Destiny vs. Lila Rose, Kristan Hawkins Abortion Debate | Whatever Debates #1

Date: 2023-06-22

Duration: 4h 19m

Guests

Brian Atlas

DDestiny (Streamer)>

KKristen Hawkins >

Identified Speakers

SPEAKER_01Kristen Hawkins(guest)

SPEAKER_02Lila Rose(guest)

SPEAKER_03TTS/Donations(audience)

SPEAKER_04Dave Chappelle (clip)(audience)

SPEAKER_05Brian Atlas(host)

SPEAKER_07Destiny(guest)

Key Moments

QuoteDestiny clarifies his position as 'pro-abortion' not 'pro-choice'

“I prefer to characterize my position as pro-abortion not pro-choice”

Key MomentKristen raises artificial womb technology as a future argument that would decimate the bodily autonomy justification for abortion

“the artificial womb technology... will decimate the bodily autonomy argument... a woman simply can choose to take the child out from her womb and implant it into an artificial Room to Grow”

QuoteDestiny mocks the steel-man he was asked to give for the pro-life side

“why the f*** would I give them any legal hey whatsoever... all pro-lifers... the only way they can ever win any argument is with charts or graphs”

Key MomentSteel-man exercise: Lila Rose identifies emotional tragic cases (rape/incest) as the most effective pro-choice argument

“the most effective pro-choice pro-abortion arguments are the appeals to extreme emotion and very tragic cases”

QuoteDestiny says an 11-year-old rape victim should not be charged with murder for seeking abortion, but maintains abortion should still be legal beyond 20 weeks in that context

“if it's already a baby why the f*** would you have an abortion just because somebody's younger is going to be dramatically inconvenienced”

Key MomentBurning hospital trolley problem: Destiny poses embryo vs. crying toddlers scenario

“you're in a burning Hospital... there are two children crying on the bed... next to them there's a tray of 10 Frozen embryos... what's the morally correct choice”

QuoteDestiny concedes it would be unethical to abort a pre-conscious fetus for eugenic/racial reasons, but says this is wrong because of the eugenics, not because of killing the fetus

“practicing Eugenics is unethical... even if that means having an abortion of a five-week-old but it's not wrong because you're killing a five-week-old it's wrong because you're practicing Eugenics”

QuoteDestiny calls the pro-life guests 'evil' (unironically) for advocating banning abortion

“you two are evil okay unironically you guys are like out here like get abortion rights and everything banned from all of human society I think that's kind of evil”

QuoteDestiny discloses he was pro-life when his son was conceived; says he would have had an abortion if he had been pro-choice at the time

“I was super pro-life when my kid's mom was pregnant so we had a conversation and I can't have an abortion if I'm pro-life... I would have an abortion about my pro-choice plan”

Topics Discussed

Introductions and opening positions

Brian introduces the debate format. Destiny states pro-abortion position: consciousness begins ~20-24 weeks, no personhood before that. Lila Rose and Kristen Hawkins state pro-life position: all humans have rights from fertilization.

Personhood and consciousness debate

Central debate: what defines personhood? Destiny argues consciousness is the key marker. Pro-life side argues human = person from conception. Discussion covers corpses, comas, brain death, dependency, and the seed-vs-tree analogy.

Artificial womb as compromise

Brian asks panel about artificial womb technology as a middle ground. Lila Rose expresses concern about severing natural mother-child bond but acknowledges it would undermine the bodily autonomy argument. Destiny would support it if government funded.

Terry Schiavo case

Destiny and pro-life guests debate the Terry Schiavo case as an example of determining personhood based on consciousness. Destiny cites court records and autopsy confirming persistent vegetative state; pro-life side disputes the husband's motivations and the medical conclusions.

Bodily autonomy argument

Discussion of bodily autonomy as a pro-choice argument. Kristen raises artificial womb technology as a potential future resolution. Reference to Judith Jarvis Thomson's violinist argument.

Rape and incest edge cases

Steel-man exercise and edge case debate. Pro-life side's best argument: tragic emotional cases (rape, young victims). Destiny's best argument: visual evidence of abortion procedure. Discussion of 11-year-old rape victim scenario and whether pro-life position would charge her with murder.

Superchat Q&A session

Brian reads superchat questions from audience. Topics include: molar pregnancy, Khmer Rouge analogy, abortion pill failure rate, IUD use, eugenics on non-persons, Nazis and disabled children, and the hunter/deer hypothetical.

Eugenics and racial motivation hypothetical

Destiny argues it is wrong to practice eugenics (societal racial breeding plans) but maintains this is separate from whether killing a pre-conscious fetus is wrong. Pro-life side challenges the logical consistency.

Plan B and contraception as abortifacients

Discussion of Plan B's mechanism (may prevent implantation of fertilized egg). Destiny acknowledges this. Kristen raises copper IUD as emergency contraception recommended by Planned Parenthood. Debate over whether fertilization or implantation is the relevant moral line.

Dave Chappelle abortion clip reaction

Panel reacts to Dave Chappelle stand-up clip where he says women have the right to choose but men should have the right to 'financial abortion'. Discussion of legal paternal surrender and child support obligations.

Closing discussion and farewells

Panel discusses future topics (sexual ethics, cultural drivers of abortion). Brian plugs guest social media. Destiny jokes about his website. Brief social media plugs for Lila Rose (liveaction.org) and Kristen Hawkins (studentsforlife.org). Dating Talk returns Tuesday the 27th.

Transcript

Page 2 of 5

Destinybecome a child when does it when is when is it yeah a pre-born life a child in your in your I don't know that's a semantic question I'm not really sure about us using the word you don't really because we're not just having semantic disagreements we're having like very

Destinydiscreet disagreements on morality when do you my disagreement is I don't think that it becomes a person at conception human rights using the word child when does the life you know because now you're just asking about childhood and now you're asking a child

Destinythe reason why we're arguing when you start having your childhood when you start becoming a child when you fully answer the question okay please tell me okay we're having a conversation right now about when something is endowed with

Destinylike moral consideration actually are you a liar I'm just asking I asked you to if I could finish you said I could and now you let me off let's let you lied to me let me finish the question don't lie because you'll lose more consideration okay all right

Destinyno um if the the subject of the debate is when does a fetus become a person okay child is another word for person so when you say okay do you think

Destinywhen you say please you think it's okay to kill a child obviously the answer is no I don't think it's okay to kill a child but that's not the conversation

Destinywhen is something considered a child so that's why I'm obviously going to push when you say you're saying we should kill children two weeks old I don't know a fetus whatever you want to call it but

Destinydo you know what Latin the Latin or fetus mean I don't care I'm not Latin it means young one it's another word for child that's great there are young ones that are puppies I I that doesn't so you have any bearing you're not going to

Lila Roseetymology like win the debate against me so so just do you think puppies get Consciousness at a certain point not humans right we're only allowed to call human life a child at Destiny's arbitrary line of Consciousness what I'm

Destinysaying is that because you're very offended when we use this term so I'm trying to understand when it is in your book correct to you if anybody is triggered in this room it is not me okay so it's funny you keep using the offended line I'm used to okay you disagree strongly no I don't disagree

Destinyyou're just like resupposing the argument that's the issue it's pissing you off when we use the word child is what confirm or deny are you pissed off Destiny no yeah okay um

