that men are stronger than women it need not even be there need not even be studies done

Brian Atlasbut they've done many studies comparing strength for example uh do you do acknowledge that men generally speaking

Brian Atlasare larger in size right and so that might manifest itself for example in the components that make up your body right so if you're physically bigger that

Brian Atlasmeans you have more fat you have more uh skeleton uh you have more muscle correct okay now what if you lift weights and you start getting stronger you start

Brian Atlasdeveloping what muscle right so do you acknowledge that men on average have more muscle than women yes I think we had this this part of the conversation last time where

Brian Atlasthere was more muscle on the average if you have more muscle do you are you going to be stronger generally speaking we can get into like different types of muscle fibers and you know I mean I

Caitlyndon't need the necessarily the muscle fibers but I would say yes the somebody that has more muscle has stronger no I don't I don'ts so I'm not going to to say that

Brian AtlasI'm strong that's that's fine um if you started to lift weights would you anticipate an increase in your muscle size as long as I'm feeding my body nutritiously I would say so yes okay and

Brian Atlascorrespondingly if you started lifting weights your strength would increase correct M okay so your muscle size would increase you'd be able to lift more weights so if men have more muscle mass

Brian Atlaswouldn't it be generally you can see that men on average have more muscle mass than women just due to their larger physical size yes and I think I see so so do you do you then think be you've conceded that men have more muscle mass

Brian Atlasyou can see that they're physically larger because men have more muscle mass on average would you say that on average due to men's greater muscle mass that they're stronger than

Caitlynwomen logically yes that makes sense but what do you mean logically yes the reason that I have an issue conceeding on this topic is because I don't want to put out there to the men

Caitlynthat aren't willing to the audience that isn't willing to log like look at the all of the aspects into in it in the the strength

Caitlynum so I don't want to just be like willy-nilly um men are stronger than women because like we've discussed there are so many women that are stronger than men and we

Brian Atlashaven't taken that's not the there okay but we've already addressed that before so are there women that are stronger than men absolutely Are there women that could beat up men

Brian Atlasabsolutely but just because there are women that could beat up men does not mean that if that all women could beat up all men yeah I

SPEAKER_00know but so we're not saying we're not say like I don't know I don't even know how to how to argue this I don't know can we stop talking to Brook for my S

SPEAKER_00obviously men are stronger than women let's move on to others on the panel instead of focusing on whether the sky is blue I just I agree I I agree

Kyladoesn't it ory to be wrong and I think like like for example like all the chat being like ha yeah it's awesome she's just some dumb bimbo it's like that's exactly the problem with all of this like ideological wrestling is that

Brian Atlasit's damn near impossible ideological wrestling I mean you yourself has said have said that but you agree age you agree that men are like this is like this simple simple thing for example it's very simple though why are why are

Kylawomen out competing on super marathons all of a sudden do you know why that is no tell us we no we actually address this I know that's the interesting question why the are women doing so

Kylawell on super marathons I why would that matter to this claim because I'm not saying that it matters to this claim I'm saying like being really nasty towards somebody who like is having a hard time admitting that are wrong in a space that

Andrew Wilsonit's really hard to ever be wrong in I think is just shitty no we don't need we don't I say that's totally fair just let Andrew resp this is the most

Andrew Wilsonridiculous thing I've ever heard we went through this for like 2 hours last time with her on hang on stop stop last time I was on whatever went through two hours

Andrew Wilsonso she had all that time to come back for that one big claim the whole time to just Google are men stronger than women and the big Google box which goes yes

Andrew Wilsonand big neon signs and there's going to be Sparkles and flowers poofing that yes yes she could have done that she didn't so yeah is she poking fun of her and laughing at her yeah does she deserve it

Kylayeah is she going to learn from it probably not should she do should you do it for like 30 to 50 minutes is my kind of my question I agree two hours 3 hours 4 hours can iish can I finish my thoughts with with love I think it's

Kylalike a pretty bad position I think you're wrong obviously right and I think like holding to it regardless of anything is like probably not a good look the issue is like after her and I exchange she's like okay yeah I guess you're right but then just needed to go back into it and like rake things over

Kylathe coals again and you had to have your big diet tribe about like how she's dumb and not worth debating ever and stuff like that which I'm not even disagreeing with you the issue is like why is this nasty Behavior necessary when we all pretend like we're here to like wrestle with ideas and try to figure out like

Kylathe answers to reality none of these types of orientations because it's a rejection of reality it doesn't matter it doesn't no it doesn't matter about the way that you treat other people yes it does listen when you say when you say

Andrew Wilsonit's not t Poli I'm not saying you're like doing dog if you're going to wrestle with different ideas you're going to wrestle with different things that people believe you have to risk being offensive and sometimes you have to be mean to jar them out of their nonsense and their I've had to

