2 TOXIC Feminists RAGE QUIT?! HEATED Debate! | Dating Talk #118

Date: 2023-11-15

Duration: 5h 58m

Guests

Brian Atlas

BBunny (DT118)>

CCaitlyn (DT118)>

AAzure (DT118)>

SSelena (DT118)>

SSavannah (DT118)>

AAndrew Wilson >

SStephanie (DT118)>

CChase (DT118)>

Identified Speakers

SPEAKER_01TTS/Donations(audience)

SPEAKER_02Bunny(guest)

SPEAKER_04Stephanie(guest)

SPEAKER_05Savannah(guest)

SPEAKER_06Caitlyn(guest)

SPEAKER_07Andrew Wilson(guest)

SPEAKER_08Chase(guest)

SPEAKER_10Brian Atlas(host)

SPEAKER_11Nick (producer)(audience)

SPEAKER_12Sava(guest)

SPEAKER_13Azure(guest)

SPEAKER_14Selena(guest)

Key Moments

QuoteStephanie describes converting from boss-babe to submissive wife over years of marriage.

“I really support gender roles I think that they're really important... I have learned to be a submissive wife”

ControversyCaitlyn refuses to concede that men are generally physically stronger than women despite deadlift records, grip strength stats, and Olympic comparisons presented by the hosts.

“I can see in these situations that in comparisons that the men are stronger than the women they are beating the women but I don't know if...”

QuoteChase says he is witnessing 'the case against the 19th Amendment' while watching Caitlyn refuse to answer whether men are stronger than women.

“I'm witnessing the case against the 19th Amendment play out in front of my eyes right now”

QuoteStephanie quotes her husband: 'submit yourself into freedom' as the key to a happy traditional marriage.

“my husband said just submit yourself into freedom because once you do I still get the respect from my husband that I deserve”

ControversyAzure and Savannah clash over whether bikini barista work is sex work. Azure calls Savannah basically a stripper; Savannah denies.

“you're basically a stripper so I don't understand stripper yeah cuz I touch people and I dance on people for money”

QuoteAzure reveals body count: claims ~15, then admits it's definitely higher.

“I think up like 15 think up like 15 yeah up to 15... it's definitely higher than 15 by like ballpark”

QuoteBunny self-rates her looks as 9.3 out of 10.

“9.3”

OtherAzure rage-quits during abortion debate. She says she cannot continue and leaves.

“I'm going to leave I can't I can't with this... Thanks you guys for having me on the Pod I appreciate it and all the differing stuff I just I can't with this”

Topics Discussed

Guest Introductions & Relationship Status

Guests introduce themselves with name, age, occupation. Brian goes around the table on relationship status, longest relationships, rosters, celibacy. Caitlyn shares situationship with Marine. Sava discusses NBA/rapper DMs.

Feminism & The Patriarchy Debate

Main feminist debate: definition of feminism, whether patriarchy exists, whether women are oppressed, wage gap discussion, men vs women physical strength, high school athletes vs female Olympians comparison.

Sex Work Panel Discussion

Debate on sex work, whether bikini baristas count as sex work, Christianity vs bikini photos (Savannah), stripper red flags, customer red flags, whether men should date sex workers. Selena discusses dating as a dancer.

Twitter/Anti-Men Tweets Review

Brian reviews Azure and Bunny's anti-men tweets: 'God I hate men', 'men should be oppressed', fantasizing about lining up and shooting men. Discussion of misandry double standards.

What Is A Woman Discussion

Panel asked to define 'woman'. Bunny: XX chromosomes. Caitlyn: prefers not to answer (lives for trans community). Sava: hard to define. Selena: biological female. Stephanie: adult human female XX chromosomes. Caitlyn/Sava avoid clear answers on whether trans women are women.

Body Count Discussion

Whether body count matters; guests share their counts. Bunny: unknown (under 100). Caitlyn: 4. Sava: single digit. Selena: 10+ (lost count). Savannah: 20-40 range. Stephanie: private/low. Azure: 15-25+. Stephanie says body count matters.

Ratings Round (Self-Ratings)

Guests rate their own looks 1-10. Bunny: 9.3, Caitlyn: 8-9, Azure: 8-8.5, Sava: 8, Selena: 8-8.5, Savannah: 7-7.5, Stephanie: 8-8.5, Chase: 8-8.5, Andrew: 5, Brian: 6-6.5.

Abortion Debate & Walkoff

Debate on abortion triggered by comment about feminism as a patriarchal tool. Stephanie and Savannah argue life begins at conception. Azure rage-quits at ~5:36 saying she cannot continue the debate. Brief closing statements.

Transcript

Page 2 of 7

Andrew Wilsonmatriarchy could you imagine how foolish it would sound if I said oh there was this great matriarchy with a king and princes and everything that wasn't matriarchal right so this is why I'm

Caitlyntrying to get kind of your definition for these systems yeah I defin I understand what you're saying in um I think what I'm saying that's not getting

Caitlynacross the way that I want it to be is that there's different kind of in between the lines depending on what in what situ situation you're talking about matriarch okay so here's a clarifying

Chasequestion for you I'm I'm going to simplify it he asked you if it could still be a patriarchy if there's women at the top managing it and you said if they're upholding patriarchal structures it could still be a patriarchy what what

Chasedo you mean by that what are those patriarchal structures that those women at the top would theoretically be upholding capitalism would be a good example women benefit from capitalism you benefit from that there's benefits

Chasethere's benefits and wait so are you against capitalism theoretically yes I think that there are ways that become better prac in practice you do only fans so theoretically you're not against be able to live I have to be

Chaseable to live so you're taking advantage of capitalism in order to live okay are you more in favor of like Socialism or communism yeah what Sy if you don't like capitalism what system would you prefer to see yeah what's matriarchal

Caitlyncapitalism is when you're working hold on this is a question for her so I guess by definition it sounds very radical of me and I do consider myself to be a radical feminist but I guess communism the defin the very simplistic definition

Caitlynthat I have of Communism the utopian society that I Envision would be a communist society and that is because we would have like a trade and barter system so I could provide you know what I'm good at providing what I enjoy to

