Destiny vs. Lila Rose, Kristan Hawkins Abortion Debate | Whatever Debates #1

Date: 2023-06-22

Duration: 4h 19m

Guests

Brian Atlas

DDestiny (Streamer)>

KKristen Hawkins >

Identified Speakers

SPEAKER_01Kristen Hawkins(guest)

SPEAKER_02Lila Rose(guest)

SPEAKER_03TTS/Donations(audience)

SPEAKER_04Dave Chappelle (clip)(audience)

SPEAKER_05Brian Atlas(host)

SPEAKER_07Destiny(guest)

Key Moments

QuoteDestiny clarifies his position as 'pro-abortion' not 'pro-choice'

“I prefer to characterize my position as pro-abortion not pro-choice”

Key MomentKristen raises artificial womb technology as a future argument that would decimate the bodily autonomy justification for abortion

“the artificial womb technology... will decimate the bodily autonomy argument... a woman simply can choose to take the child out from her womb and implant it into an artificial Room to Grow”

QuoteDestiny mocks the steel-man he was asked to give for the pro-life side

“why the f*** would I give them any legal hey whatsoever... all pro-lifers... the only way they can ever win any argument is with charts or graphs”

Key MomentSteel-man exercise: Lila Rose identifies emotional tragic cases (rape/incest) as the most effective pro-choice argument

“the most effective pro-choice pro-abortion arguments are the appeals to extreme emotion and very tragic cases”

QuoteDestiny says an 11-year-old rape victim should not be charged with murder for seeking abortion, but maintains abortion should still be legal beyond 20 weeks in that context

“if it's already a baby why the f*** would you have an abortion just because somebody's younger is going to be dramatically inconvenienced”

Key MomentBurning hospital trolley problem: Destiny poses embryo vs. crying toddlers scenario

“you're in a burning Hospital... there are two children crying on the bed... next to them there's a tray of 10 Frozen embryos... what's the morally correct choice”

QuoteDestiny concedes it would be unethical to abort a pre-conscious fetus for eugenic/racial reasons, but says this is wrong because of the eugenics, not because of killing the fetus

“practicing Eugenics is unethical... even if that means having an abortion of a five-week-old but it's not wrong because you're killing a five-week-old it's wrong because you're practicing Eugenics”

QuoteDestiny calls the pro-life guests 'evil' (unironically) for advocating banning abortion

“you two are evil okay unironically you guys are like out here like get abortion rights and everything banned from all of human society I think that's kind of evil”

QuoteDestiny discloses he was pro-life when his son was conceived; says he would have had an abortion if he had been pro-choice at the time

“I was super pro-life when my kid's mom was pregnant so we had a conversation and I can't have an abortion if I'm pro-life... I would have an abortion about my pro-choice plan”

Topics Discussed

Introductions and opening positions

Brian introduces the debate format. Destiny states pro-abortion position: consciousness begins ~20-24 weeks, no personhood before that. Lila Rose and Kristen Hawkins state pro-life position: all humans have rights from fertilization.

Personhood and consciousness debate

Central debate: what defines personhood? Destiny argues consciousness is the key marker. Pro-life side argues human = person from conception. Discussion covers corpses, comas, brain death, dependency, and the seed-vs-tree analogy.

Artificial womb as compromise

Brian asks panel about artificial womb technology as a middle ground. Lila Rose expresses concern about severing natural mother-child bond but acknowledges it would undermine the bodily autonomy argument. Destiny would support it if government funded.

Terry Schiavo case

Destiny and pro-life guests debate the Terry Schiavo case as an example of determining personhood based on consciousness. Destiny cites court records and autopsy confirming persistent vegetative state; pro-life side disputes the husband's motivations and the medical conclusions.

Bodily autonomy argument

Discussion of bodily autonomy as a pro-choice argument. Kristen raises artificial womb technology as a potential future resolution. Reference to Judith Jarvis Thomson's violinist argument.

Rape and incest edge cases

Steel-man exercise and edge case debate. Pro-life side's best argument: tragic emotional cases (rape, young victims). Destiny's best argument: visual evidence of abortion procedure. Discussion of 11-year-old rape victim scenario and whether pro-life position would charge her with murder.

Superchat Q&A session

Brian reads superchat questions from audience. Topics include: molar pregnancy, Khmer Rouge analogy, abortion pill failure rate, IUD use, eugenics on non-persons, Nazis and disabled children, and the hunter/deer hypothetical.

Eugenics and racial motivation hypothetical

Destiny argues it is wrong to practice eugenics (societal racial breeding plans) but maintains this is separate from whether killing a pre-conscious fetus is wrong. Pro-life side challenges the logical consistency.

Plan B and contraception as abortifacients

Discussion of Plan B's mechanism (may prevent implantation of fertilized egg). Destiny acknowledges this. Kristen raises copper IUD as emergency contraception recommended by Planned Parenthood. Debate over whether fertilization or implantation is the relevant moral line.

Dave Chappelle abortion clip reaction

Panel reacts to Dave Chappelle stand-up clip where he says women have the right to choose but men should have the right to 'financial abortion'. Discussion of legal paternal surrender and child support obligations.

Closing discussion and farewells

Panel discusses future topics (sexual ethics, cultural drivers of abortion). Brian plugs guest social media. Destiny jokes about his website. Brief social media plugs for Lila Rose (liveaction.org) and Kristen Hawkins (studentsforlife.org). Dating Talk returns Tuesday the 27th.

Transcript

Page 4 of 5

Destinydiscrimination gotcha and I'll reiterate my point I am biased I'm biased against beings that do not exhibit Consciousness or have the ability to exhibit conscience that's how you decide something instead once somebody said I'm just going to keep you can cut us a bunch of it I'm not gonna let it ramble for like five minutes and then not

Destinyrepeat my argument because she's just repeating her argument so I'll just reset mine uh I am I discriminate against things that don't have a conscious experience because there's nobody being harmed when you abort son is 10 weeks old you can't speak of a person that is being harmed it was a clump of cells and it's gone just like

Kristen Hawkinswhen you stab a corpse there is no person there that's being harmed because of conscious experiences that is wrong because the corpse is dead in the human being in the womb is alive and the corpse is dead because the corpse is dead their body is no

Kristen Hawkinslonger exhibiting a conscious experience no their body is no longer working in a coordinated fashion so I think it's very insincere for you to continue to say that the 19-week child in the womb is

Kristen Hawkinsthe same as a dead human being because we all know in this room that the 190 week the 19-week child in the womb is not like a corpse but you want to keep saying that because it helps you justify

Kristen Hawkinsyour position that abortion should be legal up to 20 weeks because you have to take that discriminatory view based on Age based on development in order to justify and you can use like all the loaded words but you're right Destiny

Kristen Hawkinsyour position is correct you believe that children up to 20 weeks can be killed and you don't give a [ __ ] about them so congratulations you've been you have been philosophically consistent with your beliefs what I'm telling you

Kristen Hawkinswhat you're telling me your child is racist

Kristen Hawkinsexcuse me what I'm saying is your position is reckless it creates varying degrees of personhood which I have said over and over again leads to awful things throughout all of human history

Kristen Hawkinsand can't hold up when medical technology will prove you wrong as I proved you wrong multiple times about a child who could feel pain at 12 and a half weeks uh Toddlers and twins sorry

Destinytwins who can actually interact with each other at 14 weeks okay and I'm going to go with the congratulations that doesn't compel 11 year old girls to forcibly be carrying a child