Destinyit's the same thing as you guys because I know you guys and I guess maybe this is just like in your branches how you purchase conversations but I know you guys get frustrated when people argue with you and you're like you just want to take rights away from the mom oh so you're trying to make moms oh you're turning on baby factories that would be

Destinyif I wanted to engage in the same style of conversation you're engaging I would just say that over and over again why do you want to make Mom's baby factories why do you want to make Mom's slaves you know what is really problematic is when we take away rights from certain groups of people and we force them to do things with their bodies that they don't want to a lot of eugenics was done that way a

Destinylot of the Nazi concentration gets another way in Japan unit 343 did a lot of weird things like that or whatever cases viewing people as people sometimes are not as really problematic then they'll say okay well restricting rights from people especially women has also been

Destinyreally problematic historically welcome to women's suffrage welcome to women being able to own property welcome to women having access to birth control no problem I'll do it just you guys have the problem with the understanding so yeah so but I'm saying I'm not doing that because that's boring to me because

Destinyobviously if you guys thought that a fetus wasn't a human life then you would obviously agree with me and if I agree that a fetus was a human life I would obviously agree with you when you use normatively loaded terms

Destinylike murder a child or commit homicide then all you're doing is you're begging the question because obviously okay nobody at this table and nobody in this room believes in killing children or committing homicide against children

Kristen Hawkinswhen does it become a child I have a question for you though because you just said when the fetus becomes a human being when does the fetus become a human being the human the personhood comes

Kristen Hawkinswhen the conscious experience starts wait biology says moment of conception life life biology does not tell you stop excuse me

Kristen Hawkinslike I talk to my four boys excuse me

Brian Atlasone side if we can and and you know there's been some comments about this um I would like everybody here at the table to have an opportunity to speak so if we can try to try to including Kiki

Brian Atlasyes so if we can try to uh limit the interruptions let people finish their thought and then you know go on I'd like Destiny it to have time to speak I'd like time to speak Kristin you as well

Kristen Hawkinsuh go ahead Chris fetus when does the fetus become a human being because biology says biologists confirm that the moment conception you became a

Kristen Hawkinshuman being you became a member of our species but you kept saying the word it's not a human being so when does the child or entity or whatever term you want to use it doesn't trigger you in

Kristen Hawkinsthe womb become a human being 20 to 24 weeks so you're actually wait this which is very important because you didn't say this at the beginning of the debate beginning of the debate you we're making a moral argument but you weren't saying

Kristen Hawkinsthat it wasn't changing his position you this is what Lila and I were exactly this is what I pointed out like 15 minutes ago yeah that you are using an argument saying that it's Consciousness

Kristen Hawkinsthat Consciousness gives that human being these special personhood rights not to be killed but I have made the argument a while back that you aren't really making that argument because when

Kristen HawkinsI presented a couple other scenarios to you you wouldn't agree with me but the argument what you just said was the scenario where I didn't agree with the argument you just said was it wasn't a human being you just said for everybody

Kristen Hawkinshere that it becomes it becomes a human being at 20 24 weeks that is scientifically unsound because what we've already proven to you is that the

Kristen Hawkinsmoment of conception a unique human being comes into existence do you agree with me that a human being is present in a mother's womb at the moment of

Destinyconception if you want to Define human being as unique genetic code that appears then we can call that a human being but the conversation that we're having right now is not about what a human being is the conversation we're having is when does something get

Destinygranted rights or moral consideration so I think and I would say with your terms then because you kept saying you're the one that's mixing everything up I've been pretty clear and I'll continue to be clear because you're trying to ask me yesterday when does it becoming human being and if you're defining human

Destinybeings then it gets rights then I'll say it 20 to 24 weeks the thing that I've said over and over again and we want I write this word down what I am talking about and I've used this term before is person or personhood and I think that a person a person is not a collection of

Destinycells a person is not some body parts a person is not something that responds to pain or heart pumping blood when we think of people or persons we think of people that are having subjective conscious experiences like we have now

Destinywhen somebody dies we think of that subjective conscious experience ending that's why earlier the question that I asked that I will never get an answer to and I understand why you won't answer it I asked you if a person is going to be in a coma for the rest of life will never wake up can you kill them the

Destinyanswer is obviously yes but the reason why you won't say that that's okay because a comatose person possesses everything I will answer the question for you pre-conscious fetus let me answer the question you can kill that comatose person you can probably kill no

Kristen Hawkinsyou're not killing the problem I think it's wrong you take a gun and kill the person in a coma I think it would be wrong to take sofa clamp and dismember that person from limb who's in a coma I

Kristen Hawkinsthink it's wrong to take a needle and insert digoxin into that person's heart who's in a coma and cause a cardiac arrest all things that happen during abortion by the way we would never argue that a person who's in a coma whether we

Kristen Hawkinsknow they're brain dead or they're not brain dead we don't know because we don't have an actual scenario we're talking about here but we would never say you actively kill a person who's in

Kristen Hawkinsa coma well Lila said I agree with that I agree and you can actually remove care you can remove the the priority apparatus you don't agree with this argument the person it's not an argument that you agree no you just said we

Destinydidn't answer the argument in your question but we did well what happened happened was there was a bit of filibustering where I was trying yeah we can Ramble On to irrelevant things we don't like our answers so you say we do it so what you're doing is you're

Destinypointing out a difference so sometimes in moral philosophy people want to point the difference between doing and allowing harm and there might be a fundamental moral difference between doing harm to somebody versus allowing her to somebody it depends what you mean by those actions sure you're trying to draw some difference here between doing

Destinyallowing harm however none of us here believe that that matters in this case right because if you look at a child none of us here would say that they're that one is morally okay to allow harm versus one is morally okay to do harm for instance if you had a child that was

Destinyconnected to an insulin tube or feeding pump because they had issues with digestion or feeding you wouldn't say that like okay actively killing the child is wrong but if you just disconnected their insulin pump that would be okay because you're passively killing the child we would say no they have a fundamental right to survive and

Destinybe alive and you would say the same thing to a person connected to a machine because if a person was in a coma or not in a coma let's say they were just unconscious okay and we knew they were going to wake up in two weeks if there was a high likelihood of it we would say it's probably unethical to unattach that first of the machine even if all they

Destinydid was sit there and starve to death so this weird description that you're trying or this weird dichotomy you're trying to explain doing versus allowing harm doesn't apply here when we talk about moral consideration I think you're I think there's a false analogy I think there's an

Lila Roseoversimplification here when you're talking about moral philosophy because a lot of it goes into who has the responsibility what my responsibilities and Duties are to you so if I am a doctor and my responsibility and duty is to my patient and I have a child who's

Lila Rosegetting an insulin treatment yes it would be homicidal of me to rip the treatment away from the child if I am a parent and my duty and responsibility as a parent is to provide nourishment for my child and I rip that nourishment away

Lila Rosefrom my child then yes that would be a a potentially a homicidal act it could lead to death and it certainly would be a case of neglect and perhaps abuse so similarly if I as a parent have these responsibilities to my children then I

Lila Rosehave to it would be morally wrong for me to not live out those responsibilities and every child is dependent on his or her mother I do not suddenly become a child or a person at Consciousness you don't we don't even have a clear line of when that is we haven't been able to nail that down and in addition

Lila RoseConsciousness you can go in and out of Consciousness sure so in addition a child before developing Consciousness only needs time to develop that so here's wait wait this is the most important question one thing