Andrew Wilsondo it hundreds of times you've had to too I've seen you do it so let's not pretend for a second that this is somebody on some big white horse right trying to ride in and save her from

Caitlynsomething that should that what should have happened instead she should have just been like listen doofus stop doing that sure I'm Sor please let me please just it'll take two seconds when you guys were

Caitlynrunning in circles last time and this time okay when you guys were running in circles in this conversation this time and last time failing to understand what I was trying to say and maybe I wasn't putting it across the best way maybe I wasn't and I could admit to that and I

Caitlynwasn't she fine go ahead go ahead go ahead okay okay um it was just not productive because you guys were completely failing to understand the point that I was trying to make which was what which was it's very hard to

Brian Atlasquantify strength there's no it's not though she just said that there was 10,000 but but you said you said it's hard to quantify strength so what about all like for example in physical

Brian Atlaseducation I think you had to do like pull-ups and push-ups like if if you just took like an untrained like an untrained boy and an untrained girl like men did you take PE in high school or in

Brian Atlasyeah like was there a pull-up test was there was there running was there push-ups typically the women were allowed to do push-ups on their knees did you do push-ups on your knees in physical education mhm were the boys

Brian Atlasable to do push-ups without being on their knees so okay that's chest strength push strength do you think this motion when it comes to self-defense the

Brian Atlasability to force like literally a punch this is a punching motion so your push-up strength would would um I'm

Brian AtlasI'm would would uh translate to perhaps your strength when punching somebody don't you think that that could be an indicator maybe yes it is an indicator

Brian Atlasand that's what I'm saying like quantify so let's say let's say the boys in physical education class in junior high school and high school they're able to do push-ups not using their knees and they can do far more than women would

Brian Atlasthat be quantifying men's strength with versus women's strength or what about pull-ups I remember when I was in high school I could do 10 pull-ups the girl maybe two girls could do one pull-up do you do you remember doing pull-ups in

Brian Atlashigh school yeah so actually the girls use use that life experience the the pull-ups in high school were the boys able to do more pullups than the women

Caitlynmhm okay it's been Quantified I also don't know how active these men or these boys have been throughout their life and how active they are on a recreational level and I know you know or I don't know how active the every single day you

Kylahave PE class and you're doing the same activ do at home you know what are they didn't you already agree with me though about like the stats and everything like didn't you just yes I'm just I'm just trying to reemphasize the the question I

Kylathink it's I think it's okay to just be wrong right I think it's okay to be like all of the issues that I was Raising before probably aren't that valid but she doesn't concede that she's wrong agree that she does she doesn't I agree that she concede but here's a question

KylaI'd actually want to ask you to why did she concede to me that she was wrong well I think she was she conceded to me that I was wrong I said she said I said would a study like a meta analysis of

Andrew Wilson10,000 convince you that there was actually has ConEd to you yes I did explicitly did and I you just to say to her 5 seconds ago uh I thought you just

Kylaconceded this point and she was like well no not really she fully conceded that men are stronger than women based on the evidence I submitted to her correct yes what evidence did you submit to I said that there's meta analysis

Andrew Wilsonwith over 10,000 data points that would very clearly normatively show on all metrics of strength that men are stronger so why do you so so the question that you have for us is I think what you're trying to say is that you created an escape route for her to get

Kylaaway false the question is why did she concede with me and not with you or you that's what I'm asking because you created an Escape Route for her how is that an escape route to say there is that meta analysis well because it's

Andrew Wilsonvery clear at this point from from her perspective after getting beat up on this two times in a row over and over and over again by everybody sitting at the table both times that she was completely Incorrect and essentially

Andrew Wilsonthre a Lifeline she was able to grab the lifeline I was happy I was happy to let you throw the lifeline happy to let her grab it happy to move on from that right

Kylaexcept when we kind of get back into it we go wait a second did she really she agreed with her and then no one moved on like we didn't move on in large part because Brian wanted to read

Kylawhich is fine it's your show obviously part of why we didn't move on is because Brian redirected to the question Point she did concede to me it doesn't mean that she conceded with me about like grip strength I didn't get into all of those specifics necessarily but I think

Kylait's important to pose of like what are the things that are necessary to like allow people to be willing to change their mind and what I was saying about you guys like I think it's fine to think she's got a dumbass idea and wrong and be like a little mean to her about it I don't think that that's a problem I

Kylathink it's really weird though when like everyone's like group punching on her it's like you have you ever seen a fight where like one kid gets punched in the face and then 10 other kids come from metor and stomping on each other this is almost like if if everyone here agreed

Brian Atlasthat I have blue eyes and she's like no he has brown eyes and we're like no no no no no he has blue eyes like that is the Ree of the delusion she's not in she's not operating in reality at all I know if my response would be to like

KylaCircle the Drain with her for an hour just to keep highlighting how wrong she is and then when somebody else on the panel gets her to be like okay I guess they are brown when you say it that way I wouldn't then recircle back to it I would go why am I recycling back here

