Destiny vs. Lila Rose, Kristan Hawkins Abortion Debate | Whatever Debates #1

Date: 2023-06-22

Duration: 4h 19m

Guests

Brian Atlas

DDestiny (Streamer)>

KKristen Hawkins >

Identified Speakers

SPEAKER_01Kristen Hawkins(guest)

SPEAKER_02Lila Rose(guest)

SPEAKER_03TTS/Donations(audience)

SPEAKER_04Dave Chappelle (clip)(audience)

SPEAKER_05Brian Atlas(host)

SPEAKER_07Destiny(guest)

Key Moments

QuoteDestiny clarifies his position as 'pro-abortion' not 'pro-choice'

“I prefer to characterize my position as pro-abortion not pro-choice”

Key MomentKristen raises artificial womb technology as a future argument that would decimate the bodily autonomy justification for abortion

“the artificial womb technology... will decimate the bodily autonomy argument... a woman simply can choose to take the child out from her womb and implant it into an artificial Room to Grow”

QuoteDestiny mocks the steel-man he was asked to give for the pro-life side

“why the f*** would I give them any legal hey whatsoever... all pro-lifers... the only way they can ever win any argument is with charts or graphs”

Key MomentSteel-man exercise: Lila Rose identifies emotional tragic cases (rape/incest) as the most effective pro-choice argument

“the most effective pro-choice pro-abortion arguments are the appeals to extreme emotion and very tragic cases”

QuoteDestiny says an 11-year-old rape victim should not be charged with murder for seeking abortion, but maintains abortion should still be legal beyond 20 weeks in that context

“if it's already a baby why the f*** would you have an abortion just because somebody's younger is going to be dramatically inconvenienced”

Key MomentBurning hospital trolley problem: Destiny poses embryo vs. crying toddlers scenario

“you're in a burning Hospital... there are two children crying on the bed... next to them there's a tray of 10 Frozen embryos... what's the morally correct choice”

QuoteDestiny concedes it would be unethical to abort a pre-conscious fetus for eugenic/racial reasons, but says this is wrong because of the eugenics, not because of killing the fetus

“practicing Eugenics is unethical... even if that means having an abortion of a five-week-old but it's not wrong because you're killing a five-week-old it's wrong because you're practicing Eugenics”

QuoteDestiny calls the pro-life guests 'evil' (unironically) for advocating banning abortion

“you two are evil okay unironically you guys are like out here like get abortion rights and everything banned from all of human society I think that's kind of evil”

QuoteDestiny discloses he was pro-life when his son was conceived; says he would have had an abortion if he had been pro-choice at the time

“I was super pro-life when my kid's mom was pregnant so we had a conversation and I can't have an abortion if I'm pro-life... I would have an abortion about my pro-choice plan”

Topics Discussed

Introductions and opening positions

Brian introduces the debate format. Destiny states pro-abortion position: consciousness begins ~20-24 weeks, no personhood before that. Lila Rose and Kristen Hawkins state pro-life position: all humans have rights from fertilization.

Personhood and consciousness debate

Central debate: what defines personhood? Destiny argues consciousness is the key marker. Pro-life side argues human = person from conception. Discussion covers corpses, comas, brain death, dependency, and the seed-vs-tree analogy.

Artificial womb as compromise

Brian asks panel about artificial womb technology as a middle ground. Lila Rose expresses concern about severing natural mother-child bond but acknowledges it would undermine the bodily autonomy argument. Destiny would support it if government funded.

Terry Schiavo case

Destiny and pro-life guests debate the Terry Schiavo case as an example of determining personhood based on consciousness. Destiny cites court records and autopsy confirming persistent vegetative state; pro-life side disputes the husband's motivations and the medical conclusions.

Bodily autonomy argument

Discussion of bodily autonomy as a pro-choice argument. Kristen raises artificial womb technology as a potential future resolution. Reference to Judith Jarvis Thomson's violinist argument.

Rape and incest edge cases

Steel-man exercise and edge case debate. Pro-life side's best argument: tragic emotional cases (rape, young victims). Destiny's best argument: visual evidence of abortion procedure. Discussion of 11-year-old rape victim scenario and whether pro-life position would charge her with murder.

Superchat Q&A session

Brian reads superchat questions from audience. Topics include: molar pregnancy, Khmer Rouge analogy, abortion pill failure rate, IUD use, eugenics on non-persons, Nazis and disabled children, and the hunter/deer hypothetical.

Eugenics and racial motivation hypothetical

Destiny argues it is wrong to practice eugenics (societal racial breeding plans) but maintains this is separate from whether killing a pre-conscious fetus is wrong. Pro-life side challenges the logical consistency.

Plan B and contraception as abortifacients

Discussion of Plan B's mechanism (may prevent implantation of fertilized egg). Destiny acknowledges this. Kristen raises copper IUD as emergency contraception recommended by Planned Parenthood. Debate over whether fertilization or implantation is the relevant moral line.

Dave Chappelle abortion clip reaction

Panel reacts to Dave Chappelle stand-up clip where he says women have the right to choose but men should have the right to 'financial abortion'. Discussion of legal paternal surrender and child support obligations.

Closing discussion and farewells

Panel discusses future topics (sexual ethics, cultural drivers of abortion). Brian plugs guest social media. Destiny jokes about his website. Brief social media plugs for Lila Rose (liveaction.org) and Kristen Hawkins (studentsforlife.org). Dating Talk returns Tuesday the 27th.

Transcript

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Destinynext to slavery no because you may get slippery soap you you've separated out personhood from being human gotcha and then some babies like Jackson is um some children uh hydrocephalus was an

Destinyissue with Jackson I believe it was also a really famous case in the United Kingdom where parents are trying to fly around their hydrocephalus kid's brain or they were trying to fly this kid's body around and get them like treated by doctors or whatever but the issue is you

Destinycan have some like very basic human function I think you can respond I was talking to you not them I didn't want them to hear okay okay um the problem is like the brain stem allows you to have some basic really basic human function like response to stimulus I think you can respond to

Destinylight you might be able to respond to like hot things I think but there is no conscious experience there it's I don't even know if you would argue baby Jackson was having conscious experiences I've met him no that's great I mean you can talk to his family I'm sure you can

Kristen Hawkinsand I would probably feel the same way I do like the expert in determining who's everyone's Consciousness yes and what conscious experiences everyone has said that yes that is that problem with your whole argument is your argument I know the appeal to science

Kristen Hawkinsare trying to say that you get to be this this determinant of as to what types of experiences people have to have in Consciousness in order to be persons and deserve not the right the right not

Kristen Hawkinsto be killed because I brought up to you earlier about the the situation of children in the womb from a pro-choice and a pro-life biologist who agree that 12 and a half weeks a child can feel pain a lot of folks would say that would

Kristen Hawkinsmean there's Consciousness there no there is nobody would say or about the well excuse me these biologists would bring more of that next time that nobody would agree or the basic responses in the brain sometimes who are

Kristen Hawkinsinteracting with each other a lot of people would say well that obviously proves Consciousness you have this arbitrary definition of Consciousness that is is really a slippery slope