Lila RoseI have a clarifying question for Destiny yeah so if Consciousness is everything to you and anything you do before a child is conscious or a human is conscious in the womb is totally fine would it be morally acceptable for

Lila Rosesomebody to intentionally maybe that was like some fetish they had or something intentionally get pregnant and this has actually happened horribly intentionally get pregnant to intentionally get abortions but they're doing the abortions at 19 weeks so it's a fully

Lila Roseformed embryo can a fully formed and you're okay if that person gets gets abortion after abortion totally morally it's totally morally acceptable go for it yeah

Destinyso I could have 30 abortions 30 you could have 35 a 19 week old limited abortions however many of your body you think it's completely 100 okay well it is it is well let's let's try to get through some of these terrific we are uh

Kristen HawkinsI personally think the I think we're arresting the 11 year old for murder for getting an abortion of getting raped by a dad I think that's terrific but well yeah you said it's Consciousness what do you mean was your argument against abortion

Lila Rosehe would actually arrest the 11 year old he said if the abortion was past 20 years their past 20 weeks yeah but in my world she would have the opportunity to at least get examinated real world typically you don't find out when you're a rape Survivor if I have a very young

Lila Rosegirl who probably is on not having regular menstruation you usually don't know you're pregnant until well into the second maybe for rape survivors should have better support in society for them like immediately screening for our pregnancies and stuff but you don't know they don't know they typically they're the fact that they're raped isn't known

Destinythey don't share that they're not like I'm calling the police right away they're 11 years old you better make it known then I don't know you have to figure out some way to do it what do you are you trying to check my whole position because the system that exists as it is well like sometimes an 11 year old might be forced character will determine they don't have the ability to get external help for their actual child

Lila Rosethat doesn't mean you should be able to murder them I think well I'm I'm glad you're against murdering I try to be that's like childish anti-child murderer hold on let me just I just got to come in I do just have to come in let's let's try to get through these chats just because we are running

Brian Atlasa little bit late here and then we're gonna have to wrap up here pretty soon so okay let's try to just get through these chats if you if you do want to say anything to uh in response I just ask you keep it brief that way we can just get through all of these all right we

Brian Atlashave Matt L here thank you for the 49 Super Chat appreciate it man better come example the patient had a traumatic uh brain injury where if left to its own divide it's it's owned its own devices

Brian Atlaswill heal in approximately nine months to a point of regaining Consciousness as you have defined it with termination of this human be acceptable I believe this is no no okay all right Matt why is that the case then for a child was a

Lila Roseconscious experience yeah still the capacity to play it there's some healing process and then able to play it again back and forth on this briefly we went through it there's no answer the answer is the child has not had a Consciousness there's no logical reason why it didn't

SPEAKER_06exist but why does that provide not having the moral I am Stephen when I go to sleep there was a Stephen and there will be no I haven't seen there will be stupid when I was an embryo there was never a Stephen to speak of Destiny

Lila Roseyou've said that many many times within weeks the child within weeks so it hasn't yet but whether it's five minutes or five years but why does that matter because it's not there yet but the child is there it just hasn't

Kristen Hawkinsdeveloped technology it's not there yet whether we five years five seconds five Millennia beforehand it's not there and you're also just denying that children which we know scientifically actually have REM cycle sleep and I don't eat first of all I don't even know that I

Brian Atlasdon't even believe that I doubt we even know that okay all right we have uh we have Fernando Marrero Junior hey thank you man he says whatever thank you man appreciate it there you go title drop yo Rams thing for the Canadian 69

Brian Atlasappreciate it the youngest age of fetus medically proven to have survived outside the mother with medical support should certainly be considered human Okay Rams thank you uh we have Vanessa Tam thank for the Canadian 50. Mercy

Destinyyou're always saying that the REM cycle sleep for fetuses is around 23 weeks which would actually be consistent experience we have Vanessa Tam here birthing the baby fetus is the only way it's coming out of the mom so why not

Destinyhelp the pregnant mom during pregnancy and she can bird the baby live and adopted versus dead and dismembered well there's this whole thing called yeah so you guys that's probably what we do probably know a little bit about this okay there's this thing called pregnancy

Destinyokay that's there's a whole nine month process between actually getting pregnant it's called pregnancy oh thank you for that there's a whole period in there that sucks to deal with um varying levels of suckiness but yeah there's probably a good six to seven months there of time that can be saved

Destinyand a whole bunch of like irrevocable changes to the human body or whatever you could probably avoid if you don't go through that whole period but yeah Destiny death is defined as the complete and irreversible cessation of brain activity sure

Lila Rosethat's not the same to say that that's the definition of death if that's the definition of death a child weeks before Consciousness at 20 to 24 weeks and the womb doesn't have that definition of death it's not doesn't even have the

Lila Rosebrain activity but it doesn't have irreversible and it doesn't have a cessation of brain activity that will never come back it's going to develop its brain I agree a child has brain about it I see that even their definition of well I'm defining it the

Destinysame way that death is defined they're not the same do you see that no you don't see that you could have a definition of going broke is when you lose all of your money but guess what you're also broke if you don't have any money you don't get anymore he has a new definition of death death

Lila Roseuh what everyone helps me win the debate definitely can you hold up your Doodles do you acknowledge that it's different if someone is dead and all their brain activity has cease and will not come

Lila Roseback versus a child you're getting hung up every other womb who has the potential and it actually has the capacity for brain activity in time okay do you see do you see the difference I know there's a difference but this

Lila Rosedifference is not relevant the most important debate though it's not the point you're saying it's morally okay to kill the child that has the capacity for brain okay who is being harmed when you abort a 16 week old fetus

Brian Atlashere let's just try to get through these chats if you want to bring it up at the end we'll try all right we have uh real life Outdoors hey thank you dest do you think there's a Phil philosophical significant I think that's what he did you think there is any philosophical

Destinysignificance in non-existence existence and cessation of existence why do you feel humans put so much importance on endangered eagle eggs than human fetuses Junior question do you feel it's purely a population issue a lot going on there um quick responses to these uh super

Destinychances yeah there's a difference between all of these but there's there is no quick response that is super complicated um why do we care about endangered eagle eggs uh we probably feel some obligation to save like unique unique animals or something to environments and that's why we're obsessed with like pandas and [ __ ] I don't know if it's necessarily logical

Kristen Hawkinsor reasonable but I mean well and I think there's anything wrong you know it's smashing bald eagle eggs

Lila RoseI [ __ ] eat meat why would I care about smashing eagle eggs is um you know why do we maybe maybe the point of the question is why do we not care about aborting children in the

Lila Roseworld but we care about eagle eggs and it's true it's a good point it's a very different way there are many you know and I I'm I'm a conservationist I believe in protecting the environment that there are forces even environmentalism that say that we should

Lila Roseprotect endangered species but we shouldn't protect human lives so that is a a huge I think no it's not logical but it's not correct all right stop it oh whoops get something I mean for that oh mother's my favorite guy Destiny there

Destinyis no point in using analogies when there are hardcore facts about this discussion also using a range for Consciousness comes down being a theory which is a synonym for assumption therefore it's not concrete trash

Destinydebater I have another one here for you I mean I agree it doesn't make logical sense it's not consistent um not like a one-celled organism being a thinking feeling no one said it was pain is considered an immediate conscious