Brian Atlasprobably for Content In fairness which is not like the worst I just like so this whole white night obviously just perhaps you're you're you're using you're you've got the kid gloves on with her and perhaps the way you worded it

Brian Atlasit's not even clear to me me because if if you ask her if you get her to concede to the point and then I then ask essentially this I don't know if I ask the exact same thing as you but if I say

Brian Atlaswell okay then so if you conc to her point then surely you must surely must be the case that you agree that men generally speaking are stronger than women and then you say no in actuality she didn't concede to your point she I

Kylaguess she just wanted to be agreeable with you because you were being Pleasant to her question now I'm not attacking her she's not she's not being like he's not I think the only name calls was like probably Andrew he

Salemsaid she she was stupid and dumb as I think that was yeah no that's what I'm saying Bri no no Brian you weren't I'm saying it's cuz you were coming off like every time she would tell you like maybe

Caitlynthis is what I think this is my opinion you kept let's like making the point that she is wrong here let's let her speak for herself it's not even about what I think I okay it is about what I think but it's more about really the way

Caitlynthat I'm thinking it um like I've been trying to say it's like there's so many factors that go into strength

Caitlynum there's so many factors that go into strength and it's really hard with the with what the information that you guys were giving me all y'all gave me what what are the factors that go into

Brian Atlasstrength there we talked about it the adrenalin um the muscle mass the grip strength you know all those things Okay so so we established that grip strength men have more grip strength we

Brian Atlasestablished that men have more muscle density and muscle mass and when it comes to Adrenaline let's if I were to concede to you that when it when in a fight ORF flight situation both men and

Brian Atlaswomen receive the same dose of adrenaline using those other factors if the muscle mass is more in men and the grip strength is more in men but the adrenaline is the same

Caitlynthen wouldn't men still be stronger yes compared to like okay yes so okay so there are those factors and then there are factors that I don't know about and I cannot list and I don't know if

Brian Atlasanybody can list them because you probably have to have a pretty in-depth understanding of biology no you don't need an indepth understanding of biology you don't do do you think in order to make the determination that men are

Brian Atlasstronger than women generally speaking that you need to have like a PhD and I think it requires a met analysis that she was referring to whether or not you have a PhD you take that so let me ask you a question would say a 10-year-old

Caitlynboy who's in elementary school would he be in incap incapable of coming to the conclusion that men are stronger than women only yeah because he doesn't have the facts if he doesn't have the facts then there's no way he can come to that

Brian Atlasconclusion right does that mean like I don't know if so what about me I I dropped out of City College I uh I dropped out of City

Brian AtlasCollege I never got a a degree from a institution of higher education because of my lack of credentials am am I incapable of coming to the conclusion

Caitlynthat men are stronger than women no because it's not about the credentials I'm telling it's about the facts that you know if you know the facts then you know the facts and that's the end of it

Caitlynis that easy to understand um okay um I don't even know how to argue this to be honest because you can't I mean if

Kylayou then you know them and you can provide them and you can use them in your argument what if I what if his point would be like he provided multiple multiple multiple saw it let me ask you let me

Brian Atlasask you a question let me ask you a question so we have the we have the great benefit of the internet let's

Brian Atlasgo back a 100 years let's say I didn't have let's say I was some farm boy that never that I never went to school I grew up on a farm go go back 200 years grew

Brian Atlasup on the farm didn't have access to Internet never went to school had no education would I be wrong as somebody who's had no education who can't Google

Brian Atlasgrip strength and Olympian well there wasn't the Olympics 200 years or actually well the Greeks had I think it came when did the Olympics come back in the early 1900s

Caitlynearly 19s yeah in any case that's kind of irrelevant would I not be able to determine that men are physically stronger than women so you could make a generalization based off the information that you've gather gathered throughout

Caitlynyour lifetime but you cannot state for a fact with 100% confidence and certainty that men are stronger than women because as a farm boy that doesn't know nothing you've seen this much of the world and

Brian Atlasbeen given the information of or this much information about the world actually as a farm boy you might have substantial amount of information because that's physical that's a physically laborious job I don't

Brian Atlasdisagree with you but I'm just and perhaps if something heavy on the farm needs to be moved it's not the women that ends up moving it but it's the men exactly so that would be that you could come to a generalization using that

Kylainformation I don't like I don't but you said I don't even know I don't know how to further I think like the most important thing in all this is you need to have like a line of credulity right

Kylaand like I don't know if a met analysis of 10,000 is the best line of credulity it's one but it's like you know for example probably what Brian and Andrew would point to and most a chat would be like you can just like look around at

Kylalife and like see it and so I think like any whenever you're thinking about an idea you must have a line where you say like this would be enough to convince me and if you don't have that line the reality is like you probably don't have