Kristen Hawkinsbecause you already made it early in the conversation Lila got you on no I think some people don't actually actively listen and just wait to talk gotcha but I would say Lila got you at

Kristen Hawkinsone point at one point Lila was asking you about the conscious experiences of a toddler base versus what was an adolescent or a 20

Kristen Hawkinsyear old and I would even ask probably about quite different and you then admitted that those conscious experiences are different and therefore there should be varying degrees of personhood which I go back to the fundamental principle

Lila Rosethat's a bad distance if you put if you put intellectual abilities or development as a qualifier for whether or not you are protected from lethal acts from homicide

Brian Atlasum you're opening the door to tremendous Injustice and that's what's happened with abortion tremendous I I have a question for uh Lila and Kristen here are you it's been two hours so if uh if

Brian Atlasuh you guys had to steal man the other side and be charitable what is the best argument argument that you come up against from the other side the most

Lila Rosecompelling argument the other side makes and Lilo let's have you go first go ahead so I would say it's not the Consciousness argument because I do think that that is pretty um it's it's pretty arbitrary and it's

Lila Rosealso the moral intuition that's sort of guiding Destiny you could easily apply that before Consciousness so I don't think Consciousness and also you can be unconscious when you're sleeping or under anesthetic and a toddler has less Consciousness than an adult Etc so it doesn't really work I think the most

Lila Roseeffective pro-choice pro-abortion arguments are the appeals to extreme emotion and very tragic cases and those are those are I think what win the most most people over because they say oh my

Lila Rosegosh I can't imagine imagine forcing you know a a rape Survivor to give birth to the rapist baby so you hear these really tragic cases that are horrific that are heartbreaking and they tug in a lot of people's heartstrings and you know the

Lila Roseresponse the Pearly response to that of course just hearing of this horrifically tragic case of this very young girl who's the victim of incestor rape and she's pregnant is to acknowledge that it's horrific because it is and it should never have happened sure and that

Lila Rosethat girl deserves Justice and that that perpetrator needs to be held accountable um and then you have to ask the question okay what what next right what is the next thing to do here and the girl needs medical care she needs counseling it

Lila Roseneeds to be removed from that dangerous situation but is the answer to commit an act of violence against this new now third party in in this scenario this pre-born life that is not the

Brian Atlasperpetrator of the crime this is my Steel Man position not necessarily I'm responding positions the Steel Man position uh generally speaking and in this country you know we

Lila Rosegive the death penalty we we actually are forbidden by federal law to give the death penalty to rapists in the United States but in an abortion um you would be giving the death penalty to that pre-born life and when you're

Lila Rosedoing that too you know it's done in the name of protecting that girl or that woman but that act of abortion isn't going to unrape her it's not going to take away the trauma that she endured by the rape it's only going to Levy another unjust act against her that child that

Lila Rosedeveloping life that deserves life just like you and me so well it's a horrifically tragic case unfortunately when it's represented without any CounterPoint in media I think it is effective in winning people to the grocery side now we had second class citizenship for a long time in our

Kristen Hawkinscountry and throughout human history we've tried second class citizenship and it's you know saying that children who were conceived out of wedlock for example used to be considered bastards and not be allowed to own property or

Kristen Hawkinsobtain certain you know levels of positions in their in their um professional lives and we've started we said no that's actually wrong like a child doesn't is not at fault for what

Kristen Hawkinshappens the night of his or her conception or the state of marriage of his or her parents that the child is unique whole living human life that deserves fundamentally the right to not be killed that right to life liberty and

Destinypursuit of happiness so yeah my answer would be the same as the highlights okay got it and Destiny what what would you say is the best argument that you why would I they didn't understand my position at all why the [ __ ] would I give them what any legal hey whatsoever

Brian Atlasthat was insane holy [ __ ] why don't necessarily steal man but what is the best argument you come up against from the pro-life side as someone who's the emotional ones when

Destinythey bring out the tools and like this is what it's like to kill a baby in the womb or just saying child obviously the issue is that all pro-lifers are is it unhinged lunatics and the only way they can ever win any argument is with charts or graphs so this is what uh

Destinythat's not giving it out and the baby cries you can hear the baby I was just getting sucked into the vacuum those are the best arguments they're so good they're so hard to argue against because scholar one time and I actually asked we

Kristen Hawkinshad a really great conversation she was actually being intellectually honest at the end of the conversation and she is typical they're still not in my position changed a lot of emails back and forth and we were going back of what we thought each other's best arguments were

Kristen Hawkinsand I thought it was very interesting that you didn't really want to answer the question earlier you didn't answer these questions at all about what if I'm wrong versus because I actually think your position's extreme it's a very Reckless position it

Kristen Hawkinswas yours to start especially when you're talking about women no because your recklessness results in tens of millions of children being put to death that's that's the result of your records tens of millions of children dying every

Destinyday to Accidental miscarriages anyway so it's not like that much worse if I buy into your position right so because children die from car accidents it's okay to run them over with a car no I'm saying that it wouldn't be less it wouldn't be as tragic if 20 000 children

Destinydied from car accidents if they were already like a million years because there's accidental deaths no what I'm saying is that if you're trying to make some appeal to a broader tragedy the tragedy loses a lot of gravity question I posed earlier what is the question I'm

Destinynot answering because what what what if you're wrong I already answered if I'm wrong if I'm wrong it's pretty bad it's pretty bad who are you Catholic or religious that's actually what is your denomination what is your denomination

Destinywhy does that matter well what if you're wrong I am Catholic I convert okay well what if you're wrong I've consider that a lot well what if you're wrong you're really wrong that's like the worst type of wrong because not only it's not like forget anything that happens on Earth

Destinyyou're like eternally [ __ ] right if you're wrong on that it's like what for being because yeah you'll go to some other hell or some other dimension of you know I don't know wouldn't that be like the worst thing the world would be wrong about probably more important than the abortion thing is who the big man in the sky is that's why it's called that's why I reference early it's called

Kristen HawkinsPascal's wager this is why you're stupid to thinking like what if I'm wrong about this bigger thing because you have to assign problems because you don't but you don't but but what you're doing is you just like you're making these judgments up for well it's Consciousness somewhere 20 24 weeks if you're driving

Kristen Hawkinsand it's a dark Road at the end of the night and you're tired and you see a shadow in the middle of the road and you're like that could be a small child or it could just be a shadow coming off the tree yeah and in your world running

Destinyover the shadow is a thing same thing is running over there no in our world

Kristen Hawkinsand you investigate to make sure you're not really a child in your world and you're taking is screw it I'm going to speed up and I'm going to go through the shadow and just hope to God it's a

Lila Roseshadow and it's not a child with a reckless decision what if you're wrong hey Destiny if you or someone can prove me wrong I will happily well no you will learn but like what if you what if you

Kristen Hawkinswere wrong yeah yeah if someone can prove to me that I'm curious because you made me deal with the gruesome details yeah tens of millions of babies being murdered so what if I am wrong if I am wrong about abortion and abortion is nothing but