Caitlynprovide you could provide to our you know to our shared Society a stess society yes and I think that it would be very complicated to go from where we are right now so I can end this argument very quickly for you we're not arguing

Andrew Wilsonabout it I'm just setting my no no I can actually change your mind about this very hang on I can change your entire mind about this I promise okay inside of your stateless society you would have to have an enforcement arm like police officers or

Andrew Wilsonsomething like this to deal with criminal criminals right wouldn't you how could you enforce a hierarchy inside of your Society without appealing to a hierarchy

Andrew Wilsonto do it why would I need a hierarchy because a stateless society is one without a hierarchy we would agree that that's true so if that is true how could you enforce the Norms of a stateless

Caitlynsociety without appealing to a hierarchy to do so so the Norms that would be in my stateless society um I don't know how big this you know would be but we're talking about a hypothetical I guess so

Andrew Wilsonin my stat Society the Norms would be to commit ethical decisions there would be a what if somebody violates those yeah then what then you're going to then you have enforcement to take care of that

Andrew Wilsonright cuz people will inevitably violate yeah I've had this conversation if people will violate the Norms of that society and you have to appeal to enforcement that is a hierarchy grid One

TTS/DonationsMotorsports donated $200 patriarchy values women protect them and cherish them the idea that it prays on women is absolutely trash

TTS/Donationsintellectualism feminism has failed you how may the patriarchy help you today Bingo is that um Andrew did you want to continue on with your point about if you don't if you don't mind

Andrew Wilsoncourse goad so I'm just saying think about the absurdity here inside of a stateless society there can be no hierarchy if you have a hierarchy you have a state how do you enforce the

CaitlynNorms of your stateless society without appealing to a hierarchy it would be let I I guess it would be somewhat of a hierarchy there's two levels Those who commit ethical decisions and those who do not commit ethical decisions and

Caitlynwhat's you know decided to be ethical is decided upon by the community sure and then so the in my mind the only things that can really come up to me that would require you know severe punishment or uh

Caitlynwhat was the word that you were using enforement enforcement yes would be murder and Essay um there's tons other theft theft all kinds of things I don't in a society when there's not a sense of scarcity I don't think that there theft

Andrew Wilsonwould be a problem unless there's somebody that's a kleptomaniac that would let's take all those off then just violence just violence itself violent crime stuff like that if you're going to have violent crimes inside of a society you're going to have to have enforcers

Brian Atlasbig strong enforcers to go take care of any violent criminals who exist right like that's going to be necessary right do you do you in your society that you envision do you reject the idea that

Caitlynthere would be a criminal element you think it would be impossible for criminality to materialize not necessarily I don't think it would be necessarily impossible but then again I

Chasehaven't seen a case study where Society lives like this you know to see whether not it would why why do you think it would be possible then for there to be a society without crime this stateless society that you're talking about where

Chasenobody's stealing from one another there's abundance everywhere there's no scarcity everybody's conforming to the same social norms there's no hierarchy I mean you're describing what you call communism but this is not this is

Chasecommunism has never played out like this you know you've had like small societies that have been communes where people have shared the same social values and they get along relatively well but like

Caitlyncan you name a single time in history when what you're describing has ever happened at scale um no that's why I said that this was like a Utopia a utopic type this is where my values lie and I do think that it would be very

Andrew Wilsondifficult for a society like the one that we have modernly to transition to the this type of utopian societ it's stateless that would be absent hierarchy even inside of what you're describing is

Andrew Wilsonnot stateless because you say that there is a value group who assesses what is moral and is immoral and is ethical and not ethical that in and of itself is going to be a hierarchy and thus not

Andrew Wilsonstateless I didn't I didn't use the word stateless I didn't bring it up in like you just agreed but that is communism right communism is a stateless society that is what is postulated by communism

Brian Atlasis it not I use the word communism very Loosely it's commune so we're living in a community and ISM you know wait so are you saying in this utopian society that you desire to live in what would be the

Brian Atlaspopulation of said Society cuz currently in the US the population's over what 300 million 330 million okay so are you talking like 200 people something like that would be cool I mean I don't know

Brian Atlashow cuz like I said I haven't seen a case study right so I don't know how many so okay you have your Society of 200 people what do we do with the other 330 million people just in the United

ChaseStates do they also own society that have different ethical systems what was your name again Caitlyn Caitlyn yeah I I say this with all due respect I think this Utopia that you're describing is

Chasefundamentally completely incompatible with human nature and will never exist at scale because and I I don't say this to insult you but because human beings

Andrew Wilsonnaturally organize themselves into hierarchies do you have any you have evidence of this that you could show me all of hisory into when he walked into

Andrew Wilsonthis room to set up the podcast there was a guy who was in charge and he told you to go over there and fill out this form and then he told you where you're going to sit and he told which Mike you're going to speak into and he told you everything the very second we walked

Andrew Wilsoninto this room all of us together the entire room was organized quickly in by hierarchy in a hierarchical structure and everybody was told exactly what their role was yes any any anytime human

Chasebeings organize in a group at all there's always going to be leadership that emerges but there's going to be somebody that's more confident Bolder able to articulate themselves more clearly they're going to rise in the

Chasehierarchy particularly if they exercise good leadership abilities there's going to be people that are less competent uh people also temperamentally are wired in different ways some people are going to

Chasebe more wired to serve others others are going to be more wired to lead and hierarchies are just built into nature all around us yeah and I don't necessarily agree uh or disagree I'm

Caitlynsorry um yeah that's not really super so by hierarchy for me I guess I totally understand what you guys are saying I my visualization of it within this Utopia is very much less intense than what we

Caitlynhave now where there's like you know the the president that rules over everything and all these corporations and um lobbyists and whatever organizations subsidize government decision you like small government I don't mind small

Azuregovernment can I just ask a question quick um you guys will ask for evidence when like the opposing argument speaks but we can't ask for evidence and you

Azureguys you absolutely can would you would you would show us cuz like are you asking about she asked for in terms no you can ask us for evidence but will you show us evidence if we have she did she asked