Kylamuch worth and really engaging in the idea and I'm not saying that this is just you just be clear like everybody in chat Who's laughing at this has some dumb beliefs with no lines of credulity either it's just like what we're running into in here is like

KylaBrian's like there is no line of credulity other than like probably know he's mind he's like the reason maybe Kyla was effective is cuz she like has tits um and like said it nicely um which I'm not sure if that's actually what I don't that's not my position but true I would be curious I guess maybe your

Brian Atlasposition is that I didn't actually convince her I think it's actually your well it could be the case that she has an in-group bias for other women and to hear it from a woman might actually well not because you have tits oh so so when I say when I have tits

CaitlynIt's like a joke towards I see because we're women yeah okay sure um I was actually hopeful that Andrew last episode would be able at least understand the

Caitlynlogical there's nothing logical in I'm your position the question of the logic the question of the objectivity of strength and the question of the quantifiability like that's because I'm

Caitlynjust raising questions that's it all I wasn't solid arguments please I wasn't making solid arguments I didn't make a single solid argument actually this whole conversation in the last conversation I just said I don't know I

Caitlyndo not have all of the quantifiable information or the yeah all of the data that it would need or that I would need to determine if all if on average men are stronger than women make the

Brian Atlasstatement that your mom could beat up 80% of men he asked for a random statistic that was just a freaking guess let me let me ask you a question let's say you went to a powerlifting

Brian Atlascompetition a lifting like where they do various lifts um and you were you could like interview every single individual at this powerlifting competition and

Brian Atlaslet's say that there's 100 men and 100 women and they're all it's not just like you're comparing 100 men who lift to 100 women who have lived sedentary lives

Brian Atlasthey're both uh they're Peak athletes they both are in the top of their competition they're at a competition um if you were able to interview all of

Brian Atlasthem like don't you think in that cohort in that well not don't you think but I'll ask do you think that the men would

Caitlynbe stronger than the women based on the information that I've gained from this episode I'm going to say yes the men would be stronger than women we did

Kylaresolution okay all right um a liberal talking point earlier in the conversation so I think pixie blue pilled you wait what's that you gave some like liberal kind of talking point and I was going to make a joke about how

Brian Atlaspixie blue pilled you when you guys are ready to date but oh I forgot it I can't remember what it was okay well we're going to move on was it the in group bias no no no it's like two hours ago

Brian Atlassitting on that J wait wait wait I'm sorry I'm sorry I'm sorry I'm sorry are men stronger than women yes okay she just okay I'm not goingon to convince her all right we're gonna move on um we have damn Daniel we

Brian Atlashave Sergio Banks 87 how the f are you incapable of answering the obvious answer it's as easy as saying women make better mothers in pixie don't you dare bring up trans men okay okay not sure what that's related to it was like 40

Brian Atlasminutes ago so there's a lot of feelings on that one all right we have God there's like layers we have uh firsttime chatter what percent of women could her mom beat up

Brian Atlasmore than 80% now a key that can open many locks is called a master key but a lock that can be opened by Benny Keys is a shitty lock thoughts thoughts dire a pencil that could be sharpened a

Brian Atlaslies a bad pencil but a sharpener who's here we have another chat coming in here we have uh hey blondie is the world flat that there's plenty of proof against it but you don't know for sure

Brian Atlasuntil you see it for yourself right or until you see all the worlds in all Dimensions do you think the world is flat no okay have you ever had Zera on I'm actually super curious no I haven't had him on you haven't would you have

Kylahim on like cuz he's into the Flat Earth let's say pre zerka burning every single possible human bridge would you have had zirka on cuz he was a flat earther and if you would would you have gone at him as heart cuz dumb wait would I

Brian Atlashave what would You' have gone at him as hard to debate him about flatter about FLIR well it's I feel like uh that's totally unrelated to it's super separate it's a super separate topic OB I'm just

Brian Atlashonestly like I find the whole that whole debate so dumb in pointless like would like I don't care kind of dumb and pointless yeah but it's uh I I see what

Brian Atlasyou're saying but I care so much less about like the flatter thing well I mean even compar to I I have a much stronger position on male versus female strength

Kylaas I do like Flat Earth is just conspiracy theory so I mean theoretically women being as strong as men is just like silly conspiracy theory that most people don't believe in all right all right we have a chat here

Brian Atlasfrom hold on one sec we have Rola can we get my queen in the corner of cough drop she's been dying all podcast and it's breaking my heart oh yeah she I don't know if you guys heard she was in the bathroom like coughing up the storm so

Brian Atlasyeah good times inur looks concerned um all right so let's get into some of finally some some a bit more juicy stuff here um juicy

Brian Atlasnow we will come back I know we wanted to get back to the trans stuff um did we yeah we'll get we'll get there in just a sec we'll get back into some of that stuff in just a sec I want to go around