Brian Atlasum I'll let you make your point but after you make your point allow me to just come in and I I have a couple questions most important question then respond to what I said though I'm curious your thoughts on what I just said um

Destinydo you disagree with what I said I think they're responsible if there's something do you agree with it disagree it when you start saying things like you should take care of children you can't pull away care for children obviously I agree but okay that's all begging the question we all agree on that the question is when do they become children

Lila Roseso there's nothing no but but but what do you think about the distinction of I have the potential I have the capacity for Consciousness I only need time for that to be realized similar I'm under an anesthetic I can have the capacity for

Lila RoseConsciousness it's not realized because I'm under anesthetic in both cases it's still wrong to kill there's a difference you're not developing the Consciousness why is that difference matter Destiny because there's a difference between a thing and a thing something different

Destinybut hold on let them finish I am getting triggered you're right I'm getting triggered okay hold on we all know Destiny

Destinywell let's just let Destiny respond go ahead Destiny go ahead yeah yeah okay so the the key my question that I'm gonna ask is is if you have a person connected at end of life care when does

Destinyhe become ethical to disconnect them you didn't answer I'll answer that Lila's question but why does your difference matter why does what difference matter the difference of the child you're not even gonna let me finish but I'll tell you the difference the difference is is

Destinythere's a difference between a thing and a thing that something will become those are two fundamentally different things so when you say what's interesting a fetus that hasn't developed the parts to have Consciousness yet versus what's excuse me let me finish verses currently

Destinyunconscious and will become conscious later after anesthesia will wake up the difference is is you're not developing the capacity to have Consciousness there's a continuation of a prior conscious experience all the parts are there to create a conscious experience

Destinythey're just temporary temporarily alleviated they're just no it's not because the fetus has never been conscious and doesn't have the parts to deploy the conscious experience so there's fundamentally a difference was that two or three interruptions that I said were gonna happen right there's fundamentally difference between a thing

Destinydoesn't even have the capability to to have a conscious experience versus somebody else's is temporarily abated by a drug that is the difference thank you for that answer you're welcome why does the continuation of Consciousness matter

Destinythe continuation amount is because the thing I'm valuing is the underlying machine Arena that has the capacity to deploy a conscious experience why because in all the intuition of when we talk about other people and information it seems like well ultimately that's

Destinykind of where morals come from don't they right and at the end of the day at the end of the day the thing that we seem to be valuing at other people seems to be the subjective experience that we're all having with each other okay that seems to be the case under your

Lila Roselogic Destiny yes tell me a newborn child whose Consciousness their memories they won't even have memories as a newborn because your Consciousness as a newborn

Lila Rosechild and even your Consciousness as a one-year-old is very different than your Consciousness as a destiny however old you are okay are you less of a human less of a person excuse me because that's the words where you're you're

Destinyusing here are you less of a person because you have less Consciousness yeah you might be okay interesting just because you're less of a person doesn't necessarily mean that you have like not that fundamental right to be protected if you are less of a person just like a

Lila Roseperson who's prepubescent is less of a person in terms of being like endowed with all the rights of society but they settle the right to lie so let's let's walk this forward then if you're a one-year-old and you're a little bit less of a person than a 20 year old say

Lila Roseshould you have less are your human rights less as a one-year-old than your human rights as a 20 year old where does that your human rights are less as a one-year-old yes but in terms of like right to be killed wait wait human

Lila Roserights are Universal and inalienable they're for everyone we're not talking about rights when you turn 18 to vote we're talking about your Universal inalienable rights where but the idea of a human right is we all share them and

Destinythey can't be taken away from because we're human okay you will recognize that there's a fundamentally different set of like rights for children than there are well I think now if you want to go like right to not be killed that's why you clarify that's why I keep specifying right to not be killed yeah human right

Lila Rosecannot be killed yeah that is a human rights yeah so so just to clarify the amount of how much of a person you are is what you just said does not change your human rights because my human rights as a one-year-old even though I'm less of a person because I'm

Lila Roseless conscious she's a 20 year old I still share the same human rights no if you want to yes okay okay so why would you deprive a child in the womb weeks before developing this uncertain amount of Consciousness that's still very limited compared to even the

Destinyconsciousness of a newborn why would you deprive them the right to life because they haven't become a person yet because they haven't developed that that's a circular argument to become a person you're trying to say

Destinythat let's say that a a person is you're saying let's say a person who's 50 a person at one year old and 100 a person at five years old and let's say you're saying that a second trimester baby is 20 a person well what about

Lila Rosesomebody that's zero percent a person well that's not a person yeah that's very clear very easy very obvious but you're not but you're you're basing that off of though development yeah the developing of a conscious experience

Destinyjust like death is based on discrimination it's maturity discrimination if you want to call it age discrimination you can call it what you want you're trying to like dress it up to intuition well you're using intuition for yourself hold on no no when I say your intuition pumping what I

Destinymean is you're trying to draw all of the negative things of age discrimination are you not addressing the fundamental point of making which is that the conscious experience seems to me and I'll go back to my one question is when can we decide to sell the plug on somebody who's in the hospital what is the what is the defining factor for okay

Lila Rosetell me more about this person in the hospital they're in a coma they're in a hospital okay are they under are they on their own life support yeah I'm gonna guess and they're not medically induced coma correct okay so I would talk to I would want to better understand or did

Destinythey just have a car yeah they had a car accident okay and are they are they brain dead um they might be should we test for that do you think that's important yeah yeah that's very important yeah when you say brain dead what do you mean by brain

Lila Rosedead I mean there can't detect any any brain waves on the person are they flatlining is there is there any heart so are we going to go by detection of brain waves is what we choose because because if what you're getting to it is ethical I believe okay to remove life

Kristen Hawkinssupport when there's no more hope for the person do you think it's ethical to to dismember the person when you remove the life support um I mean like would you do anything wrong if you like said um

Lila Rosethe difference though isn't answer the question this is it's not a proper analogy it's such a good analogy because you enjoy it I know but it's not no no no no no it's

Destinyimportant because you're asking the very human questions I would expect you to ask which are the questions everybody asks is is there brain acting well they're the ethical questions to ask when you're a medical person you're making a decision about whether or not and we don't go by heartbeat we don't go

Destinyby response to external stimuli we don't go back those are often yes those are evaluated when you're determining making life and death decisions in a hospital brain death is usually what we're looking at yes that is that is

Lila Roseabsolutely that is the defining aspect so hold on can I just say ask one question then you are you are making an um equivalence between a person on life support

Lila Roseand a child in the womb as if the child in the womb is on some form of life support that is not that is not correct though that's not correct because when I'm a child in the womb at you when you're in a child of womb you're not on

Lila Rosean extraordinary medical measure to support to keep you alive

Lila Roselet me just say one last thing and I'd love to get done and the only thing that's going to kill you when you're in the womb if not a miscarriage would be an abortion okay you you mean so it it it it doesn't match you still haven't

Kristen Hawkinsanswered the question about the 21 week and six day old I said it's fine you can do yeah they would be past my 20-week cutoff so they'd probably be treated like a child probably that it's assuming that's the

Kristen Hawkinslaw it would be treated like a child so so you're saying that the law is 20 weeks and that is exactly where you're at yes what about the child who's 18 weeks in