Chasefor evidence of a hierarchy and I gave her logical our phones and just show you what we can do is just have a conversation where I can reference things that have happened in history and you can reference things that have happened in history and yes I just you

Chaseyou guys may be lying about it you may be telling the truth it's we won't know because we're not going to sit here and take out our phones and look we won't know either if your evidence is true well that's a bit meta it's

TTS/Donationsimagine brat shirt and using brain at same time impossible communism only works when everyone perfect nobody is perfect erone lies imagine pitching

Azurecommunism and not knowing what it is Chase w we have I need to get to one more CH I wasn't the one who made the communism AR about communism I don't I am not speaking on communism ask a

Brian Atlasseparate question sure that's fine hold on wait wait wait let me read this looking forward to hearing from the three next Brian should should be a good convo Chase as always thank you for being a role model for young men and progressing the good news of Jesus Christ Ash Christ ISL Lord uh Brady hey

Brian Atlasthank you very much sorry it took us a little while to get to it I had just one thing related to I think Andrew's questions here did we fully well I'll let donated

TTS/Donations$200 there was a Survivor show where they put all men on one Island and all women on another a couple of days were cold and hungry whereas the men had fire

Brian Atlasfood and it was due to hierarchy that is hilarious it wasil that whole thing was hilarious that's so funny I saw I've seen it yeah um did we get to fully add

Brian Atlasdid you have did you have an answer when it came to the criminality component of your utopian society do you have a solute I don't think it would be really a solution it would I think it would

Caitlyndepend on where the society starts um if we were to to be able to fully and gently deconstruct capitalism in the way that it exists in the way that it exists

Chasetoday then maybe we could heal social wounds for a lack of better terms don't you think this is pretty lofty like where are you learning this stuff where who are you consuming these ideas from

Chaseout of curiosity I've just done a lot of analysis of what's right and what's wrong but you're obviously like listening to influential people from maybe throughout history reading books

Andrew WilsonYouTube podcast I just have one question okay that's it just one can you name two communist thought leaders I said

Caitlynokay that's totally fair and a totally a valid question can you name two communist leers is like the best that I could give you honestly and fairly and I can admit that and I'm very okay with that why in the world would you espouse

Caitlynan ideology you don't even know the names of the thought leaders who espouse spout an ideology you said did you guys or do I believe in Social communism

Caitlynwhatever I said communism just like to Loosely use the term to describe name two socialist thought leaders I didn't say anything about me being socialist I I just I want to add you know I'm going to I'm going to tie all this together

Chasethat you saw that guy Super Chat a moment ago about that uh TV show where the men were on one Island and the women were on the other Island and all the women were cold and hungry I haven't seen it and I would like let's assume let's assume for a moment that it happened earlier in the conversation I

Chaseasked you if you could describe any nonpatriarchal structures uh uh and you referenced communism and socialism and kind of basically agreed to your utopian Vision as like something that could potentially

Chasebe non- patriarchal right have nonpatriarchal values in social structure yes okay in I just want to you know I was talking about human nature before in the kind of society that you're describing a stateless society

Chasewhere there's like abundance and everybody's just like hanging out and they adhere to the same social norms D ethical values instead of social norms ethical values ethical values to his point there is going to need to

Chasebe enforcement because to his point there are going to people there are going to be people that violate the social contract and on top of that the people that are going to be enforcing will be

Chasemen because typically men if you look at all the data men are more often violently criminal than women are women aren't going to be the ones standing up to the violent criminals violating the

Chasesocial contract it's not Deb I'm sorry it's not debatable we're we're way stronger than women are it's going to take men to restrain violent males I don't think

Chasetrue I don't know I don't know of any evidence for men have on average other I can demonstrate men have on average three times upper body strength than women do

Caitlyneven without training raise hand for a while one sec one sec wait do you do you take issue with the position that men are physically stronger than women I don't like that it's used but I don't

Chasehave any evidence for or against I just I think that women can be physically strong say they can't be physically strong I mean she she can H hip thrust

Andrew Wilson600 lb but like if I were to ask you this this easy question pretend that you were in charge of a prison and you could

Andrew Wilsonhire all female prison guards for the most violent criminals on planet Earth or all male prison guards with the exact same qualifications which ones would you

Caitlynhigher the strongest period which ones are going to be the strongest do you think if I have no maybe I can add to that evidence for who's going to be strong maybe I can add to that what do you mean you have no evidence life

Caitlynexperience men are stronger than women are almost always just based off gender I could not pick who is going to serve my people the best here let me let me ask you a question like right let me ask you a question the hundred strongest

Chasepeople in the entire world right now are they men or women I don't know I haven't looked they're men okay and I believe you guys and I support you you it's not supp you the point is this is a layup

Chasethis is crazy the point you're saying that there's no you've never seen any evidence that like basically men are on average stronger than women what about like life like life as a whole like it's obvious there's three men well there's

Brian Atlasthree men cornering her like she can't like I'm trying to Corner you yeah go ahead go ahead Steph what do you mean are big these are big strong women what do you guys have like 10 years on her

Stephanieand like you guys are OB know your points a little bit a lot okay that's mea that's irrelevant when they drafted when there was a draft why would they choose why is it only men that's a good

Stephaniequestion I was well now it's going to have to be women soon so yeah unfortunately because feminists are fighting for equality so now we're going to get it so in the Bible um it's because there's no men going into the AR

Bunnymen are protectors one person at a time you go ahead please yeah it's been stated in the Bible that men are protectors so yeah right because they they do a better job protecting women I

Brian Atlaswill say that yeah I have always felt more protected by my mom than I have okay but that's fine I I would like to ask again the hund strongest people in the world currently are they men or are

Caitlynthey women it's obviously men but since you guys are asking the question I'm going to safely assume that it's men and I do not have a problem with that and I I mean the richest people are men most all

TTS/Donationsthe the billionaires are men grid One Motorsports donated $200 all may be saved through Christ no man can save the girls on the right so

TTS/Donationslet's stop trying there's no Utopia without a Ruder All Ships run the ground without direction or effs fail reality weeps okay it sounded like you had something yeah I've had something like