Brian Atlasthe table though uh who here considers themselves a feminist I'm not yeah sure okay yes yes yeah

Kylasomewhat first wave yes everything after the original original yes yes first second wave is pretty first and second than that fourth wave is kind of there's some dopers in there uh do you believe in the

Kylapatriarchy I don't know what that is actually okay oh I think it's like a silly buzz word that's like pretty useless to describe anything okay I mean

Alexayeah the concept exists okay yep yeah mhm do you mean like do I believe in the word or do like kind of curious s do you think the patriarchy exists I think is

Brian Atlasthe point of question yeah I guess okay so under the patriarchy my understanding right feminist scholar over here can you explain what patriarchy is though how are you defining it I mean there's so

Brian Atlasmany different there's so many different different definitions I've heard from women that it's a world built by men for men uh I disagree with if if that is the definition from from feminist I'd say

Brian Atlasit's a really common definition I'm to the feminis but so I agree with the first part the world is absolutely built by men but it's not for the

Brian Atlasbenefit of men um but I've also heard a society that typ where where men have a uh to some degree a monopoly on high

Brian Atlaspositions of power within government and corporations and so on um maybe the leadership the leadership positions in society are held by men yeah there's like struct patriarchy and cultural

Brian Atlaspatriarchy there's a whole bunch of different things but so okay uh you believe in the patriarchy or sorry I think I went around the table went around the yes and my understanding is the patriarchy says that women are

Kylaoppressed and men are the oppressors it's not as simple as that yeah it's not well okay fine how about this under patriarchy are women oppressed yes so are men I'm the worst so I I'm going to

Kylafight with all the feminists on this one I think we live in like a basically a post I'm going to piss you guys off I'm sorry I we live in a post-patriarchal world I don't really think it exists I think there's some level of cultural patriarchy um but I don't think any good like there's very few feminists like

KylaSimone deoa was like the only one actually talking about it because she's the last feminist to be like good at writing I guess um but I'm very I'm not the best person to ask to represent the feminists okay I infight

Brian Atlaswith feminists a lot okay but so are under patriarchy or whether you agree with it or not do you guys consider say for example in the US are women

Edenoppressed not in the US not in the like to a certain extent I feel like like men are victims of the same a lot of the same things that women are so

Caitlynit's kind of like they just don't talk about it as much I think oppressed is a really heavy word to use and I think we have a really strong connotation of it

Caitlynin like in our minds um but I would say with a objective use of the word oppressed yes women are oppressed in America so and pixie are women oppressed

Brian Atlasin the US yeah yes women and men are both oppressed under the patriarchy just through different ways okay I agree with that so so since you it sounds like you three consider yourself to be oppressed how are you oppressed since you're women you said

Edenwomen are oppressed so how are you oppressed I mean cuz I feel like it's like systematic sexual violence against women well hold on systematic like it's so common and built into our world and like like I feel like I'm about to start

Brian Atlastalk about some of the things I supposed to talk about yeah yeah yeah I yeah okay but like I feel like women are kind of like sexually like kind let me ask you a question which system which system or

SPEAKER_00institution grid One Motorsports donated $200 Brian who ordered extra blonde moments tonight maybe debating Andrew being a big old meanie is more useful or

Brian Atlassomething meaningful like how feminism has failed them how can the patriarchy help you thank you thank you good one thank you man um which you mentioned

Brian Atlassystem which system is like wholesale essaying women I mean it's it's not wholesale but I guess I mean I mean you're not going to like this I feel like cuz it's not even just

Andrew Wilsondirectly towards woman I feel like Purity culture is one thing that kind of what's Purity culture I feel like religion kind of teaches a lot of certain things what is what does religion kind of teach that's that's so terrible I mean cuz I don't want I feel like I'm

Edengoing to start like trigger words but like you're averagely it's not like all virgins are children that's not true I'm not trying to say that there aren't virgin adult women but when you start kind of like there's a reason like I'm

Edenwhen did you get married I just said that there are like 23 yeah I'm not saying that all vir of children I didn't say all like how he said they're probably a big strong woman who could beat a bunch of men are you about to shame men for their preference I'm not shaming men for a preference I'm saying

Pixiebut it is weird Okay if you're a man who has like freaking 75 bodies and you want a virgin why is that yeah it's like if I think she's the point she's trying to get to and correct me if I'm wrong is she's saying that we currently live in a

Pixiesociety SL system that does praise men generally speaking for having high body counts while shaming women who have high body counts not sure if that's evidence of Oppression but and by the way is that

Edenwe're going to have toig is that religion that's just relig we're getting a little bit off topic I feel like when you make it like being sexual is being impure it's kind of like and then what what group of what are most virgins and

Edenwhat are most sexually active people adults children like it's just kind of I'm not saying that's 100% of the time there are virgin adults but majority of virgins are young I'm not saying 100% I'm not saying there's not exceptions

