Destiny vs. Lila Rose, Kristan Hawkins Abortion Debate | Whatever Debates #1

Date: 2023-06-22

Duration: 4h 19m

Guests

Brian Atlas

DDestiny (Streamer)>

KKristen Hawkins >

Identified Speakers

SPEAKER_01Kristen Hawkins(guest)

SPEAKER_02Lila Rose(guest)

SPEAKER_03TTS/Donations(audience)

SPEAKER_04Dave Chappelle (clip)(audience)

SPEAKER_05Brian Atlas(host)

SPEAKER_07Destiny(guest)

Key Moments

QuoteDestiny clarifies his position as 'pro-abortion' not 'pro-choice'

“I prefer to characterize my position as pro-abortion not pro-choice”

Key MomentKristen raises artificial womb technology as a future argument that would decimate the bodily autonomy justification for abortion

“the artificial womb technology... will decimate the bodily autonomy argument... a woman simply can choose to take the child out from her womb and implant it into an artificial Room to Grow”

QuoteDestiny mocks the steel-man he was asked to give for the pro-life side

“why the f*** would I give them any legal hey whatsoever... all pro-lifers... the only way they can ever win any argument is with charts or graphs”

Key MomentSteel-man exercise: Lila Rose identifies emotional tragic cases (rape/incest) as the most effective pro-choice argument

“the most effective pro-choice pro-abortion arguments are the appeals to extreme emotion and very tragic cases”

QuoteDestiny says an 11-year-old rape victim should not be charged with murder for seeking abortion, but maintains abortion should still be legal beyond 20 weeks in that context

“if it's already a baby why the f*** would you have an abortion just because somebody's younger is going to be dramatically inconvenienced”

Key MomentBurning hospital trolley problem: Destiny poses embryo vs. crying toddlers scenario

“you're in a burning Hospital... there are two children crying on the bed... next to them there's a tray of 10 Frozen embryos... what's the morally correct choice”

QuoteDestiny concedes it would be unethical to abort a pre-conscious fetus for eugenic/racial reasons, but says this is wrong because of the eugenics, not because of killing the fetus

“practicing Eugenics is unethical... even if that means having an abortion of a five-week-old but it's not wrong because you're killing a five-week-old it's wrong because you're practicing Eugenics”

QuoteDestiny calls the pro-life guests 'evil' (unironically) for advocating banning abortion

“you two are evil okay unironically you guys are like out here like get abortion rights and everything banned from all of human society I think that's kind of evil”

QuoteDestiny discloses he was pro-life when his son was conceived; says he would have had an abortion if he had been pro-choice at the time

“I was super pro-life when my kid's mom was pregnant so we had a conversation and I can't have an abortion if I'm pro-life... I would have an abortion about my pro-choice plan”

Topics Discussed

Introductions and opening positions

Brian introduces the debate format. Destiny states pro-abortion position: consciousness begins ~20-24 weeks, no personhood before that. Lila Rose and Kristen Hawkins state pro-life position: all humans have rights from fertilization.

Personhood and consciousness debate

Central debate: what defines personhood? Destiny argues consciousness is the key marker. Pro-life side argues human = person from conception. Discussion covers corpses, comas, brain death, dependency, and the seed-vs-tree analogy.

Artificial womb as compromise

Brian asks panel about artificial womb technology as a middle ground. Lila Rose expresses concern about severing natural mother-child bond but acknowledges it would undermine the bodily autonomy argument. Destiny would support it if government funded.

Terry Schiavo case

Destiny and pro-life guests debate the Terry Schiavo case as an example of determining personhood based on consciousness. Destiny cites court records and autopsy confirming persistent vegetative state; pro-life side disputes the husband's motivations and the medical conclusions.

Bodily autonomy argument

Discussion of bodily autonomy as a pro-choice argument. Kristen raises artificial womb technology as a potential future resolution. Reference to Judith Jarvis Thomson's violinist argument.

Rape and incest edge cases

Steel-man exercise and edge case debate. Pro-life side's best argument: tragic emotional cases (rape, young victims). Destiny's best argument: visual evidence of abortion procedure. Discussion of 11-year-old rape victim scenario and whether pro-life position would charge her with murder.

Superchat Q&A session

Brian reads superchat questions from audience. Topics include: molar pregnancy, Khmer Rouge analogy, abortion pill failure rate, IUD use, eugenics on non-persons, Nazis and disabled children, and the hunter/deer hypothetical.