Bunnyprobably like 10 minutes ago let me think about it cuz I probably forgot it it's like 10 minutes ago I raised my hand um so do you think that a matriarchy Society just means that like

Bunnycuz like he sent that question that was like men on one Island and women on one Island and then the men were fine and the women weren't so do you just think that like Society should be only men no what's like the solution cuz you seem to

Bunnythink that like women don't have like a value in any no no certainly not that's to breed and be the what's the value of a woman if it's not cuz like all you're explaining is that stronger her her

Andrew Wilsonvalue is in her reproductive ability and her ability to take care of her what if a woman was infertile what if what if she was yeah what if she was does that if she was does that mean that her purpose has failed I know but I think

Andrew Wilsonthat it makes her generally speaking less valuable to men inside of that Society wouldn't she say so you like this Society under like a she's less valuable as a person that's not what I

Andrew Wilsonsaid repeat what I said repeat what I said you think Society people would find her let me let me say it again less valuable I said that the men inside that Society where women cannot reproduce or

Andrew Wilsona woman can't reproduce you're probably going to find her less valuable in terms of a dating and romantic yeah well not just in terms of dating and romantic opinion A lot of people don't just walk it through walk it through

Andrew Wilsonlogically do you think that women are equipped to do the same kinds of jobs that men are equipped to do no but are men equipped to do all the same jobs that women areed to do they what job can

Andrew Wilsonwomen do that men can't it's vice versa reproduce I'm sorry not reproduce give birth that's not I mean that's not a job it's part of your biological makeup but when I'm asking you where are all of the

Andrew Wilsonfemale stone masons where's all the female Green Berets there's not a single one there's not a single female Navy SEAL there's not a single raised that [Music]

Savannahwaying let me finish I'm almost done I'm almost done I think that women could hypothetically do those jobs right just like men could hypothetically do a

Savannahtraditional woman's job you guys see the same way L ladies ladies ladies ladies stop stop can I please stop stop but typically right

Savannahstereotypically that there's a reason why men primarily have those jobs and they're better at those jobs right but H what do you think that reason is biology absolutely 100% I I don't disagree with

Savannahyou I'm I'm just saying there's hypothetically there could be an outlier right that a woman could be a green pushing anything as a monolith yeah okay so my argument has nothing to do with

TTS/Donationsanything being bated $2 now that I've heard these Menor members talk I'm feeling really disappointed about none of them wanting to date me looking forward to coming on

Andrew Wilsonthe show soon Brian and great to see Andrew here yeah thank you great to see you too I'm sorry you were too old um love you so just kind of so that you

Savannahunderstand we're not talking in monoliths okay so I'm not saying everyone one can't ever do you said name a job that that a woman can't do that a man can't so talking and I'm clarifying

Andrew Wilsonright now so that you understand this is not a monolith it's I wouldn't even think I'd have to explain this but I guess I do it's not nothing's ever expressed in a monolith so I'm not saying there could never be a hypothetical woman who does X I'm just

Andrew Wilsonsaying that if you look if you look at what men do okay if you look at just basic jobs which are done outside like roofing for instance this is a really good one female physiology actually is not equipped to deal with that because

Andrew Wilsonof heat extremes so you guys like studies you like studies you keep on saying I love the studies the studies are great well here's a great study for you to take a look at women inside of office spaces they get really cold and

Andrew Wilsonthe men don't why why is that do you know why that is can you tell me well I'm asking you do you know why that is I mean physiy is completely different so they can't regulate their temperature in

Andrew Wilsonthe same way that males can regulate their temperature this is why when work outside they're less prone to get heat stroke they're less prone to have all sorts of different issues that women are more prone to have so yes there are

Andrew Wilsonthese kind of physiological barriers not just the well if I was raised to be a construction worker I could be one nope there's still physiological barriers which exist between the two

AzureSexes yes I was never denying that I was just saying that there are still women it's just it's because we're not raised like to do those kind of things men are

Azureraised typically traditionally more masculine and to work more masculine jobs there's not going to be a father teaching most of the time I mean I was taught to do like to fix my own tables

Andrew Wilsonand women do better academically than men do inside of the United States overwhelmingly and they're far more likely to complete their education so who's telling them then not to do these jobs if you say they're not raised or

Azuresomebody's giving them a some kind of barrier to entry I just think it's a I just think it's like a pointless argument because like yes it's a more male dominated field to do like these hard labor jobs but you guys

Brian Atlassimultaneously will complain about like Building Society and how you guys are the so before I get to you you wanted to

Savacome in you raising your hand right uh I mean this was this was actually from from a really long time ago this was an entirely different topic it was actually over the topic of um you know prostitute

Caitlynprostitution and everything like that and that was that was a long time ago this is in go ahead um with the jobs in the or the mentioning of the jobs in the education

Caitlynwomen weren't allowed to get jobs and get educated like until within the last what was it a century or the last century or even half of a centur women

Andrew Wilsonwomen have always always done better at education than men have inside the United States you're only talking they were raised to get married and have children they weren't allowed

Andrew Wilsonlet if you don't let me finish the point you won't even know what I'm saying okay my apologies what you're talking about is you're talking about when women started going to higher education universities and things like this try to

Andrew Wilsonunderstand the educational distinctions here that a college degree now is worth far less than it used to be because as more people are allowed to go do X thing the standards necessarily have to get

Andrew Wilsonlowered always so you're always applying to the lowest common denominator would you agree that that's

Andrew Wilsontrue can you rephrase that yeah so pretend right that before College was about rewarding the best in the

Andrew Wilsonbrightest only the smartest could go okay the smartest everywhere those were the ones who went to college but now anybody can go do you think that they would have the same standards as when only the smartest people could go if now

Andrew Wilsoneverybody could do it I just feel like that's another probing question yeah it is a probing question so I'd like you to answer it though I mean I guess I don't have a hard opinion on college or I mean

Azurelogically if if now yes they want they would want the smart almost entailed it in the question want yes they would want the smartest people like