Destinysensation and a toddler can't try to bring that up 80s are correct and Destiny is wrong yet again he talks fast and it sounds good but perhaps he should use words correctly do you agree with some research do you agree with you you're welcome for the advice

Destinydestinations considered an immediate conscience sensation do you agree with that or do you think that's wrong no I don't think I necessarily agree with you just disagree with science thank you no banuga did you read it because that's actually the three conscious Child by

Kristen Hawkinsyour definition of conscious anyways yeah you'll react to stimuli and can feel pain I'm pretty sure like amoeba it can feel but they're not into me but they're a human there's a difference because I'm not using feeling pain as my

Kristen HawkinsI don't know I'd have to think about that one too well we still haven't really gotten down to that exact definition of Consciousness because it's so connected exactly to find what Consciousness is [ __ ] me I guess I would think Kevin is arguing I didn't know the burden of me I was an artist

Kristen Hawkinsfor puberty and you seem to tell me you're arguing whether or not human beings should be killed violently ended in the womb or a body should be turned into prisons

Destinywhere they have to carry something else it's not about Consciousness

Brian Atlaspregnant let's read some more Super chats we have tactical lupus oh thing for the 50. excuse me rambling about nothing on the loop the whole podcast yeah it's bad faith the whole time even the girl

Brian Atlasyou're with is annoyed they haven't heard anything Destiny has said bro one on the house analogy Parts aren't a whole okay all right

Destinyif you take out fetus at any point during pregnancy and it can survive it would be wrong to take its life that said at any point the fetus is body part of female and they should have the right over it and should be allowed to make

Brian Atlaschoices based on ayush thank you for the uh Super Chat we have dank naked here with the 50. all I'm saying is when I put some cake batter into the oven and if someone pulled said cake batter out and Spilled it onto the floor I'd exclaim what are

Destinyyou doing to my cake not what are you doing to my cake batter oh my oh my goodness destiny someone's a thinker first of all that they are going to still fit in cake

Brian Atlasbatter on a counter would not be a cake a cake is a thing true all right we have we have doctor embryo's still a human just like a toddler uh Dr Ocho with the uh Super Chat thank you man Kristen is

Brian Atlasincorrect being generous by not saying lying uh REM sleep REM sleep doesn't happen in the womb until 28 weeks okay there was another study I saw today it said

Destinyokay uh Vex liberal thank you for the big guy 200 wow huge all human cells contain the blueprints for an entire human genome universality is it a unique

Kristen Hawkinshuman we don't consider yes what do you mean no they don't we don't we don't consider skin cells to have the parts for Consciousness nor do we give them more consideration wait what do you mean that's right because a skin cell has

Kristen Hawkinsyour blueprints has your DNA when you say your who is you what does that mean if you like me what is me yeah but who is me when you say me come off disgusting yeah if I rip my arm

Kristen Hawkinsoff and I put on the table does that means have your and they're apart yeah but I'll say I ripped my arm off and I put my arm over there is that arm me and

Kristen Hawkinsliving human

Brian Atlasokay we have dank naked here do you think my head is going to fly off my body uh Destiny asking the most bad faith question the toddlers will have a higher ability to live than the embryos wow as humans you're programmed to protect your young of course you'll feel

Brian Atlasan urge to protect toddlers over embryos doesn't mean those embryos aren't alive we have perfectly stated correct thank you I believe that was Bryce by the way with the Super Chat thank you man good

Brian Atlasto see you in the chat yo Angel cardine Cardenas thank you for the uh thank you I can't believe the uh okay talk down to Destiny when she thinks a seed is the same as a tree they ask a hundred

Brian Atlasquestions and when Destiny tries to answer one they ask a hundred more as he's answering answering then get mad because somehow he's interrupting okay thank you for repping me oh okay

Brian Atlasum Rams merci beaucoup for the Canadian 69 dollars thank you for the soup chat man unfortunately the only way with evidence-based medicine to find out what the youngest fetus age we are able to save is is to extract fetuses and and

Brian Atlastry to keep them alive in the large study unfortunately I wouldn't even do that to animals that would be immoral research okay and then we have nanya business thank man for the soup chat if

Destinyit doesn't exist Destiny then why the need to abort it you make no sense a perfect point that is such a good point because I thought it was like nothing and then just pops into existence [ __ ] me that was really good that was my question

Brian Atlasyou've lost you didn't even consider that um Mike Davis thank you man good to see you back in the chat man wait is this the mic it is the Mike Davis um do we have this photo somewhere around here this Destiny Misfit weirdo

Destinyis a really slow brain making an argument about Consciousness if we were to ever meet I'd knock him unconscious straight into airplane mode would it be cool to kill him then

Lila RoseDestiny's Consciousness ability for Consciousness or development of Consciousness does not equal his value or person if you're still a person if you're a human you're a person Destiny would you accept a boxing match with Mike Davis

Destinyuh well it depends on the environment we're in like if he's got like those non-slip shoes and he's fighting in the native like Wendy's environment that he's used to and having I might lose that one I'm not sure I don't have to think about it you know okay fair enough we have the lifeline apologetics say

Brian Atlasthank you man for the soup chat I really appreciate it uh Destiny since you hold there is no consciousness at conception personhood do you believe a woman should be able to drink and smoke from the earliest point of pregnancy if she doesn't get an abortion

Lila Roseum I would say no because you're committing harm to a future person whoa whoa so is it committing harm to a future person to dismember them at 19 weeks no because you're preventing that

Destinyfuture person from existing oh okay nice try I like how you thought I actually don't have to say anything about it because you don't like people they think that they can like yeah

Destinythey do exist in order to abort them something exists something but not the person that's the whole point of the entire argument the conscious race doesn't exist yet yes that is correct but they're going to be confident but you're saying that person same his same

Kristen Hawkinsthe six-year-old child in the womb when the mother's drinking and doing drugs doesn't which we have been arguing this entire evening has the capacity to form Consciousness which is your you know Baseline the unethical part is that

Kristen Hawkinsyou're harming the six week old the unethical part is you're harming the people how do you know how do you how do you know that the child is it going to be aborted at 19 weeks maybe the mom just well if you plan on aborting it then it's not unethical then you can do whatever you want yes space as many trips down the stairs as you find

Kristen Hawkinsnecessary as long as you know you have abortion you can kill a human and that's moral but you can't drink and potentially give the child fetal alcohol syndrome or make the child be born with a drug dependent that's immoral

Kristen Hawkinswhen am I saying you're okay to kill humans at 19 weeks and six days before the country experience you can come through with that language okay well no because you're using pumping yeah you can end the life of a human being yeah which is a unique genetic human being I

Kristen Hawkinsdon't care about any of that [ __ ] yeah so you can end that life that is not immoral but it is immoral at 19 weeks to smoke crack cocaine and because you're harming the future person like you're

Destinythey're gonna be about and then you're gonna harm them right but they are that person they're not that person on top of this building you just defeated yourself like this is I like how you think I'll never answer this question if I go on top of a building

Destinyand I put a piano there okay and I go to push that piano off the building let's say that I push it off onto somebody immediately that would be unethical right well what if I set a timer to push this off in five minutes and then I walk away right

Destinyum and I know a person's gonna be walking by in five minutes well is it ethical because I'm not harming anybody right at another point in time hold on the unethical part is that in five minutes a person will be there so I'm setting up a scenario where in the future somebody's going to be caused by