Eugenics and racial motivation hypothetical

Destiny argues it is wrong to practice eugenics (societal racial breeding plans) but maintains this is separate from whether killing a pre-conscious fetus is wrong. Pro-life side challenges the logical consistency.

Plan B and contraception as abortifacients

Discussion of Plan B's mechanism (may prevent implantation of fertilized egg). Destiny acknowledges this. Kristen raises copper IUD as emergency contraception recommended by Planned Parenthood. Debate over whether fertilization or implantation is the relevant moral line.

Dave Chappelle abortion clip reaction

Panel reacts to Dave Chappelle stand-up clip where he says women have the right to choose but men should have the right to 'financial abortion'. Discussion of legal paternal surrender and child support obligations.

Closing discussion and farewells

Panel discusses future topics (sexual ethics, cultural drivers of abortion). Brian plugs guest social media. Destiny jokes about his website. Brief social media plugs for Lila Rose (liveaction.org) and Kristen Hawkins (studentsforlife.org). Dating Talk returns Tuesday the 27th.

Transcript

Page 5 of 5

Dave Chappelle (clip)and if I'm wrong then perhaps we're wrong [ __ ] out for yourselves okay I think that's it um

Kristen Hawkinsthe reaction from the panel comedy reveals Ruth about how our abortion laws in America

Kristen Hawkinsdon't actually make sense that you know men have no rights to say whether or not a woman can choose to pay someone to end the life of her child

Kristen Hawkinshe has no say in the decision at all even though that child is was created with half of his DNA yet she she

Kristen Hawkinsdecides to keep the child and raise a child he wants an abortion he could be put in jail for failing to pay child support I think that's that's uh unfair and it doesn't make sense and I think it emasculates men on our society I know

Kristen Hawkinsmany of us in the pro-life movement believe that child support should actually begin at conception because that would be fair right she has as a mother you have a special role and in

Kristen Hawkinsyour body is is just another human being so men cannot do that um but the man should step up but we should

Kristen Hawkinsallow him to be able to step up so I think it proves the irony some logical consistency in that skit yeah I thought it was funny but it was every point brought up with dog [ __ ] um not the best

Destinynot the best well I mean he also I mean he also made the no uterus no opinion yeah the problem is that like everybody should be interested and invested in whether or not children are being murdered in the United States whether you're a man or woman so the idea that just because you're a dick means you don't have opinion is [ __ ] Beyond

Destinystupid um also the problem with financial abortions is the way that family courts are structured and the way we think about paying child support is we're always thinking about not in terms of what's fair to the mother father we're thinking about in terms of like what's in the best interest of the child and in the best interest of the child if you're

Destinygoing to have a child the child needs financial support if the government's not going to be able to pay then the father has to step up and pay or the mother if the child goes to the father so child support isn't something that's supposed to be fair or you can have a financial abortion if the woman can have a physical abortion child support is just supposed to mean that if a child is

Destinyborn it needs to be financially cared for and some of that financial support should probably come from the two people that made the child usually it's the father paying child support because usually the mother's a caretaker it's an interesting point that you're making and I agree with a lot of what you're saying

Lila RoseDestiny because our court system when it is oriented towards the child's welfare as opposed to the desires of the adults I think that's just because the child is the one that needs The Advocate there and it's the one that's the most

Lila Rosevulnerable I do think sometimes our court systems are not not focused as much on the child and our legal system is not focused as much on the child obviously abortion is Case in point because the woman decides in some cases obviously to have the abortion or she's

Lila Rosecoerced into and she has it and then in other areas in reproductive Technologies because reproductive Technologies most of them are all about the adults Desiring to have a child and in the process of creating all these children a

Kristen Hawkinslot of them are killed or endangered and that's harmful too so but overall I think I mean it doesn't make sense it's like the the lacing Connor Pearson Law here in California in California you can kill your child in an abortion no

Kristen Hawkinsquestions asked that's a celebrated right but if you you are murdered by your husband or your partner on your way to an abortion facility you as a woman are murdered and your child is murdered

Brian Atlashe can be tried with committing two murders hmm does that make sense to anyone yeah well and I have a question here for Destiny related to the Dave Chappelle clip so

Brian Atlasum you know he's sort of talking at the end there what did he say my my wallet my choice or my money my choice um this is obviously directed at someone who's pro-choice

Brian Atlasum what do you have a stance on a legal paternal surrender it's it's I've heard it's called you can't do it no you can't do legal paternal surrender so wait when you say paternal Center are you talking about like the financial