Kristen Hawkinsremoving a clump of cells that has no meaning whatsoever it's just like removing your appendix which by the way majority of people would disagree with because I love how qualified

Kristen Hawkinsscience right so if I am wrong and it's nothing and every you know vaginal Canal is suddenly magical in terms of nothing and the magic conscious fairy too yeah that's right because you believe in a

Kristen Hawkinslot of magic to just help her yeah no I if I am wrong and this is really magical yeah what I have done in my life's work and advocating against abortion is

Kristen Hawkinssaying that women who may not want to carry just a another human being in their womb for nine months had to be inconvenienced that's what if I am wrong okay that's absolutely but but if you're

Kristen Hawkinswrong you've just said 60 million 60 million people we're killed do you think if an 11 year old is raped should she be forced to carry that childhood term I've moved on to the well let's address

Lila Rosethat because I actually was addressing that earlier yeah I want to hear that yeah yeah um I think it's a horrific situation and we both agree which is why it's such a loaded question because it's just horrific that she's raped and that she's no 11 year old should be pregnant

Lila Rosein the first place okay so start with that and she needs support and care and the rapist needs to be held accountable and she needs to be taken out of the vicinity of whoever's abusing her yep true we all know this I don't know what

Lila Rosewe're talking about it but go ahead but the solution in that what is the next step in that right what is the next step in that very tragic situation yes it's not to take the life of this innocent now conceived third party it's not to end that life that's not going to unrape

Lila Rosethe 11 year old it's not going to untraumatize the 11 year old in fact it might traumatize her even more true and it's forcing the birth she's still gonna have to birth that life that life doesn't magically even out of her she's

Lila Rosegoing to have to if she had an abortion and usually by the time with a young rape Survivor it's usually into the second well into the second trimester that's going to be a very traumatic act that now kills her baby and she's still having a birth process just of a dead

Kristen Hawkinschild sure so then if the 11 year old gets raped is pregnant and scared and then she goes to a doctor looking for an abortion should you charge her with murder do you believe no I don't think so because she's a victim so Lyla just

Kristen Hawkinssaid that in a lot of these cases where we see these very tragic circumstances where there's been rape or incest of young children who become pregnant the pregnancy is not often discovered until well into the second trimester well

Kristen Hawkinsbeyond 20 weeks Beyond conscious do you well beyond Consciousness yeah so do you agree with us that a child who becomes pregnant because of rape or incest with

Kristen Hawkinsanother child who's pregnant with a human being who as you have said has Consciousness as like I don't know 24 weeks do you think abortions justify in that case no but just because I hate the woman so let's say you have the 11 year

Destinyold and the 11 year old goes to seriously let's say that the 11 year old goes to Planned Parenthood my answers you think the 11 year old should be charged with murder no because in that case she's an 11 year old you can still charge adolescence with you don't have

Destinyto try him as an adult you need to answer the question do you agree with us though I have that's an easy question in the world no you shouldn't be a lot of abortion wow what no of course not if it's already a baby why the [ __ ] would you have an abortion just because somebody's younger is going

Lila Roseto be dramatically inconvenience for uh seven eight months or whatever yeah but the difference is my position is coherent and I'm no it's very incoming I actually want to go back to your position if that's okay back to the coma and the Consciousness and and

Destinyexplore more you were saying oh wait wait I just want to clarify yeah because what I was trying to demonstrate is because you were saying that in your world if you're wrong it's the biggest genocide in the history of the [ __ ] Universe it is and then you are saying

Destinyin my world where I'm wrong some women have been minorly inconvenienced for nine months for nine months big whoop but that's not true in your world if you're wrong 11 year old girls are being

Destinyconvicted of murder no no Destiny yes if you're an 11 year old girl seven-year-old girl in America is being convicted of hold on hold on hold on I said in your world in your world where

Destinyit's illegal to have an abortion you get punished for that's what you wanted

Lila RoseI mean theoretically since you like hypotheticals if there's I do like hypotheticals by the way it's not hypothetical that children get raped by adults in the United States it's not hypothetical that the late-term abortions happen on rape survivors all

Lila Rosethe time because society says that's wrong but notice how I can very easily give me only two studies the only two studies that have been done on rape survivors and abortion show that over 80

Lila Rosepercent of women choose life for their child and 90 say that they are glad that they did and over 80 percent of women say that they yeah they're the ones that had abortions you don't care about those numbers so why bring them up what what

Destinyare you talking about if those studies show the exact opposite that would have zero impact whatsoever on your defense you're selectively bringing up pieces of information that might support you but like okay you don't care about it

Lila Roseit should impact your position because you just said you cared so much about this rape Survivor that they should have an abortion and I was just giving you data to show you that rape survivors actually regret their abortions when they have abortions and when they don't

Lila Rosehave abortions they actually are happy that they didn't and you didn't seem to care about that I don't care that's not emotion

DestinyI'm not arguing from any position of emotion I am and Crystal Clear logically it says the entire way if you go out to get an abortion on a third trimester baby because you're a rapist 11 year old then you should be held responsible for a conspiracy to commit murder or whatever the punishment would be I think

Destinywe even disagree there and this is that's fine that you do but I would compare I would consistently uphold the law the same I would have an 11 year old killed her younger sibling or if the lemon would kill someone then there might be other aggravating well sure that might be the case but I'm saying in general that's where I would

Lila Rosestart much the same if anybody kills anybody you'd probably start with bro that was a murder like let's see what's going on and we typically we typically start there yes but I'm saying this criminal trial we look at we look at them

Kristen HawkinsI'm crystal clear on all of them can we go to the coma because we just oh wait hold on I'm sorry do you believe in puberty can we you're not do you know what when does puberty begin when does human life when does puberty begin okay

Destinyguys because she says apparently I don't believe in conscious because I can give you the precise moment of forms I'm curious if you believe in puberty no that's not the reason why Consciousness is a bad argument it's not fundamentally different it's a thing that develops in

Kristen Hawkinsa range of time it's a yeah is no because you're when you develop puberty and when you when you start puberty doesn't change whether or not you have the fundamental I never said anything to do a developmental process that has some

Lila Roseperiod so hold on Destiny you were saying Consciousness is everything to you and if you have you're temporarily unconscious then that's well because we're trying to understand I've already answered this question a million times I'll answer it for the seventh time I

Lila Rosewant to get into the moral intuition thing because okay where it seemed to land for you if I'm understanding you correctly so please correct me if I'm wrong okay I really want to understand this yes where it seems to land with you as I was trying to really pinpoint why Consciousness equals Humanity or

Lila Rosepersonhood for you and especially when Consciousness is unpredictable people have different degrees of it some people haven't developed it yet and they're I believe still people but nevertheless you say that at this 20 to 24 Mark is

Lila Roseconsciousness and that's Humanity or personhood for for the for the human all right so what I want to understand is why tell me more why you mentioned moral intuition earlier explain that more sure when I think of all the ways that I

Destinycould test for life for all the ways that I could destroy life everything to me seems to revolve around a person having a Consciousness but you know that it's a life before Consciousness no you admitted that you admitted that earlier what do you think I mean when I say a