Brian Atlasno okay here let me let me get a couple chats in um I'm just I'm dumb woman sorry okay this is Sor this is the most quiet I've ever this he sent this again

Brian Atlasas a TTS the next time we debate I'll have to remember to invite okay um oh he sent it as a TTS in the Super Chat I see good to see you in the chat James appreciate it Conan 19 Harley Quinn from

Bunnywish definitely has a joker in her DMS do you have the Joker in your DMs no but I do get called Harley Quinn on like a daily so thanks I guess wait why that

Savais oh what you would kind of like her yeah yeah and I'll take it she's so actually sorry I did want to come back to one point cuz I I didn't make my point earlier about the whole

Savaprostitution basically you did insinuate earlier that um you know prostitution was perpetuated by women you know seeking to gain more money and everything like that um I mean overall I

Savado want to say that basis like it came from the consumerism of men there obviously women seeking to you know gain money and everything like that but that

Chasewas highly based that started later okay there there was male demand and what he's saying is women chose to supply for

Chasethat demand just like just like you guys recognize that there's male demand for you know visibility of your bodies and you choose to supply that demand it's

Savathe same thing yeah I mean do you think men currently are forcing women to go into like only fans for example or no one honestly honestly right now currently there is um a lot more fair

Savabasis and a lot more consent to go into it but I early on in time you know like um a lot of people and women were forced you know to go into prostitution and

Savaeverything like that um and even now like I have two friends that were human trafficked at a young age um by two male figures like it's it's still currently happening to this day where people are

Chasebeing forced into that sex work so I think there's that that definitely does happen and it's terrible but a lot of women also choose to do it and have chosen to do it I just want to make sure I got this

Andrew Wilsonclear but are you saying that all women all women who were prostitutes all of them were forced into it no not at all I'm saying that um I

Savafeel like you came you came at that point like you were saying that um that that field was you know created by women looking for money and everything like

Brian Atlasthat when it did it started from coercion it was not we're we're going to move on we going to move on nope we're

Brian Atlasmoving on okay so cuz I made a good point but it's okay you had mentioned patriarchy um I'm just curious so

Brian Atlasperhaps we can get a sense of what the patriarchy is and but I do want to go around the table on this do you believe that there is a patriarchy just I think

Savathis is a yes or no uh I'm go around the table just like plain yes or no question sure uh yes yes yes of course uh I believe there's

Savapatriarchal of I believe there's patriarchal values definitely in the majority of societies just because um you know throughout Society males have definitely been in the leadership roles

Savaand everything like that I wouldn't say that there's a necessary like straight patriarchy and that's the only way you can look at it but there are definitely patriarchal values in most

Savasocieties where men lead yes no I think we're in a little bit of patriarchy Society okay I actually think that the patriarchy is

Chasenecessary it's a necessary entailment of descriptive reality yeah I would also say uh patriarchy is a real thing I would disagree with your guys's definition of

Chaseit uh I also view patriarchy as a principle to be a a very good thing and as somebody said in the Super Chat earlier during the show I think patriarchy is something that has

Chasehistorically actually protected women so one of one of the patriarchal structures what you want to move on no no no but I mean I want to ask the women here what is the patriarchy yeah I was actually about to ask them to the same thing or

Brian Atlasif you have a contribution well you've you've asserted that it exists so the burden is on you to articulate what precisely he said exists too I didn't say that I can I can articulate how I

Brian Atlassee patriarchy but Brian's asking you I mean if you're asking my my own view I don't think there's a patriarchy because I think we live in the go Centric Society but um what's your um I think

Bunnythe patriarchy so from the beginning can you talk straight into the mic please yeah okay so we were always

Bunnyraised with our parents and our grandparents and um the advice that I was given through my mother and theice

TTS/Donationsadvice that I was given through my my male family members hold on Modest heima donated $200 brixon thanks for saving me the

TTS/Donationstime money and brain cells by raising the TTS Chase going to be headbutt that my call night long Madison welcome back

TTS/Donationsgirl one comma 3 read a book please at whatever shorts too yo jaama thank you man appreciate it go ahead yeah do you not think that saying

Bunnyyour parents Grand speak your mic please yeah so when you are raised traditionally you're raised by your father and your mother and your father does the certain task and your mothers do do the certain task so patriarchy is

Bunnyalso like kind of aligned with like traditionalism and you guys like traditionalism I'm not ever saying specifically I hate the patriarchy I'm saying that there's things that get to a certain point where

Bunnyit's not about protecting women and it's not about the protection of every every body it's about making your power the

Bunnymost in the room gotcha but so what what is the patriarchy is being primarily raised by a father or a father figure

ChaseSociety you're saying patriarchal Traditions within the family are the patriarchy societally cuz what I what I heard you say is there's patriarchal tradition within families but there's

Bunnyalso men in society it sounds like you're saying that exploit women families are in society okay go ahead what what is the

Caitlynpatriarchy I think it's less about like who's on top of our society well I mean you can see that there is a patriarchy within or in how our government works there's a lot of men on the top you know

CaitlynCEOs and politicians and stuff like that but more intrinsically I believe that it's has to do with the social values that we hold you know like she kind of like she said within our families but

Caitlynmore of like within our day-to-day actions within the way that we as women and um even you as men can go about things so like I think it's more about social values and social occurrences so one

Caitlynthing with how the patriarchy affects men for example is men's abil ability to express their feelings so it's often said that men canot thoroughly Express their feelings or do not feel safe to

TTS/Donationsexpress their feelings because it's viewed as like feminine or grid One Motorsports donated $200 I am patriarch I protect and value

TTS/Donationsmy wife and children they sleep under the blanket of protection I provide the leader of the family the Bedrock upon all that is built you should be as fortunate yeah thank you're good so you

Brian Atlaswere you were saying that men can't express their feelings because of the patriarchy I I would patriarchal value I would actually argue that's something

Caitlynthat women enforce on men not that other men enforce on other men most I don't know most women that I've encountered have been not really caring or like

Caitlynpretty neutral and if if not not really caring about men no about men contributing their feelings so like neutral about I guess okay not negative