Destinythe womb who has spina bifida and the doctors aesthetic correct spine to Memphis oh in the womb If the parents want to that's their choice it's a medical procedure this is my question before you

Kristen Hawkinsmade your farting noises yeah uh does that child at 18 weeks or the fetus or the thing that you want to call it yeah does that child have any any rights no at all nope but see what's interesting

Kristen Hawkinsis you were you're conflating Parts with holes because no I'm not no yeah you were because you keep saying that you earlier and we can rewind the tapes or whatever that the child doesn't have the

Kristen Hawkinscapacity for Consciousness but the child actually does actually have the capacity to have Consciousness at the moment conception no all no excuse me at the moment of conception I told you I'm

Kristen Hawkinsgonna start treating you like a child okay at the moment of conception all of the parts are there right the genetic code is there that's not the parts a blueprint is not a part wait can we wait

Kristen Hawkinslet me let me finish my question yes ma'am so what part gets added in the womb at between zero days

Kristen Hawkinswhere does that part come from Destiny from the blueprints do you think blueprints to a car are the same thing as a car you just but you just said it doesn't matter I said the child the blueprint isn't gonna magically house in

Kristen Hawkinsthe car well but uh but a a one cell thing is not a thing with many songs you're acting as if can you sit up oh my gosh if you're gonna treat me like a kid

Kristen Hawkinslike a destiny please sit up and have good man treat me like an adult uh question about the parts and the holes because I think this is really

Kristen Hawkinsinteresting you just said that the child at 20 weeks has the right to life but the child at 18 weeks has zero right that is correct that was my cut off but

Kristen Hawkinsyou were saying in your arguments with Lila earlier is that the child doesn't have the capacity see for Consciousness and I said that's absolutely incorrect because at the moment of conception all of the genetic material needed for that

Kristen Hawkinschild to obtain Consciousness is there all in what Lila had already said which is very articularly all the child needs is time to grow and time to develop it's

Kristen Hawkinsnot as if a child in my womb at 12 weeks I you know take a needle and insert this like little part into my womb and say bam fetus now you have the capacity for Consciousness no the all the parts are

Brian Atlasalready there sure let's say that I walk by would you agree with me on that fact that all the parts are there just one thing one thing Destiny you respond you respond okay and then I do have to jump in so Destiny go and then okay I'll go

Destinyahead if I walked outside and there was a hundred steel beams and there was a ton of nails and all this [ __ ] laying on the ground and it was organized and I walk over and I push over the steel beams nobody would say oh my God you just destroyed a building all the parts

Destinyfor the building are there the blue presence it would still be vandalism

Destinythe argument here is not whether or not a thing is being terminated we agree it's whether that thing is the thing you're claiming it is it's part of claiming that a thing as a blueprint or can develop the parts in the future

Destinyright there betrays your whole point because you're conceding that it is not the thing itself if I walk by a construction site and I start knocking stuff over I haven't destroyed a building the pieces of a thing are not the thing itself

Lila Roseif you go in and start burning the building before it's built yeah that would be a problem and it would be vandalism and it would hurt it would be vandalism but it hasn't destroyed a building it definitely destroyed what

Destinyyou were building first yes but it didn't destroy a building right yeah but but this is the difference here no that's this is the whole thing if you've destroyed all the materials we're building have you destroyed a building a building is a thing a human being I

Lila Rosethink I think it doesn't match to what our conversation is our life because an embryo is a is a whole unique individual let's come back to that let's come let's go through the coma back really quick because

Brian Atlaswell let's come back to that in a little bit we do have a couple chats to get through here we're going to read through a couple of these chats um if you want give a quick response please and then we'll continue on with

Brian Atlasthe conversation we have about I think 10 or so different chats uh Greg neck thank you for the uh 50 appreciate it I'm pro-life first of all woman let the

Brian Atlasman speak damn it second Destiny Destiny a hypothetical is something that is a scientific you guys should probably spell check these before sending it uh pot things

Brian Atlasthat are unrealistic like a button saying not gonna wake up is unrealistic and impossible redneck thank you there for the donation we have stir the sauce oh nine thank you man HR 1074 if the

Brian Atlasperpetrator commits the predicate offense with the intent to Kill The Unborn Child the punishment for that offense is the same as the punishment provided under fed federal law for

Brian Atlasintentionally killing or attempting to kill a human being explain by the way if you want you can read them on the screen here can we go to the coma or because let's do a few more we got a

Destinyfew more um did anybody want to respond to stir the sauces he's saying that he's trying to make an argument from legality but it's a dumb argument because nobody here believes in that because if the law right now said that killing a fetus incurred no penalty obviously they would disagree with the law if the law says

Destinythat killing a fetus incurs a penalty of homicide I would probably disagree with that law but I mean like okay none of us here are arguing sure what's legal or not all right next chat we have Mickey Hey thank you for the 69 uh donation

Brian Atlasthank you take turns talking it's the woman couple Choice why is it anyone's business who is not going to raise and finance the child have a say all that it's needed to do is provide a safe space for them in order to prevent

Destinyunnecessary casualty due to self-abortion can anybody parse that that's a stupid argument people that say that it's just a decision between the man and a woman is dumb because the what's being debated here is the life of a child if you believe it's a child then it's not just

Brian Atlastwo people that would say over the life of the child ought to be provided some personal negative rights as well all right we have Alvin Sam here if abortion is murder should the woman be charged with that and go to jail credit to roll

Kristen Hawkinsfor this uh Lila or Christians you have a response to Alvin's chat here I believe that Those who commit murder so the abortionists those who would be assisting in the abortion could be tried

Kristen Hawkinswith a crime and actually we've written laws at students for Life action that do make committing abortion a criminal offense we do not believe that a woman should go to jail from abortion because

Kristen Hawkinssadly for 50 years in our country we have told women that it's not murder and it's not killing it's simply a removal of meaningless blobs of tissue that don't have any Consciousness yet which we know is false and so we actually see

Kristen Hawkinsher very much as a second victim of of the abortion industry that tells her that she can't that she isn't capable enough as you know the argument that Destiny was making earlier that women somehow aren't capable enough of walking

Kristen Hawkinsaround this Earth pregnant without you know being locked up or whatever to her potential miscarriage we believe that she absolutely has the capacity to achieve her career goals and her

Kristen Hawkinseducational goals but and sadly Planned Parenthood the nation's largest abortion vendor and the abortion Lobby has told her something different for the past 50 years hold on real quick that's the

Destinyworst answer ever if you believe that abortion is murder then a woman should be held morally responsible for a conspiracy to commit murder if she goes to an abortion clinic full stop end of discussion if you think abortion is murder a woman going to get an abortion should be the same as women going to get

Lila Roseher one-year-old child killed abortion is murder is murder for everybody involved including the woman and I'm I'm more of that position which is that if there's obviously when it comes to homicide there's a lot of um potentially mitigating factors full

Lila Roseintent full knowledge coercion but I think yes if you're willfully and intentionally taking the life of your child there should be criminal penalties got it all right we have Rams here with the Canadian 69 thank you man appreciate

Brian Atlasit maybe we should take policy back to the age-old normal oh to the age-old normal equals babies coming from marriage in society is the norm and therefore out of marriage births will be

Brian Atlasthe exception and overall less births to consider for the mystery of when a fetus is a human okay Rams thank you very much appreciate it did anyone have a response to that or