Destinylife you mean a biological human life no we all agreed on that do you think that's what I mean I do in that case clarify I just realized my whole position is wrong because I said a fetus was a biology I'm like excellent

Lila Roseyou won on definitions we know we won okay we didn't even need you to tell us I mean I I think our argument is pretty airtight and it's not airtight that's why the reason why I've already explained it a million times all right the reason why you're trying to play

SPEAKER_06tricky words with the definitions is because it is

DestinyI consider a person to have personhood 20 to 24 weeks that's when Consciousness develops right so my policy cutoff would be at about 20 weeks okay why does that matter is what I'm asking the reason why and I said why it matters is because

Destinywhen I think of one how do we consider when the end of life is the end of life seems to be the cessation of why do you have to measure hold on let them finish it sorry excuse me sorry more interruptions

Destinyokay so the the cessation of a conscious experience seems to be the point at which we say that person is dead and then when I think of like all the ways that I could replace parts of the body if I replace the heart that's probably

Destinysort of person they are every single thing but when you start replacing the brain something unique seems to be happening there it seems like we are our brains the experiences the memories the subjective conscious interpretation of the world that seems to be the thing

Destinythat's really important to defend um so when I think of like when I'm instructive I'm like how could I end a life and what is the end of life none of it revolves around reception to pain

Destinyheartbeat unique DNA all of it seems to revolve around this country experience and then when I think of like let's let's even be more abstract if I try to think of like what does it mean to create a life we're talking about AI now right when we talk about AI when we talk

Destinyabout creating a life we're not talking about creating bodies we're not talking about creating Hearts we're not talking about even creating DNA but we're really talking about is creating or emulating a conscious experience in a machine that seems to be the thing that we're defending when we think about vegans and

Destinywhy vegans defend animals they're not defending animal bodies animal Hearts whatever they're defending the animals conscious Ascension conscious experience the animal that's why I say if life all ends that way and can be ended that way that's probably when life begins okay

Lila Rosethank you I think perhaps I may be able to answer your question in terms of where the disagreement is here because just like a person under anesthetic or a person

Lila Roseasleep or a person in a temporary coma that is going to wake up it would be wrong in all those cases to kill the person right I agree okay excellent so

Lila Rosesimilarly for a child a few weeks before a potential Consciousness first can be measured 20 to 24 weeks in a few weeks it's a matter of time duration that

Lila Rosechild will have consciousness so in in that way they are very similar they are not experiencing Consciousness but in a matter of time they will experience Consciousness so in both

Lila Rosecases it's wrong to kill publicity to develop Consciousness but I want to understand yeah do you do you agree do you agree no okay why why does the development process matter so much to you the

Destinydevelopment process matters because there is a thing that I am valuing the thing that I value is the human conscious experience no it's not you developing it but but I don't think

Destinythat's correct it's because the thing that I'm valuing is or more precisely before it's the capacity the underlying structure to deploy that conscious experience now when you talk about a

Destinyperson undergoing anesthesia okay they have the underlying mechanism they have the capacity to develop a conscious experience but why does the whole body abates it abates for a while because they might be asleep or under medically

Destinyinduced coma whatever and then it comes back but there's a thing even when it's temporarily ceasing there's a thing that we can speak of there was a conscious experience there was a person that knew what it was like to be a thing to be a person that subject of experience

Destinyexisted it might be temporarily baited but all the machineries still learn to deploy the exact same one and then they'll come back and deploy the single experience if I were to create a human Okay up until the moment that first conscious experience happens there is no

Destinyprior experience to speak up that's why when you guys actually know that's why when you guys keep saying things you guys keep saying get to the bottom when you guys can finish things like the fetus will develop the capacity it will

Destinydevelop it but it hasn't developed it yet so there is no such experience to speak of for a sleeping person when you go to sleep tonight you have had a whole subjective experience right now when you wake up that experience will resume but

Lila Rosea baby hasn't even Destiny what if I have amnesia and I don't remember anything I'm like a brand new first moment of Consciousness human being and during my and during my coma during my

Lila Rosecoma I lose all memory I live all lose all sense of my personhood and when I emerge from my coma I am like a brand new baby would it have been okay during that coma to kill me oh I would have to think a lot about

Destinythat question so the issue have you thought about it before no I thought about it a great deal but the question is way more complicated than you seem to think it is okay but that's not an easy question well it's not an easy question the direct the direct the director the

Destinydirect the direct analog is when somebody takes a teleporter in Star Trek are you killing one person creating a new person every single time no I don't agree that that's the direct Direction no I guess when you start talking about

Destinybecause now you're getting away from just conscious experience and now you want to dig into the parts of conscious experience and I'm not going to sit here and lie and tell you that I can tell you precisely because there are a lot of things that make up our countries one of

Destinythose things is memory if you erase a person's memory and if you uh give them whole new personality traits and then you wake them up the next day is that even the same person that well it's important question I don't know

Lila RoseDestiny a newborn or certainly a 26 week old pre-born fetus doesn't have memory does a very nascent if very nascent personality is a necessary but you're

Destinytrying to define consciousness Consciousness this is the subjective experience that we have knowing what it's like but their subjective experience they're not even going to remember it that's because you don't remember it doesn't need to happen okay

Kristen HawkinsI'm still a human being when I'm blackout drunk have a capacity to development develop but they haven't developed it yet but because it's not the thing a person who is brain dead yeah who you're saying

Kristen Hawkinshas no longer has the ability to have Consciousness yeah so that's not the same you have somebody who is brain dead who you're saying does not have the ability to have Consciousness conscious experiences you have your magic button

Kristen Hawkinsright and you've already determined through your magic button that this person can never have Consciousness again that is fundamentally different than the child in the womb who has the capacity still yet to develop Consciousness the child in the room who

Kristen Hawkinshas the capacity to still develop Consciousness is completely different from the person who's lived their life something tragic has happened to them and now no longer ever has that capacity

Destinyobviously fundamentally different what is it like to be a two-celled organism what is it like to be a newborn you don't remember it I don't remember but I can probably guess what it's like but you can guess then guess away what it's

Destinylike to be a 10 week old embryo then I I don't remember either no no I can't that doesn't mean you can kill the tenants guess what it's like to not have a conscious experience guess what it's like to have a dreamless sleep well I mean that's what it's like to be

Destinydead I can I can guess what it's like to be a baby there's probably a lot of New Sensations you're probably having crazy temperature adjustments you're probably seeing a whole bunch of stuff at a really sweet I can't guess what it's like I don't know exactly I can't guess what it's like to be a thing without a

Kristen Hawkinsbrain I can't yeah I have no I don't know what it's like to be like fetus do you think this is in the womb dream um I mean what's the necessary brain parts are there I imagine scientists say

Kristen Hawkinsit can be as early as 16 weeks I don't know if I believe that but I know science is hard to believe I mean the reality is the reality is what we're keeping do you think they actually dream though if they're having REM sleep what