Destinymy actions they're going to cause harm by my actions that's the unethical part the unethical part isn't me putting the piano there or putting a Contraption there unethical part of setting a future person up for harm so for a fetus for a fetus at six weeks old you're gonna smoke and drink and do all that that's

Lila Rosefine if you get an abortion that's whatever but if you do that and then you carry that child the term or if you intend to carry the children you're harming that future person right and I think that we totally disagree that Consciousness doesn't Define a human that's fine so obviously unconscious and still a human you can have less

Lila Roseconfidence we went through all of that yeah uh just one thing

Lila Rose[Music] and that binary I think is where the Elijah comes in there's no there's no reason there's no reason for why a child that's gonna that has the capacity for Consciousness and just needs time to

Destinydevelop it why you should discriminate hold on you can say that there's no reason but it's not illogical there's a binary of are you an NFL player or not however people that are there could be people that are better NFL players than other NFL players but they're going to be the binary of if you already what's illogical is to draw the arbitrary line

Lila Roseit's not arbitrary at all it's very concise when conscious experience happens because you can't Define a particular point of time it's called a Continuum fallacy look it up arbitrary

Destinyline to use that for it's not what does arbitrary mean if you want to say it's arbitrated to terminal value yes I can agree with it I can agree with you I can agree with you I can agree with you I can agree with

Destinyyou who has Consciousness I can agree with you more so than a reborn

DestinyI can agree with you that it's arbitrary but the uh but but the point is everything is arbitrary if you're going to get that fundamental a genetic unique genetic code is arbitrary a unique uh zygote is arbitrary unique feed is arbitrary like it's all arbitrary if you go really really fundamental but we're

Destinynot here today we pick solve ethics we pick when life begins yes and I pick when life begins based on anything like fence because I think that's about what we're worried about protecting what are we protecting when we're talking about picking him like it's not a body it's not a cell it's not a heartbeat we're protecting their conscious experience

Kristen Hawkinsthat's about here let's we'll come back to that let's come back to that when you there's there's sick of having to resay the same things over and over again

Brian Atlasno get through it we're gonna get through the checks apparently just a point of two Chatters Jennifer and Jonathan said that I've

Brian Atlasmissed their super chats Jennifer um I maybe were coming up on it but I don't I don't see any of your super chats I don't know but um uh something

Brian Atlasabout did we do one related to the Khmer Rouge

Brian Atlaswhat's that it was something about harming babies was it under the threshold in any case I'm okay so let me let me do this one we have one here from uh polarized I'm not gonna pull it up but he's he has a

Brian Atlasquestion for Kristen uh it's a very simple question if if an embryo is a human being for you Kristen Oh I thought is there more to the question that's it just it

Brian Atlasdepends on what type of embryo it is that's human embryo a human being yeah if it's a human embryo human being uh Nick can you

Brian AtlasKeep It Center Keep It Center oh sorry rip welcome to the whatever Studio okay let me get through these soup chats while Nick fixes that we have uh dang naked here Destiny there's a difference between a dead body and a fetus

Destinydeveloping a brain how bad faith are you right now the fetus is going to develop a brain a dead person is dead naked we've said that like I am too dumb to understand that point I just it's not getting anyone to understand that because it would defeat my whole life it's inconvenient it's an

Brian Atlasinconvenient fact for me it would just obliterate me yeah at least you know that I do this is like the head of the Exodia they just obliterate obliviates my whole argument all right we have uh Devin Cena here thank you for the 50. Nazis murdered disabled children because

Destinyof their impacted Consciousness mental faculties was that okay Destiny yeah I think mental disability is the exact same thing as having no conscious experience at all that's what they said so I believe

Destinyyou think the Nazis are justified in murdering children please explain well probably the ones where your brain isn't even really working I would say it's probably Justified like Terry Shiva

Destinyterrible statement you just said that the Nazis were justified in murdering disabled children I don't think the Nazis were trying to kill people they weren't having country experience I think they were trying to murder people because they were trying to get rid of like the unclean from society I think it was a bit different

Lila Rosebut you just said okay so if a woman has an abortion at 19 weeks for a eugenic reason because of the the skin color of the baby because she oh that could be honestly sure yeah that would be unethical I thought it wasn't a thing earlier it wasn't unethical for a woman

Lila Roseto get pregnant as a sexual fetish and continue to have abortions at 19 weeks because the 19 week old baby is not a baby and not a human not a person so why would it be unethical to kill the 19 week old who based for a racist reason I don't know if it's unethical to practice

Destinya sexual fetish it might be unethical to design Society with a racial vision in mind so it is wrong to kill at 19 weeks for a race-based reason uh I don't know if I care about killing the thing I'm thinking more of the designing of a

Kristen Hawkinssociety based on race is it wrong to kill a 19 week old fetus a child in the womb you're asking me as if something is wrong or gender we could ask about gender because that happens I think you're acknowledging that you're killing though is what you're

Destinyacknowledging no you don't think it's killing let me explain okay please do you're trying to ask me is it wrong to practice Eugenics and I'm saying in general I would say that probably Eugenics is wrong

Lila Rose19 week old before Consciousness hold on that's the issue I don't care it's always wrong to practice Eugenics even on a 19 week old pre-consciousness of pre-consciousness has no moral value why would it why is it possible to even

Destinybe racist against that 19 week old I don't say being racist 19 year old I say practicing Eugenics why would it even be Eugenics to kill the 19 week old I would say it would probably be unethical if you were to say that people should only breed with people of their own race that that form of practicing Eugenics

Destinyunethical even though you're not killing anything hold on I know you're okay

Destinyis it unethical to uh is it unethical to kill a 19 week old thing by virtue of doing it because of a Eugenics and what I'm saying is practicing Eugenics is unethical in your mind you're transferring the idea that I'm saying oh

Destinyyou think it's unethical to practice Eugenics by killing the 19 week old you must think it's unethical then because you're killing the 19 year old no killing the 19 year old or the 19 uh week old has nothing to do with whatsoever it's the practice of eugenics whether it's 19 weeks old or 21 weeks old I would say both are wrong however

Destinythe additional thing would be that killing the 21 week old would also be murdering a child and practice Eugenics killing the 19 uh the 19 week old would be unethical because you're practicing Eugenics but not because you're killing

Lila Rosesome baby by virtue of your argument you cannot practice Eugenics on a 19 year old because they're not a person yet do you think it's Eugenics to sterilize can you answer can you answer no because

Lila Rosethat's not I don't think that's what Eugenics means okay what let's define then Eugenics is I'm doing in this scenario it's a racially motivated Act of of Oppression violence against this

Lila Rose19 year old 19 week old fetus okay that is pre-conscious so it's not a person in your book yeah I don't know I don't know what that definition of eugenics is my understanding of what would that be wrong what I just said in that hypothetical would that be wrong

Lila Rosepracticing eugenics in my mind for racial Visions is still a 19 week old pre-conscious fetus for race racist reasons yeah but not because you're killing the fetus but because you're practicing Eugenics but why is it practicing Eugenics if it's not killing

Destinya person because we have different definitions of what Eugenics means that's why I just wanted to go back and define eugenics my understanding is genetics or I'm sorry minus Xanax is um Eugenics is when you have a like a

Destinysocietal breeding plan so for instance this could be a practice of eugenics is saying black people are not allowed to have children it doesn't mean you have to have abortions it doesn't mean you have to kill anything right okay so if we're