Brian Atlasabortion being able to say I don't want to have any opportunity yeah I mean the I think the term that people who are in favor of it they prefer not to use uh either paper abortion or uh financial

Destinyabortion but uh would you be in favor of of that I mean in a world where the government was subsidized and take care of all of it sure but yeah and it's not happening no you probably have to Pony

Destinyup for the financial support okay okay I think that's totally fine the penalties of um I [ __ ] hate talking about this issue these audiences but the penalties

Destinyof being a single mother that has to take care of a child for 18 years is so infinitely greater than the penalties of paying some child support of which half a [ __ ] fathers don't even [ __ ] pay anyway the idea of like comparing those

Destinytwo things is one of the most [ __ ] [ __ ] things I've ever heard of uttered by virgins is actually one of the stupidest [ __ ] things to complain about the burden of Child Support when you're abandoning your kid to a single mom I don't [ __ ] believable I think

Lila Rosewe have some common ground there Destiny because I do think that that's part of the part of the reason we have so many abortions actually is because yes it's women are choosing these abortions but most women who have abortions actually

Lila Roseare single moms and so they're already dealing with raising a child on their own and a broken relationship with a man who's usually not in the picture and sometimes like you're saying defaulting on child support so I think that is a

Brian Atlasmajor problem well I Destiny I guess my response to you there would be um say that the ramifications impact women

Brian Atlasa bit more greatly but I mean if when it comes to the financial component for example men if uh you know we we did away many years ago

Brian Atlaswith debtors prisons but men who failed to pay child support um perhaps they're in some Financial uh bad financial position uh they're going to uh get locked up in jail go to the

Destinycourt and work it out rearrange her we can read your child support is usually based on your income your ability to pay you you figure that out when you know I pay child supports I know they're like it's based on your income and everything like you it's not like they're going to take a guy that's

Destinyearning one thousand dollars a month and he's got to pay ten thousand dollars a month to his rich single mom who's driving around in a Ferrari because of all the money she's making on child support like or if it's really that big

Brian Atlasof an issue as much like wear a condom don't get somebody pregnant but what if the guy is Indigent so he just what are you guys what Indigent is that

Brian Atlasthe right word yeah impotent like homeless no money oh he can't afford We're not gonna pay [ __ ] anyway what do you mean right but I I mean I'd

Brian Atlashave to look into it further but my understanding is even if you uh don't make any money if you fail to pay child support that puts you at risk of being incarcerated well I think the courts get into the details of the situation

Lila Rosebecause if you are like you're homeless because of some medical injury or something or you have a mental health condition they will take that into account because usually there's Court proceedings where the woman's trying to get the money from the um you know from the man so it depends on the

Brian Atlascircumstances you know what you did make another interesting statement there though Destiny and and uh you said that well the man if he's concerned with the financial ramifications of pregnancy

Brian Atlasand having a child then well he should just not have sex that's a rather pro-life students on campuses every time it's very rather Bronze Age pro-life position

Destinyof you to take that's a pro-life position at all well it seems like almost it's a cautious position right because my listen my rule is I only not in women that make more money than I do okay so if I got somebody pregnant they got the money to take care of their [ __ ]

DestinyI don't knock up any [ __ ] broke [ __ ] that's how you live your life boom there's nothing Bronze Age about that also my pro-choice my wife gets knocked up we're getting an abortion we're driving out of the abortion clinic like boom have the conversation for you like I don't know what to say you have

Destinysome amount of ability to exercise your um Reproductive Rights with a woman I mean if you're worried about her getting pregnant be careful either use multiple forms of birth control don't use birth control make sure she's got a really long staircase I mean whatever you have to do but I mean once the child is born

Destinyit has to be provided for it you can't just like oh well I didn't want to oh I don't know because now you have a living person that is whose life is gonna be material impacted by the financial contributions you make so at that point you have to consider the best interest of the child world you know would have could have should have had an abortion

Destinyor should have [ __ ] or whatever you're past the point at that point so well sure it's not fair it's not really fair because sometimes people want men especially want to argue this point of fairness it's also not fair that women have to carry and deliver kids but like like all red pillars like to say life isn't fair it's not always Fair men and

Destinywomen aren't the same men have to Pony up a little bit more in the financial responsibility side women have to [ __ ] deliver kids and have periods and be annoying in general so like it's life isn't fair that's just the reality of the situation right well I think I mean I think we agree a

Lila Roselot with you on on a lot of that Destiny except for the long staircase comment you were saying something earlier interest that was interesting I don't know if you want to talk about it Destiny before the camera started about you used to be pro-life now you're a pro-choice but you have a son and then