Lila Rosedo you think they're dreaming about I have no idea you wanted to say something Lila you go ahead and then I have something back to is there's all these qualifications on what Consciousness even means and when we take and isolate them and we kind of make an argument or ask Destiny a question about them he

Lila Rosesays well that that that specific aspect of Consciousness doesn't matter Destiny has trouble defining conscious he does trouble defining exactly when it begins and yeah to be clear I didn't have trouble defining it I literally told you exactly what it is different things it's a

Lila Rosethe point here is your definition of what even Consciousness is the aspects of Consciousness when you isolate them and and describe if is this a reason to assign personhood or not it falls apart

Lila Rosebecause it doesn't fall apart at all because some people don't experience when you're a newborn you don't experience your Consciousness you don't remember it later just because you don't remember it doesn't mean you're not conscious unconscious you you're unconscious

SPEAKER_06you're gonna wake up and when you're an embryo pre-consciousness you're going to develop it if someone doesn't develop it you're not waking up because there's no experience to speak up excuse me the child is sleeping in the

Destinywomb so the child is sleeping implies you were awake at one point that's what sleeping means things aren't sleeping from the moment of their Inception they refer

Destinywhy does the DNA matter so much it all matters that's what we're saying no no it doesn't all matter because you wouldn't say a sperm as a baby right no because a sperm is a part not a hole remember the parts in the hole okay but a sperm at some point will when combined

Lila Rosewith an egg will develop into something else and when it develops into a hole a unique single cell embryo that is a human life that why should the uniqueness of the embryo matter more than the units of the sperm of the egg because it's a whole it's a whole individual

Lila Rosean egg is a whole thing human organs hold on so sperm so it's not hold on so semen and eggs are not part of a human organism my skin cells are part of me my

Lila Roseegg cells are part of me they know they're not a they're not in them of themselves an individual human life they don't carry unique genetic code

Lila Rosenumber one cells in my body my my egg cells aren't I'm not going to magically get pregnant without being having my egg cells inseminated obviously sure but why should that be the defining point for how you consider biologists

Destinywhy do you develop why do you value the zygote and not the moment before conception because we all acknowledge that a human life begins at fertilization that's something very special if you call my definition circular by saying a human life begins when we have a greedy human life begins

Kristen HawkinsI'm asking you why you consider because at the moment of conception I'll repeat this slower this time at the moment of consent excuse me two parts apart from the mother of the egg the part from the

Kristen Hawkinsfather sperm okay unite and create a unique whole with you genetic code unique genetic code never because it's

Kristen Hawkinsunrepeatable it's a unique genetics theoretically 20 happens later by the way what twinning happens later by the

Kristen Hawkinsway not necessarily sometimes genetic code comes into an existence that's never existed before why do you value the unique genetic code because that is when you became you all

Destinythe components About You Stephen is killing a two cell organism is that just as immoral as killing a baby what do you mean by what kind of organism if it's a human yeah so is killing a fetus when it's two cells does that have the moral

Lila Roseequivalence to killing a baby yeah it's a human life okay if you're in just like killing a baby has the moral equivalence even though you have less Consciousness than killing an adult let's say that you're let's say that Consciousness and development your age your maturity as a

Lila Rosehuman life doesn't Define your worth or your personhood and back to the zygote a zygote has the capacity for Consciousness it has all the Machinery needed for Consciousness no it doesn't have the

Lila RoseMachinery it has the blueprint that's all it is if you give it time just like the comments just like the coma people but it doesn't have the machine but it's time to wake up from the coma will regain its Consciousness it's not regaining it it doesn't regain its

Kristen HawkinsConsciousness do you acknowledge there is a difference between the person who had the ability to have conscious who now in your magic

Kristen Hawkinsbutton no longer has the ability to have Consciousness versus a child a human a fetus whatever name you want to give it very important go ahead in the womb yeah that has the ability to have Consciousness do you understand the

Kristen Hawkinsdifference between someone who no longer has the capacity to form Consciousness versus someone who has the capacity to form Consciousness but just needs a little bit more time do you see how there's a difference there

Destinyis there a difference between a dead person and a fetus man I don't know that's a real it's a real name I'm not sure I don't know I'd have to think about that one maybe we can do okay think about it let me let me uh I got a couple things here

Brian Atlasum this is for the entire panel so um and I know this is kind of a unique question to ask um do you think this could potentially be a good middle ground a good

Brian Atlascompromise and I know there's some potential existential uh risks involved with the development of something like this what do you all think about an artificial womb now obviously there's

Brian Atlassome considerations of well what what are the impacts on Humanity because we could use these as you know breeding grounds and um but but let's say just within the confines of the abortion

Brian Atlasdiscussion do you think an artificial womb could be a compromise between both sides or would you be ignoring some of the potential uh downfalls of an artificial womb would

Lila Roseyou be in favor of yeah I think it's a technology that's it's very fascinating question um and I think that uh especially if there's like a problem with the with that the woman is experiencing and the baby's experiencing and somehow it could

Lila Rosebe like a medical device to support them you know it sounds like it could be potentially used for good but I think the potential of the use for bad and the fact that it's breaking the natural bond that that baby deserves to have with his or her mother

Lila Roseum this is why surrogacy is so problematic because you're severing that child often from the genetic mother and from the gestational mother and then usually the social mother is sometimes even a third different mother and so the

Kristen Hawkinschild has a right I think to to their mother the child has a right to a mother and so that to be gestated naturally in in their mother that's why we would say that that would be the number one goal is that that child has a relationship

Kristen Hawkinsand is just stated within his or her mother however I I asked this question a lot I'm really glad you brought this up because I asked this question a lot on campuses because often we hear the argument we didn't get to it today because Stephen doesn't care about the

Kristen Hawkinsbodily autonomy arguments but we often hear the bodily autonomy arguments of it it's my body I have the choice to decide whatever happens to my body whether or not I want to give permission to this

Kristen Hawkinsanother human being to grow inside of me that will change my body uh and someone who's been pregnant four times I can testify to that so I actually do think that the artificial womb technology

Kristen Hawkinswould actually it will when it is developed will decimate the bodily autonomy argument that you will not actually be able to use that argument to justify legal abortion any longer when a

Kristen Hawkinswoman simply can choose to take the child out from her womb and implant it into an artificial Room to Grow that way she doesn't have to pay someone to end

Kristen Hawkinsthe life of her child now do I think that's the best situation no because a child deserves to have a relationship with his or her mother and I think there'll be a lot of bad things that come out of children who are born in artificial rooms who don't know who

Kristen Hawkinstheir mothers are um and so there's a lot of other situations and societal questions we'll have about foster care and adoption and things like that but I do think that will actually decimate this whole

Brian Atlasargument of the quote need for legal abortion in our country sure and I guess one question and again ignoring some of the I suppose societal impacts of if we were to introduce a artificial womb

Brian Atlasbecause there's definitely considerations of if people started farming that's right kid chatting for example but within the confines of the abortion argument do you think that

Brian Atlasbecause you a woman could end the pregnancy but the life could persist so do you think that that would be