Brian Atlasuh David Cena can you each describe what happens during an abortion starting with Destiny um I think it depends on where the development of the fetus is but I think normally don't they start putting in

Kristen Hawkinstools cutting it up sucking it out I think it depends on how far along the development is so would you like to go in detail because like if you like your advocating for abortion I think you should be able to tell us what abortion really is my understanding is don't just prior to whatever yeah so I think

Destinygenerally there's like this whole slew of I would call them like Gore porn films like saw and stuff that they have doctors watching beforehand so that when they go in I think the goal is to inflict the maximum amount of Gore and pain on the fetus before they take it out so the first thing you do is you

Destinyopen the vagina as much as possible dilate the cervix give us a serious answer I think they start with little razors it depends on how sensitive the baby is to pain and they start to Flay it alive in the womb and then they pop Like Oxygen so the baby start crying and everything why don't you give a serious

Destinyanswer because the argument of like what happens on some emotional level you're totally conceding any logical points you're conceding because you're trying to win on some like emotionally different points if you want to morally grandstand on it it's fine but I'm not here to like mince words or we're like

Kristen Hawkinsoh well this is what happens well if you support abortion I think you should have the ball I support cremation as well

Destinyyou just said it wasn't a living human being you can try to trap me on semantics but everybody in the audience is what I'm saying your heart is living but it's not a person

Lila Roseyeah of course I mean you were saying this occurs there's metabolism happening it's getting external nutrients you have to clarify just just to make sure I'm understanding you're saying you were saying that abortion isn't gory the way or it doesn't matter that abortion is

Lila RoseGory the way embalming or cremation might be because it's not taking the life of a living person something okay you said human being but then you change it to person because you realize that was bad to say human being because you

Lila Rosealready agreed that humans start at fertilization so but abortion does end the life of something no yeah it does it's terminating some process metabolism yeah so if you consider it yeah it's a

Destinyliving thing yeah so is abortion killing I think something yeah what is abortion kill a fetus what is a fetus however you want to Define it is probably on the total development of

Lila Roselike a human you start as a zygote you begin mitosis and you develop into a fetus and those different fetal stuff aren't you considered a fetus all the way up to like delivery technically yeah so so fetus is a human sure it could be

Lila Roseso it's correct not emotionally but it's correct you're not literally telling you you're not going to win is it correct literally to say then that abortion kills a human no because you're intuition pumping

Destinybecause when you say Humanity why why is she interacting that's the ultimate example of somebody not being confident in their position is to try to win the debate through etymology you're not going to win this debate by trying

Destinyto redefine words in a clever manner if you want to pretend that that's fine but like you're not making any actual like arguments here what you're trying to say is like well do you consider a fetus a human sure do you consider a baby human

Destinyum yeah oh so you want to protect Some Humans but not others I guess what about white women critically the entire time I'll restate it for like the fifth time my point is is the conscious experience whatever you want to call that if you want to call that one it becomes a human before that

Destinyit's just a fetus I'm gonna call that a person or give a person whatever 20 to 24 weeks I thought 20 week Mark is when you get the protections that you're endowed with as a human person or the Constitution of the United States at 20 weeks if you want to call the thing before a fetus or a human fetus or a human thing or whatever you want to call

Destinyit you call whatever you want my position is Crystal Clear I've elucidated on it multiple times so if you guys want to respond go ahead and then I'm going to get some more chats that's abortion kill a human being a human being I probably wouldn't agree to those terms now but if you want me to say yes

Destinyinstead of having the actual argument however I'll say this I can shortcut that whole question the question is stupid and their point of like saying like well look at how bloodied actually this is stupid because I can ask you this question I don't know how to answer if there was a way to do an abortion on a fetus that was 100 Humane that was 100

Destinypain-free they just went in and sucked out and instantly deleted it would you think that that's okay no no it doesn't change whatever right there's no bearing on your argument whatsoever I'm answering questions still an innocent human being sure

Kristen Hawkinsbut I'm just saying that like so the meth the processity abortion has nothing to do with the veracity of the argument so the only reason you bring us to win emotions it's actually very important to the abortion argument because as someone who's talked to women who've gone into

Kristen Hawkinsabortion facilities or have been considering abortion they are actually not fully consented as to what an abortion actually entails and one of the big challenges that we face in the

Kristen Hawkinspro-life movement is actually educating Americans about what an abortion procedure really is is it simply a removal of a couple of cells is it like

Kristen Hawkinsremoving your appendix or a tooth or is it actively ending a human life that has unique genetic unique genetic code so that's a lot this is where it kind of falls apart Destiny in my view and tell

Lila Roseme tell me where I'm wrong here okay so help me understand this you were we were good we were talking about Consciousness and you were saying that Consciousness the reason that con the development of Consciousness matters for personhood and

Lila Roseyou you reference moral intuition okay but you're very uncomfortable with the moral intuition that might also arise when you consider that abortion is the

Lila Rosedirect killing dismemberment poisoning of a pre-born life human and what so why are you uncomfortable with the moral intuition against killing and innocent pre-born life pre-consciousness but

Destinyyou're comfortable with the moral intuition around Consciousness okay just to clarify it is innocent right because you said it like three times okay just making sure okay um I'm not uncomfortable with any

Kristen Hawkinsintuitions that's why I've answered every question ever hypothetical except what happens during abortion you didn't answer well you can talk about that if you want I gave myself your favorite question but you wouldn't answer the question I don't know the exact procedure I described as much as I know

Lila Roseabout abortion I'm sure you know every single gory detail so well we were I was simply going to really hear about what happened well we well we were going down a path where you said that abortion is killing and yes it's a human but then I said so so you're okay with abortion an

Lila Roseact that kills a human and you didn't like that I think your moral intuition told you that doesn't sound right because it doesn't sound right that that you would support an act that kills an and human yeah obviously and but yeah

Destinybut that's what the proportion is Destiny that's what an abortion is moral intuition right now destiny is Raging at all it's rage has been crystal clear the entire time

Brian Atlasevery question and why you guys are running like crazy for my very simple questions well let's do a couple more let's do the chats and then we will come back to that uh we have Juggernaut here

Brian Atlasjust a heads up Juggernaut thank you for the uh Super Chat just it's a little a little iffy so unfortunately we're not gonna wait what is it about it's he's being a bit insulting like he's being a bit rude

Brian AtlasJuggernaut we will read your other Super Chat though so thank you Scott cervini hey thank you for the yeah 50 Super Chat thank you so much man this is a seriously heavy topic for a dating podcast didn't know what I was getting into tonight I'm gonna stay tuned though can't turn away hey Scott thank you so

Brian Atlasmuch for uh the soup chat and thank you for tuning in yeah it's a little different than what we're uh we normally do but um important we talk about dating well I suppose it's abortion is somewhat related to dating and you know and the red pill space I don't think is that

Brian Atlasrelevant a topic it doesn't look like 90 of the audience or version so well I mean I'm just kidding well just related to dating I think it's related seeing as people have sex and then absolutely the consequences of sex can be pregnancy so

Brian Atlassometimes uh Scott thank you uh Jonathan do you think for the Canadian 50 appreciated molar pregnancy occurs after fertilization when replication of cells becomes abnormal the embryo becomes a

Brian Atlastrophoblastic tumor which is cancer it is an embryo before it becomes cancer is a lie alive per Kristin I'm a doctor this is fact please explain I'm not sure