Destinyyou made some comment about you wouldn't something about yourself what's that yeah I would have an abortion about my pro-choice plan but I was super pro-life when my kid's mom was pregnant so we had a conversation and I I can't have an abortion if I'm pro-life

Destinybecause I feel like a hypocrite do you feel are you a son would hear this that would affect it no I tell it so what do you mean it's you told you told your 12 year old son I'm super Frank but he knows me and his mom are split up it's not like we chose that Arrangement like we want to be split or whatever but like

DestinyI still love it I think that affects your child it doesn't he knows I love him we hang out we have fun like I talk to him I love him but like I'm not gonna I love you now but I could have killed you or if I was before he existed

Kristen Hawkinsbut he he was in existence because he was alive okay are we going to redo the whole conversations human beings are in existence you're saying they're not persons but they're still in existence

Destinybecause they are I mean what I'm saying is their hearts are beating what I'm saying is I don't treat my kid like an idiot he sees he has two separated parents so obviously the situation is not ideal but I love my kid of course I don't like now that I have him I wouldn't kill him right we could

Lila Rosehave had an abortion I mean maybe it's something but you tell him that that you would have had you would have aborted him I don't know if you said like I make jokes about it but yeah but I can bring him for the next conversation and we'll see hopefully he thinks it's a joke because I mean it probably would be hard to hear I don't think I don't think

Brian Atlaswe're all traumatized the same way but maybe he might be trying to I think I'm a little traumatized yeah I would have killed you absolutely I say it just like that too all right we have our last chat here king of Arena yeah thanks for the donation man I'm on

Brian Atlasthe fence about whether a fetus is a person but since killing a person is significantly worse than an unwanted pregnancy it seems better to risk being pro-life than pro-choice I'd think even a half or third chance of killing a kid

Kristen Hawkinsis worse that was the point I made earlier when I was asking Destiny about what if he is wrong versus what I am wrong that even if you're not 100 sure this whole argument no I'm just re

Kristen Hawkinsreaffirming what the commenter was saying even if you're not 100 sure if a fetus is a person that you think has rights to life I think we always need to err on the side of caution and that's

Lila Rosewhy I was calling your your choice of saying personality I mean it's the hunter I'm just well it's the hunter hypothetical if you're hunting and you're wrestling in the bushes and it might be a human but it might be a deer do you just shoot before

Lila Roseyou can confirm that this isn't a human this is a deer and you would say well let's make sure I'm actually hunting a deer not a human ear so but that's but there's going to be but hold on when you go hunting there is a chance that you could shoot a person in a deer Subaru

Destinybut if you knew that there was like wandering through them but let's say they're hunting but yeah but even so you could be shooting a guy in a dare suit every time you shoot right well if you knew that there was again in the hypothetical I'm not saying oh we lost

Destinyour life and the hypothesis can we engage with hypothetical yeah well I was there could be a person in a deer suit right okay I'm sorry that's real life there could be a person juicy right okay but what you would say is is it worth me to eat meat knowing I could be killing

Destinyhuman what you would say is the probability of me eating meat is very very high if I honey kill this thing the probability of that being a living person is very very very very right and you can that's why you can take the hypothetical to an extreme because you

Destinycould say when I get in a car I might kill somebody in a car accident is it worth it asking like can I do this thing if it caused this bad thing you have to wait those probabilistically because that's where the whole that's the most important part we already know with an

Lila Roseabortion with an abortion you know you know that it ends the life of the thing but if even if you're like oh I'm not sure if it's a human or not so this is not your position Destiny is some pro-choicers they're like I'm not sure whether or not to human I don't know when life begins and the pro-life

Lila Roseresponse is that is to say well if you don't know when life begins saying it's okay to kill something that could be a life even by your definition is not just and not and I understand and I'm saying that locking an 11 year old for having abortion because she's pregnant now

Lila Roseyou're going to an extreme you can call it an extreme that's real life which I think we actually most agreed on that case because I was saying we shouldn't lock up the 11 year old you accused us of going to emotional arguments but you've been the whole time

Kristen Hawkinssaying you have a very straightforward fact-based opinion that it's just Consciousness and you you're well sure she's giving me a potential risk and I'm giving you a potential risk I do just want to say like I know we're leading the end of this year a little Kumbaya I

Lila Rosedo think overall Destiny is trying to argue his best that he's doing I don't need your Charities I'm not trying my best I was bad faith well and I know Kristen and I know she has a great hate women so I just wanna I know where the bad faith thing has been leveled a bit but I I will just say I think there's a