Caitlynthey're more positive in accepting of it from the women that I've met now I do understand that there are women that are not AC acting of men's feelings if that does that I'm sort of more so talking about vulnerability and typically when

Brian Atlasmen display vulnerability in a romantic and dating context that's typically punished by potential romantic Partners yes very much so absolutely potential okay

Chasepotential romantic Partners or a romantic partner both in your L ladies ladies I I I would argue as far as potential romantic Partners go

ChaseI mean women if if a guy is showing if a guy wants a girl and he's showing weakness early on in the relationship or like maybe is too deep in his feelings and negative emotions heard it from many

Chasegirls gives them the ick real fast makes them unattracted but what I would also say is if a man has an established romantic relationship with a woman and she really respects him and is very

Bunnyattracted to him that gives the man room to open up and be vulnerable with like weakness or those like yeah so maybe there's just certain times and places where people should be vulnerable like I'm not going to come up here and then

ChaseCy about my problems and expect you to be empathetic with me because we don't know each other like that yeah no I know but it's it's less about it's less about that there's certain times and places to

Chasebe vulnerable and it's hold on it's to Brian's point that uh she's saying that men not expressing their emotions is a is because of patriarchal structures disincentivizing

Chasemen from expressing their emotions but the reality is if I take a girl out on a date and I start crying about something in the beginning of the date there's like a 75 to 90% chance it's going to give the girl the ick which is to Brian's point that this is something

Chasethat's often regulated by females would wouldn't that turn you off too if a girl cried it on it first day well I mean it depend it depends it would be it would be more socially acceptable and it

Savannahdepends it wouldn't be yes it absolutely would there's no question no question I like it yeah like if you go to a party and cry in the cor kind of like oh poor girl the guy's doing it you're like what the hell in

Chaseany case to keep it moving on did you want did you want ladies ladies ladies Ladi that's you Azure Azure we asked you earlier before the show began please respect the

Chaseshow's rules you keep violating them let's have a civil discussion with one person talking did you want did you want to add anything to your sense of what the patriarchy is I think that was a pretty solid

Azureexample of what the patriarchy does in our society what about you well you asked for the definition correct your definition for my definition um so in my

Azureopinion it's the hierarchy of um male males in American society politically

Azureand socio sociologically yeah soci societally yes okay the roles of is there more to that sentence or it's just that men are throughout the hierarchy

Brian Atlasand yes there's a hierarchy with that's my definition and men so are you saying men occupy the top positions of power uh both politically in corporations Etc

Savaokay perhaps Society too okay what about you I think you said that you believe there's a patriarchy right yeah I mean I think you know a patriarchy is definitely defined by you know the predominant male leadership roles in a

Savasociety right okay um and you know I think it is it's pretty true that you know throughout our society you know women had the inability to vote for example right women had the inability

Savaover 100 years ago but I'm not sure if the inability to vote is evidence of a current patriarchy but yeah yeah yeah no but I'm saying you know like throughout our society right that's that's definitely kind of been a factor right

Savaand I think we're off okay so you're talking historically yeah of course yeah and I think you know we are off a lot better um now I think there are still you know some political roles you know

Savasome roles and you know bigger companies and everything like that where you can still see male dominated roles but I feel like as a society we are

Brian Atlasbecoming a lot more equal but I think there are still some leftovers okay sure and then lastly with you and then I have a followup go ahead oh yes I did think there was a patriarchy what is it I

Selenathink it's a male dominated world but I also think men will continue to lead but like she said earlier there there could be the outlier of woman but in my opinion I just feel like it's male dominated um so question for you for

Brian Atlasthose of you who believe in the patriarchy patriarchy are women

Caitlynoppressed I mean yeah okay not in every way but yeah I think the patriarchy is a tool for oppression

Azureokay I the oppression is a very hard word but yes there is a lot of under patriarchy women are essentially oppressed yeah but

Savathat's a very heavy word to just it's a trigger word or whatever I think I think honestly currently now there is like um a huge step up for women where women are given the opportunities for better

Savaeducation you know roles into bigger companies everything like that and I think you know there is still you know points of

Savalike where um you know men might look at women as you know like not being able to lead and everything like that and I think there are still those stereo ypes

Savapresent but I think women are getting to the point where they're able to I think I would agree with what she said I don't think we're fully oppressed

Brian Atlasbut it's being worked on okay under patriarchy are men oppressors um not all of them I guess but okay some of

Caitlynthem I think it is a tool that can be used by both men and women and it affects both men and women so there are women that use the patriarchy to oppress both men and women it's just about using

Caitlynum consciously but it's like I said it's very socially ingrained so like in a lot of our actions and even the things that we say like the way that we use words it's it can be very subtle and then it

Andrew Wilsoncan be very extreme as well what would an example be of a woman who utilizes the patriarchy in order to oppress somebody um it would be the kind of like the example that I provided earlier

Caitlynwhere you guys were talking about how women will shame men for being vulnerable women are using the patriarchal structure the patriarchal standards that have been created I don't know if there was a specific person that

Caitlyncoined that yeah but why would that be oppression why would that fall under the oppression category it is very emotionally damaging for men to not feel like they can talk about their feelings right okay hold on um under patriarchy or men

Azureoppressors um I just I don't like using the op the oppressive like I don't like that debate well you

Azuresaid women can be oppressed so yes so and I can't find a lighter word than oppression but yes okay what about you

Savaum no not necessarily um I mean the entire terminology kind of bases like off a society as a whole so I think it's just you know okay go ahead no okay so

Brian Atlasone or two more follow-up questions here you guys are women your feminists most I think all of you believe in the patriarchy are you

Bunnyoppressed I've gotten used to the position that I've been put in that you've been put in when you say the position that you've been put in is it an oppressed position

Brian Atlasum it could be seen by that by some yeah okay so let let me clarify the question are you oppressed and if so

Bunnyhow um I'm press I guess yeah um the way that I started doing sex work at 18 um I started two weeks after I turned 18

Chasebecause I was on social media a lot um at age of like 16 hold on let's hold on let's save the story Brian's question was are you oppressed and if so how yeah