Edenyou're not wrong to say that the majority of virgins are wrong but if we're having a yeah not wrong I said majority of virgins are and so if you're kind of like putting this if we're putting sexual Purity on a high pedestal

Edenit kind of like like you know with all that that was they were literally putting what's it called sorry my blood suir is dropping if my words are kind of stuttering but um what was I going to say like for the for millions and millions of dollars of hush money in the

EdenCatholic church to go towards covering up the mation of children that went deep into the like into the church and all I'm saying is is it's like would you hold the public schools to the same standard considering there's a whole lot

Pixiemore essay that goes on in public schools than on that yes in fact it's 10 times more it's more doesn't mean it's

Pixieokay because I've searched up for that and so do you know what like University or do do we think the reason like when priest touch these little boys it's because they're like pure I feel

Brian Atlaslike a reason they touch is cuz they're pure stop you're derailing the conversation

Caitlynum go ahead um how are you oppressed um I think the best and most clear example

Caitlynthat I can give is um how women are how women's physiolog phys physiology is integrated I guess or

Caitlyninteracted with in American Society for example um sorry um I I believe and okay let

Caitlynme women's physiology is not studi not studied as much as men um so like men are used more in case studies than women

Caitlynso uh with like a lot of medications for example um and like just basically the understanding that we have of the human body is more it has more of a foundation of the

Brian Atlasstudying of men I so I I have heard that that there's studies are more frequently done on on men I I haven't fully looked into the points and counterpoints in

Brian Atlasthat one reason I can provide for you why that might be is because at any given time if you're testing some new medication on somebody if that person happens to be pregnant that could be catastrophic to the child so my

Brian Atlasunderstanding and there could be some more points and counterpoints is one of the reasons they're more likely to test medications on men is that there's no risk on a potential unknown uh pregnancy or child that's my that's my

Andrew Wilsonunderstanding it's also from menstration because there's chemical differences and distinctions which can happen during the course of the study and women can't always track that so they might think it's coming right but they don't know for sure sometimes it's two weeks late

Brian Atlassometimes it's a week early so they can't always do that for the wait so but but your point you're saying that women are oppressed because they're less likely to have uh experimental drugs

Brian Atlastested on them that would suggest to me that men are desperate for money and that they're willing to undergo like take these experimental drugs just to get money because it's certainly the

Brian Atlascase that men for example are more likely to be homeless and more likely to be socio economically in a bad position you disagree with that then how can it possibly be I'm not disagreeing about homelessness um what do you I guess it

Brian Atlasmeans exactly what you mean by socioeconomic position 80% of the homeless are men that would suggest to me that the the worst socioeconomic position is homelessness right but then I guess the argument would be like or

Pixiecuz you can argue like the majority of like and this is just playing with numbers now right because you can argue the majority of men are homeless right or of sorry of homeless people are men but then let's say the number of um moms

Pixiein poverty maybe not homeless are like 10 times higher than the base number of homeless people right then that would suggest like some there when it comes to like how we're determining um what sex is like suffering to Google I

Brian Atlasdon't know I honestly don't know that's why my face wait a second by gender uh poverty rates by gender let me see hold on I just want to make sure I'm

Kylagetting a good one or I don't know probably won't address the like control that pixie's asking for um just to like St St in it a little bit you would need to look like what she's basically saying

Kylais like probably when you look at the lowest socioeconomic standard which would be homeless individuals I hate static people and I don't agree with them okay um uh like

Kylaessentially this like lowest body group essentially is probably mostly men but the issue is that if you go up to like just a slightly higher Group which would be like single mothers there's probably disproportionately like way more women there than there are even men in the

Kylahomeless stat so it's like it's hard to quantify like who's more poor overall because who's more homeless overall is men who's more often like alone to raise children well that's women um I think that's the point she's getting at yes

Pixieokay thank you I would argue that homelessness is probably worse than just living in poverty no you're you're not you're not understanding my base argument um I'm going to try to play with numbers here to make it more clear um let's say

Andrew Wilsonthere's hundred H can I take a shot at it okay just to just to make sure we get so you're saying that it could be proportionate to the next socioeconomic level so you're not sure if just showing that there's a exra rate of homelessness

Pixieamong men would really give us the full picture yeah basically like if we had let's say 100 homeless individuals and 90 90 of those individuals are men yeah that's obviously really really bad but let's say you go up a scale and then

Pixiethere's you know a thousand people in low income and like you know 990 of those people are women well then that shows like yeah there it's just like stat basically that's what I'm trying to get out yeah well I'm not

Andrew Wilsondisagreeing with you but unless we have you know said the empirical data we can't even look at it so yeah I agree so but but we can look at some other things or maybe agree on some other intuitive