Destinylot of good faith imperfect debating happening here but I think you two are evil okay unironically you guys are like out here like get abortion rights and everything banned from the all of human society I think that's kind of evil [ __ ]

Lila Roserestricting the rights of women well I think dismembering a child in the womb is absolutely horrible we can at least all agree we all think each other is evil okay yes I didn't say you're evil Destiny evil I'm advocating for a

Lila Rose[ __ ] child murder how what is more evil than that I I it's gonna be a pretty evil because well in your mind because of I think cognitive dissonance you're convinced yourself you've seemingly almost perfect he's convinced it's also killing Jews was good it didn't make it a good thing right

Lila Roseconvinced yourself that they are not human lives that they don't matter that they're not persons therefore it's okay to kill them for any almost any reason except for eugenics but almost any reason so in that case I because if you sincerely think that and again I think there's cognitive dissonance at play you

Lila Roseknow um I think yeah they think there are some good intentions that you have I mean I sincerely think that gotcha I do think that the position the pro-abortion position at its heart though is not just illogical but it's evil because it it is

Lila Rosehas led to the killing of 60 million children in this country based and that's absolutely horrific and that's why we're working at live action to stop that and save lives and serve women and help and do all the things that we're doing educate Etc so 60 million people

Destinywould you say that's like 10 times more or like a hundred times where are you out on the it eclipses any other human rights abuse in our history and in the 20th century

Lila Rosewell no I mean Destiny you went really fast and you were like changing the topic I mean we were I think both doing that In fairness so next time you know what we could do I think next time we need a whiteboard a moderator you did

Lila Rosegreat but someone who someone no no no not done but we ended cut the camera no no we do need a real monitor more but the turn answering and then have like two minutes I'll get like a timer like a

Brian Atlastimer and then yeah two minutes 30 seconds to respond true but anyway this is my first time I like you did the Whiteboard where you just draw out the arguments

Lila Roseum okay so uh Lila where can people find you thank you um so liveaction.org is our pro-life organization so we have all kinds of arguments for Life responding to his position as many other

Lila Rosepro-abortion positions um facts and resources if you want to be educated to educate other people follow us on social media I have a podcast to the Lila Rose podcast and my new brand new YouTube channel um destiny you should come on and we'll

Lila Rosedo a another one no whatever you want okay and so you can check that out on YouTube Lila Rose podcast and all of our socials are live action or Lyla Rose yeah you can check us out at studentsforlife.org or standing with

Kristen Hawkinsyou.org if you need Pregnancy Resources or support or help for abortion pill reversal I've got a podcast explicitly pro-life and you can check out my YouTube and my Instagram and all my

Destinysocial media handles at Chris knockins Destiny where can people find you you can check me out at www.nomorebabies.org okay we show you the best brands of hangers to use how to use copper iuds to have abortions all sorts of exotic ways to afford a

Destinypregnancy you never even could have imagined or could have dreamed up okay also youtube.com destinykick.com Destiny and uh destiny.g are you getting a kick deal by the way wouldn't you like to know all right

Brian Atlasum oh I have to say one thing since Lila's here Lila I saw the your uh the interview with pints with Aquinas Aquinas and I have to this is part of the beef I guess I I've

Brian Atlasnever even addressed it he said he said that he hopes that the whatever podcast crashes and burns so pints with Aquinas I hope am I even pronouncing it right

Brian Atlasyeah I hope that he didn't know enough about it your thing crashes and burns too damn how about that You Can Crash and Burn also okay um in

Brian Atlasany case thank you everyone for uh tuning in big thank you to the uh wonderful panel here for uh coming tonight um thank you to everyone who tuned in to watch you could have been anywhere in the world but you were here with me I

Brian Atlasappreciate that thank you to everyone who so generously super chats and donates and supports the show means the world thank you thank you um thank you five hours Brian it was a long it was a long show long show but it

Brian Atlaswas good it was good um guys the dating talk is going to be back uh Tuesday the 27th so about a week from now we'll be back at our and then there

Brian Atlason after we'll be back to our normal schedule Sunday and Tuesday at 7 pm Pacific uh Tuesday the 27th 77 PM Pacific is our first dating talk back if everybody in the chat if I could get

Brian Atlassome 07s in the chat 07's in the chat guys please uh but yeah thanks again for tuning in tonight thank you once again to the wonderful panel

Brian Atlasfor coming and doing this and uh 07's in the chat and we will see you guys next time good night guys

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