Kristen Hawkinsif an artificial womb came up came along do you think that would in effect put an end to the whole abortion debate I would think it would but I asked Stephen this earlier about artificial womb and he didn't I mean

Kristen Hawkinswhat's even you're representing the pro-abortion side here um would you think that those who advocate for legal abortion would say I still think they will argue no and from

Kristen Hawkinsthe conversations I've had on campuses which are thousands now I've yet to have someone who agrees with me that the development of it whose pro-choice that the development of an artificial womb

Kristen Hawkinswould eliminate the need for abortion as in their words because they would still say that while that's still inconvenient to a mother to have to I'll know maybe the artificial womb only works at 13

Kristen Hawkinsweeks so she would still have to undergo 12 weeks of possible morning sickness uh and so they would say it doesn't matter if there's artificial wombs she still has agency over her body therefore she

Lila Rosecan just destroy destroy it there's also a kind of a weird ownership genetic ownership argument that emerges even though this is not I think a fully conscious Thing by a lot of pro-choice Advocates but there's this argument oh I

Lila Rosedon't want my kid out there in the world you know I I want basically control over my kids so I think in that case it's sort of a property argument they make this child as my property and even if it can be survived in an artificial room it

Kristen Hawkinswould be it would it's my right and that's what happens with people with IVF with couples or they split up and they've already created human beings who are frozen in IVF clinics there was a very you know famous case of a Hollywood

Kristen Hawkinsactress who this was this was the situation and Nick Lowe the former partner sued because he didn't want you know the mother to destroy these

Kristen Hawkinschildren that they had Frozen and the Court ruled that the embryos were her property these human beings were her property to do with what you know as she saw fit and that's you know a broader

Kristen Hawkinsquestion of why are we treating human beings as if there are properties say well I don't want to get pregnant this isn't the best time for me I wasn't intending to get pregnant this baby is inconvenient to me therefore I have the

Kristen Hawkinsright to kill it we we act as in our country as of human beings are these children our property yet then we also claim that we have a right to be a

Kristen Hawkinsparent and that right allows us to own other human beings which is wrong wait how old are those uh embryos that are frozen a few weeks yeah a few weeks they're not

Destinyvery you're in a burning Hospital oh yes yes please give me yeah there are two children crying on the bed like please carry me out but next to them there's a tray of 10 Frozen embryos you're grabbing the tray of Frozen

Destinyeverything no answer this question are those my frozen embryos um they're random people's children uh I think that random members I actually think that makes a difference because okay well I just told you it doesn't

Destinymatter so no no actually I'm saying it I need to know more information is I gave you all the information it's two random babies they're very Asian and then it's ten Frozen embryos they're all also

Kristen Hawkinsvariation none of them them none of the babies neither the born toddlers or the Frozen embryos are mine in this situation because I think first you have to ask that question because I already answered it well no I would say some

Destinypeople when you I was getting so hard just answer the hypothesis you're like argue with like you're like boxing demons

Lila Rosewould you press the red button yeah and kill 10 000 people over here or would you press the red button until your entire family over here the question but I'm not asking that question but it's the same question Dustin but that's not

Kristen Hawkinsthe one I'm asking you have no relation to any of the children yeah I don't know the question would be I don't know I don't know I don't know okay I don't know what the situation is I don't know it can I reach those children can I reach those things I think the majority

Kristen Hawkinslisten to me can you let me answer the question the majority of people would say they would reached they're going to reach for the toddlers saying that you reached toddlers can I

Kristen Hawkinsanswer the question do not answer the question I'm absolutely can I answer my question oh yeah go ahead so the majority of people would say that they would reach for the human toddlers versus the human embryos because they

Kristen Hawkinsrecognize themselves in those toddlers those toddlers can also feel pain those toddlers are crying out to them versus the embryos who are absolutely silent

Kristen Hawkinsbut that analogy doesn't change the fact that a tragedy is unfolding and human life will be ended it's the same testimony just to remove familiarity because I mentioned your family

Lila Roseto remove familiarity because I know in one hand it's your family and it's ten thousand individuals on the other that you don't know but let's make it a little different let's say it's two toddlers and five elderly people in their nursing home there's two toddlers crying in the lobby there's five elderly

Lila Rosepeople in their beds who do you save grabbing the toddlers everything if you grab the Toddlers and old people right but but if you grab the toddlers that doesn't mean you think it's good that the old people died I was glad when Covenant come on Destiny it doesn't mean that you think old people don't have

Lila Rosevalue it doesn't mean that old people aren't persons it just means that you're going to go towards the ones that you feel most emotionally in that moment connected and you feel you can save similarly with the burning building it doesn't mean that those embryos oh gotcha they're not persons gotcha

Brian Atlasthey're not humans it's just that no just like with the elderly people I'm gonna run and try to save those talkers so let me know okay just after you respond I do have to get through a couple chats go ahead okay I

Destinywould love to hear answers okay two babies are right here okay crying Help me okay they're both one year old okay they can't run out of the building or anything okay and then here is a tray there's a tray of ten perfectly in vitro

Destinyfertilized perfectly preserved specimens you just pop them into a fake uterus or a real one they'll grow into people right what's the morally correct Choice the two crying babies or the ten perfectly preserved embryos there isn't a morally correct choice in the sense

Lila Rosethat in the sense that you are arguing that then if we choose the children the toddlers that somehow means the embryos don't have value well of course we're gonna choose the toddlers they're just like I would choose the toddlers over the five elderly people in their beds

Destinythat doesn't mean the embryos or the elderly people aren't humans okay do you understand that though do you understand I don't know I'm trying to understand I'm asking another question do you understand that I don't I don't understand anything you understand I don't understand that's what I'm asking what don't you understand I don't I

Destinydon't know I don't understand it but don't you understand it and you can tell me destiny

Destinyyou don't understand the difference between what between like why the Toddlers and the old people matter no no no no because I can ask another question perfectly legit uh but hold on let's slow this process down because we go super fast here which is fun but

Lila Rosegoing fast it's a bunch of rambling around engagement well we just keep going no it works a bit but but the reason what I said I would like a response to it Destiny is because in my

Lila Rosein my statement what I was explaining was that the elderly people in the nursing home or the elderly people in the building are humans are persons and me choosing to save the toddlers doesn't mean that those elderly people aren't

Lila Rosehumans aren't persons or don't deserve the right to life similarly me choosing to save the toddlers doesn't mean that me not choosing to save the embryos means that they are not persons not humans and don't have the right to life

Destinydoes that make sense to you or what doesn't make another question okay can you explain what what does it make sense about I don't the age thing okay oh so are you saying that the elderly

Kristen Hawkinspeople in the burning building in your scenario are more worthy of life than the toddlers because they've had more Consciousness and lived experiences well let them say it what do you think oh my God I want to know what you think

Destinyseriously yeah let me tell you tell me the guests that most people do me included yeah you'd probably be weighing like roughly amount of life left about right like if we go on the hyper most extreme example you can choose your one day old baby or somebody one day away