Andrew Wilsonthings yeah which is if we're moving back into the kind of patriarchy conversation you you say that the patriarchy is hurting men and women yes okay what is the

Pixiepatriarchy um so there's a lot of different definition of p patriarchy the way that I would personally Define it is like a system I I guess I would go back to like

Pixieyeah like a system of power that usually places men in um dominant roles when it comes to like leadership um when it comes to just like Economic Opportunity um just in general

Pixiethroughout Society I think um what is it the patriarchy also has like a lot of like cultural components towards it that I think um even though it does put men into power it is like I think in a lot

Pixieof ways detrimental to men's like Health overall um so for example like in our society um a lot of things that we consider to be integral to being a

Pixieleader um I don't think actually follow leadership and actually are like really bad for the individual so this idea for example um somebody who doesn't show

Pixieemotion like stoicism but to the extreme right um people often are like oh you see that person that means that they're so rational that means that they're so logical because they're not showing any emotion but that doesn't necessarily

Andrew Wilsonmean that internally that's what's going on right that's why you have like people who go into like you know you You' never know it but then they commit self- deltion right stoicism something which

Pixieis considered preferable in a leader I I would argue that our culture as a whole yeah they see people who are like like extreme stoicism emotionalist I'm not sure about that I think um I

Andrew Wilsonthink the way I would say like leaders ship you would be looking at things like Charisma Charisma would be a really big one that would be something that people would gravitate towards uh good decision

Andrew Wilsonmaking confidence competence all of those things I would kind of put in as leadership skills I'm not sure that people really gravitate towards extreme stoicism the re the reason or a big Reas

Andrew Wilsonor emotionalist in fact I think that car the reason you call them charismatic leaders right is because uh in leadership roles when people are very charismatic they tend to have people

Pixiedrawn and attracted let me phrase it this way um do you think a person who showcases sadness um do you think Society in general would look down on that person up in that person neutral to

Andrew Wilsonthat person depending on the situation if if for instance um for men I think that um the only time it's really appropriate for them to cry is in extreme cases so I always give the

Andrew Wilsonexample of like somebody Clos to you dies uh or a close personal friend dies and that's basically it that's about the only times that you're really allowed to cry about anything um but there's good

Andrew Wilsonreasons for that and one of the good reasons for that is especially if you're leader of a family right you don't really want to be falling apart very often and you do have to kind of hide your emotions a bit so that you can lead

Andrew Wilsonyour family correctly your children look up to you everybody looks up to you you have to make sure that you're leading the household in a correct way so that everybody has confidence in your competence yeah I understand where you're coming from and I do agree that

Pixiestability is like a good Showcase of being a leader but then to me being able to only cry when somebody dies to that for me takes it to a little bit too much of an extreme I think that there are other scenarios that make sense for you

Andrew Wilsonto cry well hang on let's let's focus on the one thing at a time so let's just take the the like over emotion or whatever okay don't do you think that men view women who cry very differently

Andrew Wilsonthan how women view men who cry yes and I think that's wrong yeah but she might think that it's wrong right but could there be a sense a biological sense of reason for why that might be um I assume

Pixiethat the argument you're going to get to is that like oh um men are supposed to be protectors and if a person's crying can they protect you no I think that it's actually different I think that crying for women can also be a form of

SPEAKER_00self-defense and manipulation whereas physical strength can't be I think that they often employ what are called old white man I disavow any

SPEAKER_00control over pixie she created her own try rck I also disavow any oppression of anyone and feel personally attacked you know nothing of my work oh my gosh all

Andrew Wilsonright you want to be my i' say that there there's defense mechanisms which are in play for both and so for men who cry other men see it even at an intuitive level we don't have any respect for it it makes you more prone

Andrew Wilsonfor attack and things like this uh whereas for women they can often be employed to Great use against men who are much stronger sex whereas if you were to take a look at this for how

Andrew Wilsonwomen perceive other women who cry they seem to be able to see through the super quick right they're like that is full of that chick is full of you know I don't believe her it's crocodile tears they seem to be

Andrew Wilsonable to see right through it so I would say that no I don't think it's just a matter of your environment trains you what's okay to do when it comes to these types of emotions but there there's

Pixiesomething which is ingrained yeah I don't know like to what agree or what level we will agree or disagree with this on I think I do kind of strongly disagree and I guess I strongly disagree

Pixiebecause I do think um human or emotions I think are a very normal part of human processing yeah I'm not saying that they're not I don't mean to catch you off go ahead I think emotions are a very

Pixienormal part of human processing and I think part of that is like being like crying happiness sadness excitement anger um and I think in our society we punish

Pixiemen when they show the sadness we we view them as weak women punish them as women punish them yeah I women if you want to say we're going to if we're going to go back to talking about the

Andrew Wilsonpatriarchy and stuff like that um women definitely uphold the patriarchy I'm saying is that it's not I'm not sure that what you're talking about really as a patriarchy is some kind of fundamental system or a bunch of people trying to