Destinysaying that that is illegal we're saying that's Eugenics telling people who can or can't have kids is eugenics then I would say it's unethical to practice Eugenics for a racial Vision mind even if that means a boarding uh nine week old even if that means having

Destinyan abortion of a five-week-old but it's not that's not wrong because you're killing a five-year-old it's wrong because you're practicing Eugenics but Eugenics isn't defined by having an abortion but other human living being of a person moral quality on this

Lila Roseunconscious fetus no I'm not I'm putting the moral quality it's on the practice of you but you're only saying that Eugenics is bad because it's it's ending the life of this child for eugenics reasons

SPEAKER_06I said that Eugenics was designing socially like socially deciding who can or cannot have children and now you're telling me you said Eugenics was about killing a baby I never was so Destiny you're saying it would be wrong to kill

Lila Rosea nine week old for race-based reasons no is that correct or yes correct yes okay but then on this same hand you're saying that that 9 nine week old is not a person and doesn't have moral status

Destinyyes okay the wrong that's being committed isn't a wrong the wrong that's being committed isn't wrong against the nine-week child the wrong being committed is the social wrong of eugenics so it's just the intention of the thing no it's the it is not the

Lila Roseintention of killing a baby it's the intention of eugenics so they get moral value hold on they get moral value if they are they all of a sudden get moral value if they're being killed for racist reasons but they're be if they're being killed any moral value I wouldn't punish

Kristen Hawkinsthe person for murder or I wouldn't question what did they do wrong if it's just a thing if if what are you doing wrong if you tell black people not to have children what's the wrong thing nobody's being harmed 13 week old child

Kristen Hawkinsin the womb is not a person and it's just a thing and has absolutely no value I understand what you're saying is that because you don't you know think that a

Kristen Hawkinshuman has value and is in a person until they have Consciousness so but what are they actually doing they're not actually doing anything they're not even practicing Eugenics because there's

Kristen Hawkinsnothing there to you said that it's a non-person it's not a thing you say only white people should read with white people is that practicing Eugenics even if you haven't had any kids yet

Lila Roseyou're not defining that's the difference you're not defining what that nine-week-old thing is then what is it it doesn't matter what it does because you're saying it's wrong to kill it so what is it I'm not saying it's wrong to

Lila Rosekill anything it's wrong Eugenics you're saying it's wrong eugenic reasons practicing Eugenics you practice Eugenics on like things like cars what do you practice theoretically you could sure can you practice your Jennings on

Kristen Hawkinslike refrigerators theoretically you could sure let's say that I find other refrigerators and cars can't reproduce you you've already so you're gonna let me answer the hypothetical

Destinyeugenics here let's do a cup shots here but I found out there I never said by black people and let's say that I armed that car with an ability to stab you in the balls makes you can have kids but would you argue that that's the ball stabbed in the balls it's Cadillacs that only

Lila Roseblack people drive would you say that's a form of eugenics that would be wrong and it would be it would be Eugenics even with no baby's presence but you're still stabbing somebody you're still harming someone like the night but you're not to leave a kid it's Eugenics you're killing what you don't want to call a kid but it is a kid you're

Lila Rosekilling a human that you don't want to call a person but it is a human you're still upset with killing it for racist reasons but for other reasons you're okay with it and that doesn't make sense it totally makes sense let's do some sleep chats here how many more of these we have it's we're getting there we're

Destinygetting there so molar prank do not get right because they are non-viable pregnancies with lethal genetic abnormalities that will never be viable on their own but can still become full term Anna's uh anencephalic babies never

Kristen Hawkinsdevelop Consciousness given time comments well actually that actually is false so pregnancies with lethal genetic

Kristen Hawkinsabnormalities so the question is does having a different genetic code or something that could end your life does that change that you are fundamentally

Kristen Hawkinshuman and that you are valuable a child who has been diagnosed with anencephaly or a child who's diagnosed with Down Syndrome or cystic fibrosis or whatever

Kristen Hawkinsterrible syndrome you want to come up with that doesn't change the fact the child in the womb that child that fetus sorry doesn't mean to trigger you has

Kristen Hawkinsrights and is valuable and should be protected I don't think just because someone has been diagnosed by the way the New York Times even said earlier this year that 80 percent of genetic

Kristen Hawkinstests that come out and say that a child has Down syndrome cystic fibrosis are wrong that was like the New York Times so that doesn't actually change your value and it doesn't say that that human

Brian Atlasis is no longer worthy of Life wow okay we have Crystal Cole here thank you for the uh Super Chat I really appreciate it Crystal thank you there are multiple definitions of Consciousness one is related to awake asleep under anesthesia

Brian Atlasversus Consciousness in terms of metaphysical human awareness you can be unconscious according to the first definition while being conscious according to this second definition Crystal thank you very much for that uh

Brian Atlassoup chat David Keiko thank you for the uh Super Chat man thank you if I am the last boy on Earth is it a moral or virtuous for me to pull out and um

Brian Atlasnice don't know dude good one I should I need to read these first yeah all right um not cool Jennifer this one came through uh we're reading twenty dollar Donuts now no just this broken [ __ ] Jennifer just a point of clarification

Brian Atlashere um the the read trigger is the actual question you want answered has to be um 49.99 and up it it can't be cumulative

Brian Atlascumulative um so just a heads up but something about the Khmer Rouge I guess if you want us really quick just we'll give you a slide on this one yeah babies and bashing that's bad that's a tree we

Brian Atlaswould all agree as well it's pretty bad yeah all right um Jennifer Hemingway any relationship to the author okay um what is the question uh is it bad to

Brian Atlasbash yeah I'd say I could say it's pretty bad I reckon that's pretty bad yeah we have the lifeline apologetics here if early term abortion fails the pill hypothetically if the child is born the pill could have damaged uh the child

Destinypermanently just like drinking and smoking example would it have been wrong to take the pill is she stuck and has to try abortion again if you're going to have an abortion it's probably like a foolproof method not something that can fail and have like a [ __ ] up damaged kid because that would probably be

Kristen Hawkinshonest majority of abortions in the country today are committed to be a chemical abortion they have a 15 annual failure rate wow so are you against chemical abortion right if that's the actual stat I probably would be I have a feeling that's probably not true but if it was I would probably be against it it

Lila Rosereally is but okay yeah they usually have to go back for a percentage of the cases of surgical abortion yeah because it's incomplete abortion gotcha all right which is why there's abortion pill reversal which can sometimes save the life of a child and it saved a few thousand lives if you take the first

Destinyabortion pill in the regimen you can save it yeah or if you have problems with the first one just keep taking more and more okay nothing says you can't take like two or three plan B's you know plan C Plan D

Kristen Hawkinsdo you think Plan B is an abortifacient drug does that mean abortion yeah yeah is plan to be the one that it prevents implantation yep and yeah probably thank you for having a consistent definition

Kristen Hawkinswell no I mean you've had a consistent definition of when you think babies should be killed you have been very consistent throughout all this I think it's wrong I think it's Reckless I think it's very dangerous but you've had a consistent position but I would thank

Kristen Hawkinsyou for actually admitting that plan B which a lot why are you saying admitting well no because abortion let me finish because when I talk about the dangers of Plan B I will often be told an

Kristen Hawkinsinterviewer by interviewers that I'm lying that plan B is merely contraceptive it's not abortivation but it actually says on the back of the plan B box May prevent the implantation of a fertilized egg if you could Google the