Bunnyyeah I'm telling you how um being told at age 16 17 that you're going to be making hundreds and hundreds of dollars if you sell them content of you

Chasenaked is that not like is that oppression or opportunity you think that's an opportunity well hold on privilege we privilege I wouldn't even say that's a privilege respectfully

Chaserespectfully I think that you have a serious victim confli complex you said that you were put in this position but you're also telling me that someone came to you and told you hey you money not one person so okay multiple

Chasepeople told you hey you can make a lot of money if you do this work and then did you make the decision to start doing the work or were you forced into it did you make the decision you want me do you want like a really I'm I'm just

Chaseyou don't want traa dump so I'm not going to explain it to you that's you said don't traa dump and you said don't make a personal attack and I feel like you are I'm not I'm not trying to make a personal attack but you're telling me that you were okay let's let me put it

Chasethis way you're telling me that you were essentially forced you were put in this position and I'm asking I want to say this respectfully were you forced by someone into this position like were you

Bunnytrafficked into it or was it a choice that you made yeah respectfully I'm not going to answer that question that's like not something I'm comfortable answering okay

Bunnycould you make the choice to leave the industry yeah but you don't want to no because I feel fine now so you're making the decision to stay in this position

Brian Atlasyeah because I feel great now about myself okay uh okay how are you oppressed or are you oppressed how are you

Caitlynoppressed as woman I would say okay yes I'm oppressed and I would say that more than likely unless you are a billionaire everybody in this room is oppressed and

CaitlynI'm not saying you have to agree with me but from the perspective that I take with capitalism and the other social issues I would say to put put it shortly

Brian AtlasI'm oppressed and everybody is or most A lot's not a billionaire is oppressed it's very complicated that's that's but I'm you're you're talking

Brian Atlasabout class oppression I'm we're talking about patriarchy so I suppose gender as a woman how are you oppressed

Brian Atlasyeah do men oppress you are you oppressed as a woman yes how so

Caitlynum I guess wage difference would be a good example just generally okay um a specific example example for

Caitlynmyself yes okay being uh viewed differently and being viewed as dumb or less intelligent simply because I'm a woman or a young woman how how how do you know that that you're

Andrew Wilsonbeing viewed in that way because you're a woman yeah versus you just say maybe you just say dumb stuff like maybe that's why people view it that way instead of it being because you're a woman so he's asking what's the

Andrew Wilsondistinction between maybe you're saying dumb stuff versus they see say see it this way because I'm a woman because I know if men were saying the same stuff that I'm saying they would be respected and like in this

Chaseconversation I'm going be honest if if a man was saying the same stuff I I wouldn't respect him more for saying it because he was a man and I would actually go a lot harder against what he was saying Andrew Andrew do you have anything on the wage Gap cuz she

Chasementioned that I've got something I've got something you said that you do only fans yeah it's very small very small but yes so uh men who do only fans make a fraction of what women make on only fans

Chasewould you say hold on would you say that men who do only fans are oppressed because there's a wage gap between them and women and is it due to sexism the wage gap on lonely fans is that due to sexism

Brian Atlasactually and demand but so why is it supply and demand when women have an advantage but when men have an advantage in some field it must be evidence of sexism wage Gap and patriarchy no

Bunnybecause this is a this was a business based offo it's just not yeah this is an industry based off of sex so well okay let's talk do you let me ask you question less like there are not as many

Bunnygay people as there are straight like gay men who want to buy porn do not why don't straight women why don't straight women want to consume because I don't want I don't want to buy porn not at the

Brian Atlassame frequency that that men do but let me ask you let me ask you guys a question let me ask you guys a question hold on hold hold on okay um do you think for example the WNBA or women's soccer right you hear stories they're

Brian Atlasthey're paid less than their male counterparts WNBA players make far less than male NBA players do you think that that is evidence of a a wage Gap do you think that that's sexist you think watch

Caitlynit but do you think it's unfair go ahead um I think it's less of a wage Gap and more of um men so men are the main consumers of sports content right and then they generally don't have a lot of

Chaserespect for women's sports they don't maybe they just don't want to watch it just like women don't want to watch male Sports sorry for interrupting but like or M only fans yeah yeah I would think of it the same way as like the only fans

Caitlynit's a um almost like being an independent contractor there's no set wage now for other jobs where there are set wage wages like the medical

Caitlynprofession um or like the medical field um you can see a huge gap Gap in men's salaries versus women's salaries work in the medical field

Brian Atlasyes wait are you tell are you telling me that female doctors and male doctors get paid vastly different wages yes the exact working the same hours with the same credentials in the exact same discipline that's according to the

Caitlynstudies that what's what were the male wages and were the female wages I mean I can pull them up real quick if you want to come back it's probably just a fraction but it's still there well just going back to the I need the exact

Chasenumber I would well I I honestly I'm calling cap I think if there's hold on I think if there's a male doctor and if there's a female doctor and they have the same degrees the same qualifications they're working the same job let's use

Chasesurgeons as an example extremely highly paid if they're if they have the same degrees and qualifications they do the same kinds of surgeries and they work the same hours I would be willing to bet

Bunnythey're making the same money but you have any yes they are probably more likely to get hired yeah because they can pay the women less no they

Chasecan't they pay no if there if there was a hospital that had listings for surgeons and there was a female surgeon and a male surgeon and they were doing the exact same job but they were paying the woman way less because she was a

Brian Atlaswoman she could probably file a lawsuit against that hospital and sue them to High Heavens this this has been leg legislated since the 1960s if it was the case that corporations could get away

Brian Atlaswith paying women 25% less 30% less whatever the number is corporations would just hire women if as a businessman if I could save 30% on wages

Brian Atlaspaid to employees I would and they were just as competent I would of course just be hiring women but in the eyes of the would you hire all women if he could

Andrew Wilsonsave 30% on his have I don't have a questions is like this right to frame it easy I didn't get to answer the if you are if you are the head of a corporation let's say you're one of these female

Andrew WilsonCEOs okay and you see that you can pay women less than you can their male P counterparts to get the same amount of work out of them then why wouldn't corporations leverage that in order to