Andrew Wilsonstay in power as much as it is the way that humans actually interact with each other because we're distinct ontologically different creatures would you say that it's maybe like a better description cuz there were matriarchies it was just like patriarchies

Andrew Wilsonconsistently out well there really weren't ever matriarchies there were M there were matriarchs but they really all of their Force conditions for the Monopoly on Force were still upheld by

Kylamen so this isn't totally true what we actually see when you go back to like Paleolithic eras of like Homo sapiens is that patriarchy was just more effective at like coordinating War efforts like

Andrew Wilsonthey just killed every no in Paleolithic societies especially you what you mostly see are uh Chiefs and you see uh men who are high level men you don't see

Kylamatriarchs so you did the problem is that a lot you didn't you did you didn't where okay name a culture uh I actually don't know the names of any Paleolithic culture specifically that do you know that there was matriarchs in absolutely

Kylaso like if you go so there's a really good book I'd recommend it's called sapiens that's by yal Harari and it tracks basically the evolution of like Homo sapiens psychology specifically because we need to understand that like for example a secular argument for

Kylaabrahamic religions is that it's been bar nun the most evolutionarily successful at setting up the best societies ever which is why it's the most dominant thing it's not this like crazy evil thing the same thing with patriarchies it's reasonable to to

Kylapresume especially when you get into like these lost tribes and we do see matriarchies not as often but often enough that they were lots of matriarchies but the reality is that the patriarchy was fundamentally a more

Andrew Wilsoncompetitive organizational system let's um let's grant for a second that even that's true that there was matriarchies within Paleolithic societies okay I'll granted for the sake of argument in

Andrew Wilsonrecorded history of which there's about 6 7,000 years there could be some things pre that but we had like the Alexander or the library Alexandria burned down so we don't know we lost a lot okay so we

Andrew Wilsondon't really know how far back it goes since this is true and we only can go back about 7,000 years if you look at that record there's not really any matriarchies anywhere oh I agree I would say like in it seems to be the case that

Kylalike when tribes were just forming to a space where they were like family competitors against one another that seems to be where matriarchy dominantly lost aren't inherently biolog like

Andrew Wilsonpatriarchy isn't inherently biological it's just more competitive if since the conditions have existed for societies actual societies the way that we understand them which is not tribal throw Spirit things anymore it hasn't

Andrew Wilsonbeen for thousands of years we've had uh the Coalition of societies we have not seen that formula what we've what we've seen and said is strong a strong patriarch it everywhere

Kylaeverywhere in the world basically at all times sure is a lot less masculine than we like to act like it is in many ways like this is actually one of the my biggest frustrations with feminists when they talk about patriarchy is that the most successful patriarchies were

Kylapatriarchies that could socially organize large groups of people and they did so through the inventions of state and the inventions of things like religion these are fundamental to coordinating people Beyond 2 I don't understand how that's not masculine

Kylabecause social coordination and social cohesion and like making social groups work is almost always attributed to being a feminine in literature it's not listen who's organizing who's organizing

Andrew Wilsoncorporations who's in charge who's in government all these these are all these are all orders for social organization exactly because men are allowed to be feminine and feminine and masculine traits are both necessary flouring

Andrew Wilsonsocieties wa wa you're saying that you're only assigning it as being feminine even though when we're looking at the historic record doesn't seem like it's feminine at all seems like it's a very much a masculine trait to be able to do Mass organization especially of

Andrew Wilsonother men especially of other men a thing of which you almost never see or masculine organization I I don't know it could be a neutral but I think I think together I think the way it's done is

Andrew Wilsonmascul or feminine I think that the way women could do it through forms of manipulation backstabber secret telling there's no way that women could do it in like a neutral to positive way they can but it's not often done that way I mean

Kylathat's not true if we look at family line who's that one that like everyone goes to when Grandma dies the family's because she was like the main person coordinating these things come from a long line of strong women right

Andrew Wilsonwomen are often social coordinators who's most talking but we're talking about in society you're giving these little tiny outliers for individual family units we're talking about the majority of society the majority of

Andrew Wilsonhuman history that's recorded majority the majority of societies were completely and totally organized by men and not only were they organized by men but the way in which they were organized

Andrew Wilsonwhich was with kind of the cracking of the whip right here's what the Spartan warriors are going to do here's what our army is going to do the cracking of the whip then you have a really bad understanding of I'm not saying it was

Kylajust anything I'm giving you an example of how this is def not feminine trait I feel like we're disagreeing on something that we don't need to is it not possible that most of the patriarchies which dominantly run by men because men tend

Andrew Wilsonto be more extreme at most Things Incorporated both feminine and masculine traits even though it was still a patriarchy no I wouldn't can no I don't think so I think that even here kind of this the the semantic distinction needs

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