Kristen Hawkinswhat Jonathan is that definitely supports my argument yeah he's talking about a genetic circumstance where Something's Happened that's gone wrong at the moment of conception

Kristen Hawkinsum and and the child doesn't actually fully become a child it's like a um that's why they call it I keep trying to describe it it's a molar pregnancy it's a it's a pregnancy but it's not a

SPEAKER_00human being is that like a stillbirth or yeah but it's not a human being but doesn't it have unique genetic code leads to a miscarriage it's a miscarriage yeah but it is a human being right like children can have but children can have genetic abnormalities

Kristen Hawkinsyeah and a lot of when we talked about miscarriages earlier when you kind of callously made it out like it was nothing um miscarriage has happened because of a genetic abnormality sure but to be clear

Lila Rosethose are children Destiny I think I think we can find agreement on your coma question oh my God

Brian Atlaswe have uh Nobunaga here hey thank you man good to see you back in the chat definition of a child a young human being below the age of puberty or below the age of majority if human life begins at conception like Destiny agreed with

Destinythen factually Destiny is wrong your response destiny I didn't consider check dictionary.com moral philosophy [ __ ] name thank you no bun no Nobunaga redneck hey genius I'll

Brian Atlasread this one while it's upgrading okay thank you for the 50. sorry for the bad text what I get from this is Destiny agrees with you on that it is killing deleting after conception but the right to life begins with person of the 20

Brian Atlasweeks and before that uh and before that it doesn't matter to him by the way love your podcast Brian gradnick thank you um destiny do you have a response to yeah that's probably what I read you're killing something right all right okay

Brian Atlasand then we have here I think we had nobunagas I think oh wait hold on oh this is the second one uh Nobunaga hey can I read this one sure good okay definition of a person uh quote a human

Destinybeing regarded as an individual end quote since Destiny agreed that the unique human look that the unique human DNA begins a conception then he is also wrong again words have meaning and Destiny is looking like a fool by trying

Brian Atlasto move the goal post thank you for the 49.99 okay Nobunaga thank you do you ever uh response to him or is that sufficient if he's going to bring out Merriam-Webster

Destinywho am I to contradict him okay there you go Nobunaga um oh here's another do you want to read this one too Destiny is wrong again on Consciousness Alzheimer's is a thing they're a case of people who get

Destinyconcussions go into a coma and don't remember or suffer from memory loss his arguments are a bunch of BS and I bet he doesn't mean Bachelor of Science

Lila Rosethey lose their Consciousness yeah that's crazy okay but there's just as much a person who is Terry Shiva because because Consciousness does not give you your Humanity or your personhood but it seems like that's when we decide it's

Brian Atlasgone right yeah worthy of life thank you for the big 200 Super Chat wow was who's Terry shivo Terry shivo is a woman who they're not

Lila Rosesure how she had the accident but she ended up in a severely disabled State um some called her a vegetable but her family said she's not a vegetable she's interacting with us and she's a human being human beings aren't vegetables and her husband in a very famous court case

Lila Rosewell he had a mistress and he was actively separated from Terry because he was her guardian um euthanized her chose to kill her in the State of Florida it was in the 90s and the way he

Kristen Hawkinseuthanized her was that he they refused food and water she died of she died of dehydration she didn't die available condition she died of dehydration okay that's back to the tell me when we can

Brian Atlasdo yeah yeah we're about halfway through some of these chats all right we have uh Henry and pleasure's never as pleasant as we expected it to be and pain is always more painful the pain in the world always always the pleasure if you don't

Brian Atlasbelieve it compare the respective feelings of two animals one of which is eating the other hey Henry Ann thank you for the Super Chat appreciate it we have Christopher Fisher here thanks for the soup chat according to the NIH several conditions May mimic brain death

Brian Atlaslockdown syndrome hypothermia drug intoxication golion Julia how do you pronounce that gold bar Gillian Barr syndrome delayed paralytic clearance all

Brian Atlasmimic brain death but all have recoverable uh with due time okay Christopher Fisher thank you for the uh Super Chat appreciate it

Brian Atlasum we have Dr Ocho thank you Destiny you need to start asking them to restate your position back to you it's becoming exceedingly obvious that they are either not listening or responding in bad faith

Brian AtlasLila seems like she's kind of trying though so shout out to Lila uh Dr Ocho thank you I'll try to do better I'm truly and then uh we have Jonathan D here

Brian Atlasmerci beaucoup for the Canadian 50. uh Mueller oh did we wait did we read this one or is this a different molar pregnancy does not result in miscarriage Google invasive molar pregnancy it can

Kristen Hawkinsin fact spread the abnormal in the sense that the child is no longer alive so that there's no child that's what okay but but yes this is a quick thing I just Googled molar pregnancy for everyone who's confused sure a tumor that

Kristen Hawkinsdevelops in the uterus as a result of a non-viable pregnancy there may or may not be an embryo or placental tissue in some cases a molar pregnancy there is an embryo it's not properly formed and it

Kristen Hawkinscannot survive it's very rare fewer than two twenty thousand cases a year in the United States and a routine blood tests can just for anyone who's concerned uh routine blood

Destinytests can determine whether or not you are having a molar pregnancy okay uh also just to clarify earlier um because these guys wildly misrepresented the Terry shrive okay so I just wanted to look at the Factor

Destinybefore um I corrected them uh one is Terry scheibel had made several statements two family members that if she were to ever be alive in some participant vegetative state she would not want to be kept alive and definitely say she wanted

Destinynumber one you said that to multiple she had said that to multiple family members these are in court records and secondly she was absolutely in a persistent vegetative uh state that autopsies afterwards confirmed she was likely

Destinynever to wake up from her brain literally was half the weight of where it was supposed to be for somebody that's actually not true that's fine if you disagree with that but you now you're disagreeing with now we're not arguing normative beliefs now we're arguing scientific fact the autopsy reports and the people that analyzed her

Lila Rosebrain agreed just as much her brain was in a worse State than another woman prior to her who had been um unplugged because of similar issues she was disabled but you being she was not disappeared

Lila Roseshe was she had a severe intellectual disability no dude accident but that doesn't justify starving her and do you think it doesn't justifies

Destinyhold on yeah no I'll cut you off that doesn't to compare somebody that vegetative state that somebody with severe intellectual disabilities is a wild thing she was not

Destinyseverely intellectually disabled she was a vegetable she was a brain and did not respond to external stimuli and the autopsy confirmed Justice there have been people who doctors have said are on persistent vegetables that's what we're talking about here yeah it is what we're

Lila Rosetalking about here because there are people who doctors have said are on persistent vegetative state who went on to fully wake up and recover did you know that that's fine autopsy on this concluded They concluded from the medical records and consultations with

Destinymedical experts that the scope and weight of the medical information within the file concerning Terry schravo consists of competent well-documented information that she is in a persistent vegetative state with no likelihood her husband wanted her that the neurological and Speech Pathology evidence in the

SPEAKER_06file support the contention that she cannot take orally or hydration and cannot consciously interact with her environment destination she was super brain dead I don't care what the husband said the statements that were used to verify whether she could be

Lila Rosesorry those were her statements that was what is legally entered and scientifically the evidence does not exist that she was ever going to wake up the part you're not the discussion the part you're not referencing is that the doctors that looked at her were paid for