Lila Rosefrom Death you'd probably save the one day old baby because they've got so much more life to learn that doesn't mean hold on one more let's let's fix hold on hold on man you could murder the old person hold on let me fix that so let's just to fix to solve that problem for

Lila Roseyou let's say the two toddlers you knew because you are a psychic or something you know you had this you fortune teller you knew that they would both die in five days yeah would you still say them or would you try to go in and save the

Lila Rosefive elderly people in their beds five elderly people okay well then there you go that that's that you chose to make the decision I probably still even though if I knew in the back of my mind they're gonna die a car accident later and they're crying right there I'd probably still grab emotionally eating morally it's more correct to save

Kristen Hawkinsthe children that are going to die in five days than the older people you could wheel I don't think you can actually morally say whether or not children are going to die in five days hypothetical but I think the bottom line

Destinyis Jesus Christ whoa loud noise the thing is he's got an air mattress upstairs and I think his mom just jumped on the but I think I think what I'm trying to say here is that in that wait can I just ask my one question well we're getting to the box

Lila Roseto ask the questions to try to no because he doesn't actively answer well well let's let's let him say let's let him say sorry order order in the podcast Studio let me do a couple chats here and

Brian Atlasthen we can if you guys want to pick up uh again we can so we have doc venables here Mr density Terry s was not in persistent vegetative state she was

Brian Atlasseverely brain damaged she was still able to interact with others the videos are still available for you to view by definition that interaction excludes PBS so this what is PBS persistent

Destinyvegetative state okay so that's what I tried to prove to to Destiny but he said it didn't matter what the family and the video said yeah that's true and I'll explain why that's wrong scientifically they don't like medical explanation but I'll give the medical explanation it's quick though quick yeah very quick is

Destinypeople with a brain stem can still respond to incredibly basic visual stimuli and they can do so in ways that's why when you watch the video of like Jackson baby he does it I think you talk about Alfie that's it or Alfie or whoever or Terry shrivo it's

Destinythe same thing so the videos you see are that now obviously the families are like oh my God she's alive she's coming to with everything but like the doctors all say this chick is super dead um the brain analysis afterwards showed this brain was super dead she was never waking up there was never any

DestinyImprovement it wasn't just severe mental disability half her [ __ ] brain was gone and she wasn't even probably having a contract experience what you're seeing is the very rudimentary uh expressions of uh things your body can do to very basic stimuli to the brain what does

Kristen Hawkinsthat have to do with abortion this is like we've talked about this answer the question so much today it's but what I've already explained to you when you're talking about someone in persistent vegetative state or somebody who's who is severely

Kristen Hawkinsbrain damaged and we're not sure has the capacity to have Consciousness what does that say well how does that change the fundamental question which is does

Kristen Hawkinsthe human in the womb have value who definitely has the ability to have consciousness who's unlike the person

Destinyit doesn't have the parts yet it doesn't have the ability to happen it has the ability to develop the parts no the part I know what two cell organism where are the parts where are they in the two Soul organisms the code is that's a blueprint

Lila Rosea blueprint is not the thing itself in two cells where are the parts where is the brain in two cells it's a blueprint if you put a blueprint alone in a room okay and you put the wood line up all the wood around the

SPEAKER_06room okay the blueprint doesn't magically correct direct the pieces of wood to build the home and then you give it other things but that's nutrients that's different because the embryos of nutrition yeah it's a self-assembling machine but it

SPEAKER_06still needs but the the self-assembling the blueprint jeans hold on I'm sorry is there a brain is there a brain is there a brain in your DNA is there a heartbeat in a DNA you're no

Kristen Hawkinsit can develop into it if it's a blueprint yeah for you to develop a brain and a heartbeat develop because it's not there yet true I agree so let's continue on with some of the chats here

Brian Atlaswe have Davon Jackson here thank you Jackson yes he's simply saying the potential for Consciousness is not the same thing as having Consciousness non-existence is probably better than

Brian Atlasbeing born to parents who don't want you I'm anti-abortion as contraception though I don't okay Davon Jackson good to see you in the chat man thank you much thank you very much we have Carmen

Brian Atlashere with the 69 69 dollar Super Chat thank you very much yeah that one all right Destiny your arguments are as as they are stupid

Brian Atlashuman life is the most precious gift God can give a man and a woman in my opinion if you are in favor of abortion what did I say I'll read the rest then I'll bet you are in favor of legalized murder

Brian Atlashashtag abortion is murder hashtag abortion is murder absolutely it's a hashtag hashtag by the way okay thank you Carmen for that uh super donation appreciate it we have Carmen here again

Brian AtlasDestiny your arguments are as baseless as they are stupid human life is the most precious gift God you're literally reading the same thing oh it's the same one oh no we don't oh they said they sent it twice they sent it twice okay

Brian Atlaswell Carmen thank you very much appreciate it double time on that one uh we have sweet tooth here Sweet Tooth thing for the 69 donation why is it when Destiny would use science

Brian Atlaswho females attack him for it but you can use it later in the convo and why you get mad when Destiny when you interrupt but you have been doing it the whole time since it started you girls

Brian Atlasare just too missing missing an O there are just too emotional um Sweet Tooth thank you for the do you guys anyone have a recipe I guess okay I just wish Destiny had another person

Kristen Hawkinshere because I do agree it's a bit in Balance to have two pro no this was better because I feel like the people listening probably wanted to have more of a discussion about other arguments you hear about abortion like bodily autonomy

Kristen Hawkinsno there's like dog [ __ ] arguments why would I have like those arguments excuse me I'm still talking like the person who just brought up the question about you know a person being born having a bad life I feel like people who probably tuned into this debate probably wanted

Kristen Hawkinsto talk about other circumstances Beyond uh persistent vegetative state and people in a coma because we just literally have the same argument if you want to see really good arguments in favor of pro-life go watch my YouTube videos like six or seven years ago when

Kristen HawkinsI was pro-life because my Arguments for pro-life were really good well you should watch my house way better than awesome what changed for you Destiny yeah actually we never got to that why did you become pro-abortion um because I did a greater analysis of When Death happens and then I realized that saying that life begins the moment

Destinyconception doesn't make sense unless you say death Begins the moment all of your body disappears it doesn't make sense why do the markers for life and death have to be the same thing um well because generally when we talk about why a thing exists if we're trying to figure out like when a thing starts so I'm just gonna look at when it but we

Destinyknow we but we agreed earlier when human life begins you just assigned person to it at Consciousness yeah so we do just like we know that like human life continues past death but we wouldn't really assign that any type of moral way like things still happen there's some metabolizing and [ __ ] that happens to

Kristen Hawkinsthe body after you die but like if there's actual true death the body is not acting in a coordinated fashion anymore yeah maybe not in a coordinated fashion but there's still stuff going on but we would say that like it's dead because the brain is seen but you but you usually give a little window of time

Lila Roselike there's a woman as an example who you probably yeah but you're not giving that Windows to clarify she was in her coffin and she actually was tapping on the coffin because they declared death too soon we're not giving a window of time because we want to extend it past