Destinyword fertiliz egg it comes up yeah I'm aware of that the strongest so you actually admitted that so I was admitting anything I obviously I don't care yeah but the strongest pro-life argument in my opinion are usually ones

Destinythat consider the teleology um the the development of a human rightfully so begins at not conception but implantation and I find that those pro-life arguments are more convincing

Destinythan the ones that believe it happens at the moment of conception because if it happens at the moment of conception there are like millions of babies that die every single day tragically that we never hear about and don't even know about it don't care about which is like a very weird position to have whereas

Destinylike implantation more closely fall because you agree that it's possible to fertilize an egg and the Egg just doesn't implant it just yeah it glips out so think of that as like the death of a human or the death of a person is like very strange it's because it

Destinyhappens doesn't mean that those sure I'm not sure I understand I know I know our human beings that deserve all the rights whatever but the idea that it begins at implantation I think is more satisfactory but if that's the case then having Plan B wouldn't be considered do

Kristen Hawkinsyou believe iuds are abortation because I was reading something yesterday uh the Planned Parenthood that put out on their Instagram and they were saying that plan B can't isn't very effective for people like me who are overweight and so they

Kristen Hawkinswere suggesting that women get copper iuds inserted in them which we knew come upper iuds they're not preventing the release of an egg but they actually I thought copper iuds like sanitize and kill anything well that's sperm but if you're doing it after the fact after

Kristen Hawkinsyou've already had unprotected sex the goal of the IUD is to make the womb inhospitable to human life I've never heard about that before that might be true but I've never heard that you can do an IUD as an abortion yeah it was actually it was very new to me that

Kristen HawkinsPlanned Parenthood and the abortion industry is actually now lobbying as if iuds are emergency contraception but they use the word contraceptive they won't actually use the word abortation so I was just trying to to find out are

Destinyyou actually consistent as well because you did admit I don't I won't even admit that to you because I don't even I don't know if that's true I'd have to research on my own I've never in my life usually like scheduling for iuds and all that like takes a while I've never heard of using an IUD it was on the planned parenthood's Instagram page I was pretty

Kristen HawkinsI was pretty shocked by it as well as that they were now recommending uh this drug this device which actually can kill a baby it prevents implantation of the new human being into the uterine lining

Brian Atlasall right we have uh a super chat here from trauma Davey thank you for anti-abortion what is people reproduced by shaking hands what if people reproduce by shaking hands and the child

Brian Atlasmagically appeared in 10 minutes would it be unethical to let go a second before no it's not unethical just like it's not unethical to not have sex and not

Brian Atlasconceive a child all right trauma Davey thank you there and we have just three more here we have gotcha uh I think for the donation appreciate it for the pro-lifers if an enslaved African-American woman in the 1800s

Brian Atlasunlived their fetus to protect the fetus uh Delete um from an enslaved life would that be a moral so like a mercy killing yeah is the way that they would probably I think

Lila Roseso yeah and I think yes killing someone because yeah it's immorals killing someone because they are going to be enslaved or have a bad life um is not right we should instead work to free them and get them a better life

Brian Atlasinstead of end their life and God just sent it twice here so gotcha thank you for the uh subsequent uh maybe is this one directed to Destiny he wants Destiny's take on this one uh Destiny

Destinyfor the pro um no there's a [ __ ] dog [ __ ] argument you can't make arguments in favor of abortion by killing people that might have shitty lives it's the stupidest [ __ ] argument in the world

Destinythere you go most most pro-choice arguments are stupid if you read Judith Thompson's original paper on like the defense of abortion her defensive abortion is one of self-defense but she very clearly outlines if you read her paper that Judith Thompson defends the

Destinyright Feud have an abortion she doesn't defend the Right View to kill the fetus that's why if you make an argument for viability and you cite Judith Thompson's paper you haven't actually read the paper because she doesn't even make that argument and even towards the end of her paper she admits it like having like a seventh like month abortion because you

Lila Rosewant to go on vacation is probably like an immoral or a shitty thing to do well and the whole problem with her argument is that the child whether it's pre-viability or pre-consciousness in your case still deserves to live and still deserves nourishment from their parent well that's a complicated

Destinyargument exactly but that's a very complicated argument because if you're making argument with self-defense even if things aren't acting with intent to kill you you can still argue that you have a right to leave the self-defense against those things for instance if a

Destinyfour-year-old is running at me and I have no other way to avoid him but to shoot him in the head for whatever reason technically you have a right to defend yourself against that child well in that case you would first of all what responsibility do you have for the child

Lila Roserunning at you with a knife and second of all you should try to disarm the child that's why in cases where even if you feel you're even if you feel that's why in some places if you feel you're being attacked and then you attack the

Destinyperson back by this lethal violence you shoot them but it's like hey you could have run away you didn't have to stop there and shoot them you couldn't run away you could I agree with you then there were counter organs that are kind of American too so for instance the counter argument to that counter argument would be if you engage in six

Destinypeople you're doing every single thing you possibly can to avoid a person appearing so for instance if you're taking contraception and using condom and they still appear do you then have full moral liability for them doing whatever and I believe I think Thompson in her paper uses the example if you leave the window open and like a people

Destinyseed floats in and like lands in your house and suddenly grows to a human just because you left the window open by a crack but you thought the screen would cover it or you're not morally responsible for the development the protection of the nourishment but that you can go back right but I think I mean I think again her argument is flawed

Lila Rosebecause regardless of whether or not even even how much the person wanted to be a parent they're still apparent if there's a child inside them and that child still deserves to live and has the right to live all right we have redneck here thank you uh redneck for the

Brian Atlasdonation really appreciate it man thank you still pro-life both sides super smart Destiny answers non-stop logical and the girls try to get them on the tech this is going nothing but in circles Brian get a man on the P life

Brian Atlasside next time to not just get emotional answers it is very redundant damn okay well there you have it emotional uh yeah it would have been good to I maybe have

Brian Atlaslike 3v3 like have one guy [ __ ] no these it's already hard with like three yeah we'll just get everybody screaming at each other right all right we have uh mockery here thank you for the uh donation man really appreciate it if you don't value life specifically as a human

Brian Atlasconsciousness how do you justify eating meat if you value a fetus because it's going to become conscious would it be a moral to stop a blank because you're interrupting the process that leads to a

Brian Atlasunique life stop sex I think yeah well stop I think he's saying non-consensual you know yeah let's not talk about that but um how so we'll do the first question if you don't value life specifically as

Brian Atlashuman consciousness how do you justify eating meat so I assume he's talking about beef or chicken or no pork kangaroo have you ever had kangaroo for

Lila RoseDestiny care about human conscious experience I didn't say human because we're not having a vegan debate here we're just having a okay all right I mean I think humans are different than animals than non-human animals and I

Kristen Hawkinsthink that they deserve do you think that humans when you think of animals in the womb have Consciousness they have more value than a 19 week old fetus in the womb no because I don't care about animal Consciousness at all okay

Brian Atlasum well I we're totally caught up on chats so um yeah I know it took us a while but we're we're there and Destiny I just want to say appreciate you dealing with two of us here I like how appreciate you you guys

Lila Rosearguing you have a dream bad faith both of you do but you know um I was not I'm here I hope you weren't attending that either so I don't think we argued in bad faith absolutely I think we I think we I think we were able to isolate your justification for abortion and we went

Kristen Hawkinsin circles many times because at the end of the day I think it's an arbitrary line that you've drawn um you choose can either of you restate my argument in the best life possible I'm curious the human being does not have right to person right not to be