Kristen Hawkinsby her husband who wanted her dead okay all the courts disagree with you and all the autopsies disagree with you well I think her family would actually disagree with you as well Bobby Schindler and her I don't care I'm not I'm not here to ask

Destinythe questions of the family what's entered on the why would I care what a family member has because they were the ones interacting with her yeah but they're you think they're going to be the least biased interpreters of what's Happening medically in some event

Kristen Hawkinsdo you do you think that their experience and their interactions with her their conscious experiences with her didn't matter yes I don't think they mattered well uh

Brian Atlasone question for for Lila or I mean you too I guess uh is this Terry Shiva thing does it come up it was a huge it's frequently older abortion discourse not

Destinyfrequently but it was a big case because okay are they were like the same age it was particularly the name is maybe because I live in a republican household it was a really big deal because of all the I've heard their arguments a million

Destinytimes where the argument that that people present is that she was she was there and she was communicating with family members in the hospital and her evil horrible husband who was [ __ ] a mistress on the side just wanted to terminate her life to get away from everything that's usually the arguments

Destinyand they dehydrated we took her 10 days to die you look at all of the medical evidence in that case overwhelming that's why all they can say is like doesn't the family member in the room matter well no do you think the way they killed Terry was an ethical way of

Destinykilling her um no at that point I don't give much ethical consideration because I don't think it's even a person at that point so are you less of a person if you have dementia um you can argue but you're not not a

Lila Roseperson when do you not not become a person you no longer can deploy a country well then if you're asleep then or if you're you're in there between somebody and you're not deploying yourself experience when I'm mother and you can wake up why

Lila Rosedo you keep using this as an example because because with an embryo you can develop you can't awaken embryo up they don't have the parts yeah you give it time it takes time

Kristen Hawkinsso do you is that what you believe that there's something that like happens it comes down from the sky no it actually hold on hold on do you think that something magically comes down well hey you're the one who like these

Kristen Hawkinsthings it comes down from the sky and inserts into the woman's womb after the child is already alive and developing which you've already agreed to as a human

Kristen Hawkinsbeing do you think that's how a child develops Consciousness some some other part has to get added like she goes to the OBGYN hold on we have to insert the

DestinyConsciousness part yeah I thought because when women go for ultrasounds don't they have like the long amniocentesis isn't that like when they put the Consciousness in the baby

Kristen Hawkinsthe argument you're making is that the child in the room doesn't have compat have the capacity for Consciousness because a child isn't 20 weeks old yet and what we've said multiple times is at

Kristen Hawkinsthe moment of conception which you agreed all those genetic components are already there there's a genetic component because the genetic code comes into existence genetic component is

Kristen Hawkinsanother word for blueprint a blueprint is not the thing itself do you well when how do you think a child gets Consciousness do you do you honestly think that there's like a part that's

Destinyinserted into the uterus that then gives you think I honestly think that why do you ask it that way do you honestly think think do you really think I honestly because I don't think you're that stupid okay thank you okay because you keep asking this where do you think I would say what do you think my answer would be where does Consciousness come

Kristen Hawkinsfrom how does it happen tell me what you think I would say I'm so curious I actually don't know because you keep saying that the child in the womb yeah because when you have the argument with Lila about coma that you've talked about like Ad nauseam at this point I'm

Destinygetting sick of the same argument over and over again bro let's talk about viability child please I'm sorry you just like literally keep talking while I'm talking does this all count as one Interruption

Kristen Hawkinsremember to ask you the question yeah no but when you're you keep arguing that the child in the womb has no rights that can be terminated killed brutally dismembered brutally Yes actually

Kristen Hawkinsbrutally you admitted that earlier the only types of abortions are in favor of yes abortions are very gruesome so you said that has no rights and that that because a child hasn't developed Consciousness it doesn't have the

Kristen Hawkinscapacity and what the argument that Lila and I have made multiple times today is that the child just needs time to grow because the child has everything the child needs no it does to develop

Kristen Hawkinsto live yeah you're the one making this argument if you're the one making the argument that personhood doesn't begin until Consciousness tell me how the child in

Kristen Hawkinsthe womb develops Consciousness explain it for me because I don't think you understand what happens at the moment of conception okay you probably know the process better than me okay so I'm gonna try my

Destinybest okay and then correct me before I'm wrong okay so the egg sees a bunch of sperm guys around they let one in usually not always usually one comes in and then the egg and the sperm come

Destinytogether and when they come together the cells begin to grow and divide now over time once you've gotten to hundreds or thousands of cells billions different billions of cells probably not Instagram there's like hundred thousand ten

Destinythousand and eventually billions of cells right I think that you have little things called stem cells that go to different parts of the body and begin to grow and develop based on the genetic code you have and how things are being directed right during that process okay I'm sure there's a more complicated way

Destinyto explain it that's about as well I understand it so what I would say is when does the baby get Consciousness it's not magical what happens is is there are parts of your brain that stem cells are hanging out in that are still growing out of developing it's getting

Destinynutrients from the Mom it's developing along some normal path and at some point it develops the parts and then those parts begin to metabolize things and function and then you have that conscious experience so it develops the

Kristen Hawkinsparts it develops parts thank you you just admitted it that at the moment of conception what I'm admitting this is presence can you can we have you sitting straight up

Destinyhe's in his child do I really am I is that like a rule well it's just like it wasn't on the release I signed you have to sit up that was on any of the birds wait look at the camera chode on me

Destinywhy can't I answer a question why do you keep like talking can I answer the question you did and I didn't get the answer you actually just proved you were making the point that you said it develops so you proved my

Destinypoint wrong develops implies you didn't have it that's why you develop it you don't develop it where did it come from did the magic conscious fairy deliver it in my vagina the reason the child got

Lila RoseConsciousness is because the child the human developed its Consciousness yes naturally just like you will develop as you get older yes age you'll be you'll have an aging process the toddler will

Destinydevelop age into an adult until you've developed the parts necessary to have a conscious experience you're not having and we're saying that's illogical and not illogical and you're perfectly logical just like if I give you the blueprints and the parts and I show you

SPEAKER_06something the parts in the blueprint don't go vroom vroom but when I put the car together and I turn the key on it does go I wouldn't say that just because I've got the parts and I've got the blueprint I've got the Vroom Vroom I

Lila Rosewould say after it's all put together then it has the destiny unlike a car and parts and someone putting in a key an embryo that's developing is self-developing and self-actualizing

SPEAKER_06with nourishment from within time with nourishment and time it's you can say a self-building car that's building sure it goes I'll say a self if you want to use everything in a car a self-building car with all the parts in the blueprint that can decide so it's still not a car

Lila Roseuntil it's put together hold on hold on we want to use your car analogy if I go buy a baby Tesla because it's a tiny self-building baby Tesla and if I leave it in a room with oxygen and put a

Lila Rosecouple gasoline things along the wall we'll develop into this Mega beautiful Tesla okay I would be very angry with anyone who came into my garage where baby Tesla was and kill baby Tesla and

Lila Rosesaid well it wasn't a Tesla yet because it wasn't big and and all the way developed yet I'd say it it would have been if you didn't kill it if you didn't destroy my test what happened but it was still a Tesla 99.