Caitlynbring in more women employees and pay them less that's the question yeah that's a good question I'm not a CEO I honestly don't know I don't know how they do it cuz like you guys said it's illegal it's technically

Azureput them at lower there's a there's a hierarchy in all jobs so the men get the the bigger they get the bigger parts of

Azurethe jobs they get the better employment okay benefits so there's like there will be someone ahead of a company um and then you know people working around them

Azureare mostly men and then under those men there's the women like in American Psycho where you know Patrick bman had his assistant that was a woman she she obviously is getting paid less and that's usually their part wait she's

SPEAKER_09getting paid less what do you mean she's obviously getting paid less Patrick you don't even know how much Patrick bait's assistant is getting paid because fical movie I know wait so are you saying the assistant isn't he a lawyer in is he a

Brian Atlaslawyer in that film investment he's an investment banker but so the assistant should be paid as much as the investment banker no he's saying she's definitely getting paid less cuz she's a woman no I

Brian Atlasam saying even though we don't know her wage in the movie versus the other am iexist male assistant you guys misconstrued my entire what I was trying to get at so I would like to finish I

Azureneed to return some tapes but go ahead um I'm saying that they're hired at lower positions that than the men in those in

Azurewhatever I'm I'm speaking from um like when you're working when you're working sorry I didn't mean to press

Azurethat my bad um thank you but um yeah it just there's a hierarchy so yes there's going to be more men that are the investment bankers One Motorsports

TTS/Donationsdonated $200 I refute wage Gap wish I could have gotten hired only on the basis of being a woman the Privileges a woman is

Azureafforded are off the chart thank the patriarchy and I wanted to finish the part about me cuz you guys asked before how are you are you oppressed how are

Azureyou oppressed I was going to answer I don't believe that I am oppressed because I make a good wage um I mean as a woman Society I've been treated different we when I don't know if you've

Azurehad the you know are you going to get kidnapped when you're a child when you're a little boy did your mom pull you aside and tell you um these things that you're going to be a victim you know my mom was terrified I would be

Azurekidnapped yeah so but a lot of men aren't told those things like women are raised that way way to where we well actually speaking speaking but I don't

Azurebelieve now I'm saying now but I believe in general yes that women are oppressed but I am at a place of

Azureum um well just just I want to add one little point I have more there's people that can't speak for themselves that are of less status I make enough money I

Azurehave my own apartment I'm able to pay my own bills and that kind of thing so I don't believe that I am oppressed because I work by myself like personally but when you were a young child you were oppressed because there were fears I'm

Azurenot saying the oppression thing I'm saying that I don't believe I'm oppressed but sex workers in general and women are

Azureoppressed yes like the lower lower the stat to do women are of lower status so they generally societally lower status

Andrew Wilsonyes besides being with you know able to get free drinks at a bar which is like wonderful cool not being subject to military conscription what what is it when you say status what do you mean by

Andrew Wilsonstatus what do you mean by there a lower status in society BEC women are just of lower status we're not taking different stat that's rather sex

Azurestat so if I ask you mean I guess he's not making that statement I mean I guess consider me sexist no no no but what I'm saying is is that if I ask you what makes I'm genuinely trying to I say what makes them lower status and you say

Andrew Wilsonbecause they're lower status it's it's regressive so you're just kind of restating the claim how are they lower stat how what makes them lower status

Azuresocietally there's there's a hierarchy there's just a hierarchy men are up here women are here depending on what can women not do

Azurethat men can and then what can women do you think do you think men are more valued than women yes absolutely and ask especially if

Chasesex one of the rules that we talked about at the beginning of the show is when either of us are talking you need to stop Brian wanted to ask you a follow-up question you keep talking over

Chaseeverybody else on the panel okay let him host the show please start to get fed up with it try I'm trying to I'm just bouncing I know you're trying I know you're making a lot of different points all right it's it's okay it's okay I'm

Brian Atlasnot not trying to disrespect I'm trying to off the okay fine it's fine I'll continue the conversation so if it is the case that men are more valued than women why is it the case

Brian Atlasthat throughout all of human history when there's a war for example men are the ones who are sent to war to go and to die in my view I believe that men are actually viewed as the Disposable sex I

Brian Atlaswould argue that women are more valued because when it comes down to Warfare men are going to be the ones that are sent to war to go and die men are disposable women are

Azurevalued um when women went to war in the 50s or when men went to war in the 50s are you talking about the Korean War what are you talking about what what I'm not well versed in which war did women

Azurego yeah which war which war did women go to but there was when there's a certain war time period where women were taking the work they were doing all they were sending the clothes they were in the workshops is that them going to war or

Brian Atlasbeing part of the war effort they would have to just let me finish please but go ahead no I was you interrupted me go ahead go ahead go ahead I'm okay I'm gonna no go ahead go ahead go ahead I would like you to

Brian Atlasfinish just go ahead I'm but you said when women went to war but I think you were talking I was trying to clarify your point I think you were trying to say that women were assisting with the war effort but are

Brian Atlasyou talk in I think you were referencing World War II women did not at least in the United States there's maybe one Russian sniper Division I maybe not I might be using the wrong word there

Brian Atlaswomen in Mass were not involved in World War II uh from a combat perspective but so what were you

Chasesaying I forgot okay just just out of curiosity out of hold on hold on hold on I'm really tired of this conversation out of curiosity for you two do you guys feel oppressed in society as women I

Savannahfeel privileged you feel privileged why do you feel privileged there's a bunch of things as a woman that I can get away with that men can't like what like certain kind of expectations okay like

Savannahsay we're walking on on a sidewalk and some person comes up to me I could I would expect them like and did something weird or you know made me feel uncomfortable nine out of 10 times like say I'm walking around in Seattle

Savannahthere'll be another guy that's like Dude what what are you doing right but if a dude gets in an argument with another guy like it's a fight right yeah um I I don't I feel valued I feel like there's

Chaseso many things that I can do I feel like I'm picked over men a lot um because I am a woman what do you what do you think of the narrative that women are just oppressed throughout all of society by

Previous 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 Next