Kristen Hawkinskilled until that human being in your view develops Consciousness at 20 weeks which you cannot Define and tell us what Consciousness is so you can kill that human being until 20 weeks it doesn't

Kristen Hawkinsmatter because it's not a human being it's not even a thing but it is wrong to practice Eugenics and then kill it before 20 weeks because it's Eugenics but we still don't know what any other

Destinyfeeling is okay because you don't you won't find what it actually is okay and I'll do this one time just to show the audience right can you do that absolutely your position question is that if we're looking at the existence of a human being there is a unique life

Destinythat is created at the very moment of conception the blueprint that is going to determine everything you ever will become happens at that very moment you can trace back the beginning of your existence at the moment of conception and it is the most clear and consistent way to define exactly when your life starts when that unique organism exists

Destinyand then when it begins to grow and become a baby an adolescent adult blah blah not quite correct because it's not just the blueprint Destiny it's also I'm sorry it's also a really important Point sorry it's not that important a million times better than yourself which is dog

Lila Rose[ __ ] but that's right but just to clarify because it's not crap but just to clarify and I appreciate you giving a stab at it it is incorrect because it's not just a blueprint like a blueprint and a car or a blueprint and a

Lila Rosebuilding Destiny it's also the substance of the thing and the just to be clear it's not it's you don't even believe that I do believe it is everything is there it's it's a single cell embryo that with time and do you believe it

Destinycontinue to develop physics infant will continue to develop absolutely okay you believe in time and space absolutely okay in one cell then only thing there is the blueprint and the and the

SPEAKER_06potentiality to continue to develop and multiply sure but it's but but there's a mechanism to begin building the blueprint but it is only one cell every friend is Never Gonna a blueprint of a house is never going to build itself it

Lila Rosewill if other people are nourishing it not quite destination it has a little bit of self-assembly but again it doesn't match because because in Europe to make it a more exact argument or exact analogy to your blueprint it

Lila Rosewould be as if again like I was trying to say earlier but I think we got redirected another Direction but as if you put in the it's your argument would be as if you put a blueprint in a in a on a Plata land you stacked up all you put all the nourishment there let me

Lila Rosejust finish let me just finish you put the blueprint there with all the all the stacks of wood and you walk away and you say okay well the house will just build itself the child the difference between the blueprint and the stacks of wood is

Lila Roseit needs workers to go build it in the case of a single cell embryo it is a whole person that's going to self-actualize and develop and multiply it cells to reach different levels of age agent development as what we all do as human beings not just pre-born but

Brian Atlasonce we're born Etc oh plan life sorry go ahead go ahead that's fine just believe in that conscious Ferry okay we have uh let's just see here we have

Brian AtlasLifeline apologetics Destiny didn't answer the hypothetical assumes the abortion fails and damages the fetus permanently if the abortion fails is she stuck in the choice to attempt abortion

Brian Atlasagain to prevent the potential damaged future child fans of the ladies hope to work with you all someday yeah you should probably attempt abortion again yeah otherwise you are harming a future person yes

Destinyand there's nobody beneath it let's say that you go to push it but it only like half Falls and then it's gonna fall in five minutes when somebody is beneath yeah you should try to push it again to avoid it that your argument does not make sense because you say it makes perfect it's immoral to

Kristen Hawkinsto immoral to kill in your view a potential person it's immoral to harm the future person

SPEAKER_06a future person in according to your argument All Humans before 20 weeks or future persons death no because if you don't if you have an abortion there is no future person there would have been

Kristen Hawkinsif you didn't have the abortion if there isn't there would have been implies there is not there's but some person still existed you just killed them no they didn't exist that was the whole point they never started to exist what what was in the womb then was it a fetus

Kristen Hawkinsit didn't exist a fetus existed defeated not a person a fetus the fetus yeah the child the latter whatever you want to embellish

Kristen Hawkinshow can you justify saying that harming a potential person a fetus in the womb is immoral because that may long you know long term in their life hurt them

Destinybut it's not immoral to kill them because in one sense you are harming a future person in another sense you're preventing that person from existing he doesn't care that he would have become a person

DestinyI know you're like staying at like half-like time

Brian Atlasall right we have uh Chad here from I guess I'll just read that one while it's up um Angel Cardenas uh W Destiny the Karens

Kristen Hawkinsare ignorant do you do you guys want to respond to the care and accusation we were asked to come here and talk about our pro-life beliefs and I feel

Brian Atlaslike we did that we did not um we'll answer ourselves into this debate okay we have bof could you hide that Destiny how certain must you be that the fetus is conscious

Brian Atlasto consider abortion wrong let's say there's a 10 chance of the fetus is conscious of 21 weeks 20 at 22 30 23 Etc at what point would you ban abortion um like like the part is like 20 to 24

Brian Atlasweeks so I'd probably just cut it off right at 20 weeks is like where people say the development is all right we have uh DMZ demise thing for the 69 donation really appreciate it the two women are not accepting that he has clearly drawn where his line is the practice of eugenics wrong abortion prior to a

Brian Atlascertain period he feels acceptable primarily that it be done before the kid could feel pain or has brain stimulation unless it's done for eugenic reason which was the whole debate we were having yeah then he's then you're

Destinyopposed to it yeah yeah if you haven't if you have an argument with a room full of kids and you say hey guys you guys should like probably not have children or like wait a long time to have children that's fine but if you only say that in rooms of

Kristen Hawkinsblack kids that's not fine the same action but it's bad because in one sense you're practicing eugenics in the other sense you're not the bad thing is the organic part I don't know who you're practicing Eugenics on with a 19 week old fetus if you said it's not a thing

Destinywell if you're potential you're practicing it on society that's what Eugenics is practice on at a societal level like that's what but I don't yeah I don't think it works but okay let's let's get this chat we have weeaboo I

Brian Atlasthink for the uh donation it's not good to base your values on potential if a person inherited a gene that made them predisposed to being extremely violent do we preemptively put them in jail it's difficult to make decisions on things

Brian Atlasthat haven't happened weeaboo thank you very much for your soup chat appreciate it and then we have dragon zombie 2000 I'm neutral on this topic but I really

Brian Atlasfeel Destinies just Gish Galloping not sure what that is he's not really making any convincing arguments he's speed talking his way out of Corners to avoid

Brian Atlasdressing Lila's actual points Lila's absolutely crushing it respect thank you Destiny no you go ahead

Lila Roseabsolutely true I mean the pro-life argument is is is is very simple in many ways it's about human rights for All Humans you don't get to put personhood based on developmental markers personhood is for everyone if you're a

Lila Rosehuman you're a person if you're a person you're a human that's the bottom line and so you don't do age discrimination or developmental discrimination or Consciousness or unconsciousness discrimination you're a human you have human rights and that's why we oppose intentional violence against humans and that's why we didn't talk about it in

Lila Rosethis debate but maybe we could do another one at some point where we get into you know how to stop abortions all the other Arguments for abortion and against it um how we can make our civilization more just and more loving to a place where

Lila Rosethere are less abortions women don't even choose it anymore we're supporting them more I mean there's a whole lot more that pro-lifers focus on a lot Beyond you know the debate that on this um Consciousness question sure okay

Brian Atlasum let's see here I think we're all finally caught up on uh all the chats so uh closing statements and you have to get going right Lila what's how's what's