TTS/Donationshave my abortion destiny that was very rude why did that one get to play but but it was the I what the TTS triggers 199 and up okay

Lila Roseso they can install me for 199. I see how it is blueprint will never become a car and embryo will become a newborn if you don't kill it or it's not miscarried do you see the difference in

Destinywhy your analogy doesn't work the point I know that a car and a child are not the same thing well but your analogy also doesn't work your application of the two things the reason why you make analogies is to show some part of the

Lila Roseargument that's similar and I've seen you your argument is wrong and faulty because your analogy doesn't work do you see that because a blueprint doesn't develop into a car without somebody else going in so do you think any other thing developing itself is like the thing that

Lila Rosemakes it a human the fact that it develops itself that's one of the qualities of being a unique individual human is that you can grow yes and you can develop okay I disagree I don't think that that makes you so you're

Destinysaying you're saying that it's not an aspect of a of a it is an aspect of it's not core to being an organism that an organism grows it's a nature cancer you just described okay

Destinycancers are things that grow on their own and development are you equating a cancer to a unique uh human organism it's gonna be pretty unique but no I'm not equating you keep saying you keep

Lila Rosedoing this thing where when I make a conversion are you saying this thing is the same thing no that's the point of a comparison is to just show you the fault of your argument Destiny the point of a comparison is to expose where there is logic or a lack of logic and I'm exposing it the lack of lunch when I'm

Destinytrying to get through that there's actually a lot of logic I understand is that a thing that is developing into another thing is not the thing it's not understanding because it's not developing into another thing it's

Kristen Hawkinsdeveloping itself let me ask you questions biology question do you believe a woman's body tells the child how to develop is that your is that where you think how babies

Destinydevelop do you think the woman's body tells the embryo how to develop I mean it depends on on how philosophically going to get that you could argue yes it provides half the instructions during

Destinyinsemination that is how that works yeah but so after so technically yeah after the woman's body is contributing half the DNA now if you want to cut it off at the conception Mark which obviously you can but for a variety of reasons

Destinyteleologically after human life has been created after you need it we assume all the hard Parts away well then yeah at that point it is an independent thing that I don't think my guess is no at that point the mother probably doesn't dictate the girl that's right because

Kristen Hawkinsthe child as Lila has pointed out is self-directed the child tells it's the girl the self-directed while taking nutrients from her mom yeah absolutely the child any human being the child is in its natural state I don't think any human being past gestation is connected

Kristen Hawkinsto other human beings every human being passed gestation needs nutrients not other and no other human being is connected unless you my infants uh needed my breasts to survive because I

Kristen Hawkinswas producing milk why does it if it's over there wait wait but Destiny now no they're not connected

Destinyyour connectedness the degree to which you're dependent or connected to your parent determines your personhood that seems to be where you're going with that article not at all where I've gone where are you going here's what I would say okay this is what I would guess okay

Destinywhat I would say is broadly speaking 20 to 24 weeks is about when you develop a conscious experience so in about 20 weeks I would probably cut it off because when Consciousness forms that's when the subjective experience the

Destinyperson The Who begins why why does that matter because that seems to be the thing that we care about when we're talking about you care about that's what you care about the lives that matter everybody cares about it no that's what we talk about Terry shivo notice what

Destinyyou're defensive majority of Americans actually oppose two hundred dollars what

Destinythe thing that you were trying to say was hold on Terry Schreiber wasn't totally brain dead she didn't intellectual disability that shows that you yourself were trying to grab at that idea that she still had some conscious experience because at the end of the day we all know that's the only thing that

Destinymatters no Sherry shiver was alive there's no doubt about that her body was alive first person accounts of her okay and let's say that you chop off their arm and you replace it with a bionic arm is that still a person

Destinyyes what if you get rid of the heart and replace with a buying a card is that still a person yes and then at some point what if you replaced right now let's say we've got a full human what if you just replace the brain is that still the same person there have I mean yeah if that's

Lila Rosepossible I mean if you get to that point okay it's ever been done successfully okay I mean it'd be an interesting question

Lila Rosebut it still would be wrong to kill that person Destiny I have a question are you saying if brain implant brain implants are possible it's okay to kill someone who successfully has a brain implant is that what you're saying no okay because then then

Destinywhy do you ask that question why is it relevant to whether or not you can kill the embryo I my mind is so blown I need a second to recover okay I've got a question I didn't anybody that bit the bullet on the brain

Lila Rosetransplant makes you the same person thing well I think it's I think it's gonna it's great I mean people say if you have a heart a heart transplant um well there there's people say I feel a little bit different there's something the subject I haven't changed you might

Lila Rosehave different feelings but but I don't think you are your brain Destiny so this is also a question really what am I uh you are you are a human being which is made up of many parts okay but you're gonna say that you could cut my body

Destinyright cut my neck off right you cut right dismember of the neck let's say you can choose to keep one thing alive my head and put it on another body or the whole rest of my body and put another head on what would you choose to

Lila Rosemake it me well I would it's less about which one is you and it's more about do I have the right to kill even no that's what we're debating here

Lila Rosethis is a story of wolfensteins so it's real it can happen no no this is World War II Destiny this is a very important point I agree but you totally don't want to answer it no I am answering it because whether or not you

Lila Rosecan we we had the technology to put a new brain in someone else's brain right or we had the technology to cut off your head put on somebody else and then put a different head on that other body I mean the question of is that person still Destiny or is that a new person those

Lila Roseare questions to explore but in both cases it would be wrong to kill Destiny with a new body that maybe is part Destiny or destiny with the new brain that's maybe part Destiny I don't know

Destinyif that's true I don't think I believe that well that's an interesting position no I think you agree no I cut a person I cut a person's head off okay let's say that I stick the head on a bionic body and then let's say that I take a body and I put a bionic head on well I don't

Destinythink people would go oh my God there's two Stevens they would go wow Steven has a bionic body they wouldn't go wow there's Stephen with a bionic head they would say this is Stephen because we are our brains yeah because we are the conscious experience we have I mean just

TTS/Donationslike brains are various in the world but to clarify our brains are very very important but just to clarify our brains are very important but you're but you're laughing too hundred dollars triple

TTS/Donationsseven triple seven triple seven triple seven triple seven triple seven triple seven triple seven seven seven seven seven seven seven seven seven seven seven seven seven seven seven seven seven seven seven

Lila Roseseven seven seven okay thank you our brains our brains are very important I agree but there's also a mystery there right about about what

Lila Rosemakes a human as in terms of the soul and the body connection because you can have a lobotomy you can have a part of your brain removed there's the story of a baby like Jackson who's born missing a large portion of their brain

Destinyum because of hydrocephaly or anencephaly and in those cases you still have a person and it would still be wrong to kill the person didn't they kill Jackson no Jackson's alive which one was the uh oh it's like six surf or

Destinywhatever right that wasn't even like it wasn't it wasn't amazing it was

Kristen Hawkinsand he lived for about four years of part of his brain and he's it's actually a common um justification for late term abortion when children are diagnosed in utero

Lila Rosewith hydrocephaly or anencephaly when their brain hasn't fully developed or their brain is sure I mean it's all hasn't fully developed it's ableist to say that because you lack some brain function because your brain I'm not talking about lacking something let me

Lila Rosefinish it for a moment it's ableist to say that because you lack some brain function or you have Dementia or your brain is less developed or you're missing a part of your brain that you are less human and it's okay for someone it goes back to my slippery slope argument early like at the beginning

Previous 1 2 3 4 5 Next