Brian Atlasthat I've already missed I'm good oh you're good um time wise are you are you guys um

Destinyyou made an abortion this is like the joke comic where everybody every abortion of vegans are the two that I never do long form to write songs that you wrote me into doesn't he wants to go to sleep and have an experience Blissful and I want to go do drugs but no one's

Brian Atlasallowed to kill him what are we okay I'm just kidding okay what else am I talking about well um we're gonna keep going we could if if you guys want we can we can continue or if you guys feel like we've hit we've

Lila Rosethe duration of the podcast has been sufficient and we can uh wrap it up sure is there anything you really want to hit or something or because I know I would love actually I mean not necessarily now because I know I have to drive three hours and I think you know you have a

Lila Roseflight and stuff but I would love to do a a podcast to talk about sexual ethics and talk about you know the whole reason we have the abortion crisis in the first place one of the reasons is we have laws that permit abortion and people are just getting them the other reason though is

Lila Rosethe other reason is I think societally culturally post-sexual Revolution I think that's a very interesting conversation so abortions become a parachute get out of jail free card for I love how children are described as like punishments

Kristen Hawkinslike get out of jail like having a kid is being in jail and the parachutes are to say yeah that's how abortion when you do polling and you do research for how uh many people view abortion in our

Kristen Hawkinscountry that is how they view abortion is that it's a wrong that it's ending the life of a human being but it's a necessary wrong for for them to continue whatever they feel is a trajectory of

Kristen Hawkinstheir life and that that child inconveniencing them justifies ending their life and that's why I think what Lila was saying earlier was it was sad that we actually didn't get into this at

Kristen Hawkinsall in this conversation is about what are we doing as a nation to transform our culture where no woman feels like she has to choose abortion again because that is part of our work in the pro-life

Kristen Hawkinsmovement it's not just simply educating people about science and biology and reality or you know passing laws it's also tangibly coming beside women and changing policies on whether it's on

Kristen Hawkinscollege campuses or in the workplace or advocating for tangible support services and resources I don't feel like we appropriately got to that point I'll say we should reduce abortions by giving more contraceptives to people and let them keep [ __ ] that's why I actually

Brian Atlashave one question for the upper lifestyle here um and I've heard this come up from people who are either more liberal or pro-choice what would you say to someone

Brian Atlaswho says it's hard to take uh pro-lifers or conservatives seriously on the abortion issue considering their social Darwinism on nearly every other issue

Brian Atlasnow you might reject that premise but I would regret that promise okay um but I've often heard it said that one of the arguments you might hear as well you know they're they're only pro-life in

Brian Atlasthis one one particular instance but you know they're not so in favor of uh you know once the child is born this isn't my position I'm echoing what

Kristen Hawkinswe what we have done in the pro-life movement for 50 years uh while Roe was the law of the land was create a whole social safety net pregnancy centers maternity care centers that vastly outnumber the fewer you know there's

Kristen Hawkinsmore than 3 000 of them that outnumber them the 600 fewer than 600 Planned Parenthood abortion facilities in our country and these are non-profit entities that are in the hardest hit neighborhoods who raise money on their

Kristen Hawkinsown we're a door knocking delivering diapers and formula to actual doors and neighborhoods uh surrounding abortion facilities so that's actually not who we are in the pro-life movement that's not what you know when you look at the money

Kristen Hawkinsraised within the broader pro-life movement the majority of money that is raised in the pro-life movement actually is for uh the the tangible support services so I would say that that

Kristen Hawkinsactually is unfair and it's very untrue of a statement I would say we would have also we can have different policy uh debates about lot of things are very

Kristen Hawkinsimportant that determine you know how humans thrive in our nation but I think we need to also enter in those conversations with good intentions with

Kristen Hawkinsone another not assuming that each other or those on the other side of the aisle just hate human beings you know my position on I don't know immigration or

Kristen Hawkinsschool choice or Health Care might be different than yours but that's not meaning that I'm starting with the assumption that I hate human beings and I think human beings should suffer I would say I have very good reasons for

Kristen Hawkinswhy for example I oppose socialized health care or why I think there should be choice and education and parents should be able to choose to send their children to Charter Schools as opposed to sending them to failing Public

Kristen HawkinsSchools I'm not saying that because I hate children I'm saying that because I think it's a good policy prescription that can benefit Society so I think that's actually you know when you come to those arguments both sides are

Kristen Hawkinsactually saying that they value in life what's different in the pro-life movement is we're saying that valuableness that human dignity that we're giving to a child who's at the

Kristen Hawkinsborder or a child who's stuck in a failing school in Detroit we we believe that child in the womb has that same dignity because we are all human beings and fundamentally the one thing that we

Kristen Hawkinsall have in common is our humanness and human beings deserve basic human rights and that first right is the right not to be killed did you have anything to add Lilo and

Lila Rosethat well I mean we we just released our new North Star Coalition kind of position statement saying we need complete legal protection for all humans in this country you know the abolishing of abortion and we also need to make our country a friendlier place to raise a

Lila Rosefamily um and so that goes to things like a child subsidy I think that if you're a parent you should get a cash benefit you know money back for that child I think we need to make birth free in this country so I do think that there are

Lila Rosesome things that even conservatives can get behind to say listen you know we should be funding things that make our family our country more pro-family found it yeah and uh maybe last thing to go

Brian Atlasout on the uh a lighter note should we all react to that Dave Chappelle clip just on the heavy heavy light I don't know yeah all right let's let's do a little

Brian Atlasclip we'll do we'll react to a little clip here kind of related from Dave Chappelle stands up we'll we'll get the panels uh input and then we're going to wrap up

Brian Atlasall right uh yeah just go ahead and uh

Brian Atlasuh videos tab oh shoot um

Kristen Hawkinsbut what time is your flight I change it when was it uh it was tonight like midnight it's not gonna happen out of where LAX I had to dinner as well so I'm gonna have to stay for breakfast and then when is your uh is

Kristen Hawkinsyour flight to DC or where yeah if you are you worried that you're just gonna miss it or do you have other things you want to do instead I have to have a meeting before I leave so okay I'm stuck here if you show up um

Brian Atlaswait I'm not for abortion can you make it Eric hold on pause pause pause pause uh go to the audio symbol see make sure it's all the way up oh that's weird

Destinyuh uh I don't know if we can we can hear it I was gonna say if you show up late usually they'll let you fly standby on like another flight yeah yeah bro hello can you you're starting from the

Dave Chappelle (clip)beginning can you start from the beginning that'll be real with you and I don't know nobody gives a [ __ ] what I think anyway uh I'm not for abortion oh shut up [ __ ]

Dave Chappelle (clip)[Applause] for it but I'm not against it either

Dave Chappelle (clip)it all depends on consciousness

Dave Chappelle (clip)[Applause] I don't care I don't care right now I don't care what your religious beliefs are anything if you have a dick you need

Dave Chappelle (clip)to shut the [ __ ] up on this one seriously

Dave Chappelle (clip)this is theirs the right to choose is their unequivocal rights not only do I believe they have the right to choose I believe that they shouldn't have to consult anybody

Dave Chappelle (clip)except for a physician about how they exercise that right gentlemen that is fair

Dave Chappelle (clip)and ladies to be fair to us I also believe if you decide to have the baby

Dave Chappelle (clip)a man should not have to pay [Applause] that's fair if you can kill this [ __ ] I can at least abandon them

Dave Chappelle (clip)it's my money my choice

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