Lila Rosewhen death has happened Destiny there's a window of time before Consciousness where the the the child the life the human is alive and will develop Consciousness very soon if it doesn't have the Consciousness I don't care but when you're when you're dead

Lila Roseand you're really dead you're not going to become alive again yeah but if you're dead and you're really dead then you're dead so why so but so back to my original question why is having the definition of death that's medical so important to you for a marker for

Destinypersonhood in the womb even though before Consciousness the human is still alive because there's a lot at stake in the conversation so yeah I think it does well to analyze both sides of like what exactly is happening a lot at stake as

Lila Rosein your you've got on one end you're balancing potential lives that are being lost and on the other end you're threatening the autonomy of a woman to control their body okay so there is so okay so you you do care about bodily autonomy just up until your marker of

DestinyConsciousness so this is about Autumn in the end if if we're just talking about a surgery yeah it is just about autonomy okay okay that's a good good thing but your bodily autonomy doesn't give you the right to kill somebody but if you're not killing a person absolutely you're

Lila Rosegetting the reason that this Consciousness are this Consciousness definition matters so much to you is because of bodily autonomy and because of no I'm saying the reason why the whole abortion argument and figuring out when conscious starts or starts if we care about that the reason why it's

Destinyimportant is because in the realm of abortion that's what's at stake you're weighing um the potential loss of a woman's autonomy for no reason if you're wrong versus the weight of murdering children if you're wrong that's why it's

Kristen Hawkinsimportant I would say if you're even weighing those two things murdering 60 million children would probably be higher up on the moral wrong it depends on the probability of it being right or wrong so to clarify if I am an embryo

Lila Rosewho's going to develop this Consciousness hypothetical you love these okay stay with me here I'm here in this hypothetical there is an embryo who's going to develop Consciousness in just a couple days

Lila Roseso in that case though you would say the bodily autonomy of the woman is more important those two days prior to Consciousness than that child that humans excuse me you don't like the human's right to live true yes why

Destinybecause it doesn't have the conscious experience why does that matter because that's the thing I think that we protect when we're talking about endowing even though that Consciousness is is I guess we're going to go back in the circles fundamentally those fundamental thing

Kristen Hawkinsthe most fundamental thing is you're talking about protecting a thing that I don't believe exists yet what about what if because Medical Technology keeps improving right so we all acknowledge that it used to be 28

Kristen Hawkinsweeks oh my God you're making another viability argument I don't care no but I'm just asking this question so at 19 weeks and if you could just buy them I

Kristen Hawkinsdon't argue for viability excuse me if we have medical technology that allows a child who's 19 weeks and six days to be born and survive yep

Kristen Hawkinsthen you should be able to take it out of 19 weeks six days and use it as target practice so that child who's born in the hospital who NICU is helping us right to the range can be totally 200 yards in the garbage yep magnifying

Destinyscope and everything that is the problem with the Consciousness it's not a problem at all it's wholly consistent just like how it is immoral if a person if a person is going to die if a person is going to die if a person is gonna die if a person is going to die

Destinyin one day is it ethical to kill them no it's not actually because they're conscious

Lila RoseI'm standing over wait what if I'm unconscious because you care so much about I'm talking about lack of Consciousness I got a person right here person's whole

Destinybody okay I'm getting ready to set this guy is there a difference when you're unconscious you're lacking is there a difference between stabbing him five minutes before and five minutes after he dies uh no yes of course because what death is the is the important market then

SPEAKER_06you're asking me is there a difference between killing a child five minutes before those countries were five minutes after I'm gonna give you the same answer Consciousness

Kristen Hawkinsyou don't have to kill a dead person Destiny as we both know you do have to kill the pre-consciousness you don't obviously we're not killing the thing I care about that's the whole point in an abortion you are a non-conscious child in the womb is alive so if you're

Destinykilling a child in the womb five minutes before the child and the question we're talking about isn't whether there's a living thing it's whether that thing is a person why do we keep going back to this so it is because because when you said because you don't think it's dead

Kristen Hawkinsthing that becomes alive with the magical someone who is dead yeah is not alive do you agree I totally agree with that yes so stabbing a person who is

Kristen Hawkinsdead yeah is not the same as stabbing a 19 week six day old fetus in the womb hours away from turning 20 weeks when you're like little mad magic conscious

Destinyfairy invades my uterus and suddenly implants a Consciousness the similarities is that stabbing a dead person isn't harming anyone because there is no one of which to speak stabbing a fetus that hasn't developed a

SPEAKER_06conscious experience and is not harming anybody because there is no one of their time there is nobody to speak up by your logic stabbing an unconscious person has

Lila Roseno moral problem because they are unconscious the child is going to become conscious Destiny but they were never conscious explain why that matters if you become

Kristen Hawkinsunconscious why does preaching is there a person still like to speak of that's not your conscious experience why does pre-consciousness matter somebody it doesn't matter if you've never been conscious it doesn't even want to hear the word Consciousness

SPEAKER_06we got some chances one more thing on the burning building one more thing can I ask my one thing in The Brady building well let's say hold on wait wait [Applause] um

Lila Roseright typically we save the children or the woman first that doesn't mean that the men are less human or less persons than the woman and the children no no there you go so similarly if you happen to save the toddler but not the

Brian Atlasembryo or not the elderly person that doesn't mean that's why the numbers or the embryo or the elderly person is less human or less of a person okay okay so we have the moral quality we have some chats here we got dank naked here thank you for the donation naked the word feed

Brian Atlasthis means Offspring and Latin if you kill a fetus you're killing human offspring what is in that womb is human we can tell the difference between an elephant fetus and a human fetus tank naked thank you very much for that uh yeah Dusty told me earlier he didn't

Brian Atlascare what the word latius meant when I asked him true I don't win debates with the dictionary we have uh pyrotechnus thank you for the donation what about an egg's possibility to undergo

Brian Atlasparthenogenesis and develop into a fetus without sperm fertilization holy [ __ ] I can't even I don't know I can't you don't know what nanogenesis is

Lila Roseunfortunately not [ __ ] dumbass seriously right Jesus yeah I'm uh if you're talking about like taking a skin cell and putting in an inucleated an emptied um egg and putting in the genetic code

Brian Atlasand developing that into an embryo in that case yes it would still be an embryo and still be a life and still has personnel we have doc venables here an argument can be made that Consciousness is present at the genetic level as evidenced by transgenerational

Brian Atlasinheritance of memories and learned tasks as well as epigenetic expression so Consciousness May well be present at the time might as well might as well uh throw that our that I mean that definition of

DestinyConsciousness honestly sounds more convincing to me than that would mean dead people have Consciousness too because all their DNA is because that person is not going to but they still put the DNA so there are those intergenerational inherited memories

Lila Rosebut that doesn't solely Define what makes a human life that's an aspect of a human life according to that question the memory in your genes that is an aspect but that is

DestinyDestiny a dead person is dead so that's the difference I totally agree and a not yet a live person is not yet alive and consciously absolutely but keep bringing up that Consciousness you keep

Kristen Hawkinscompleting a lot and you keep agreeing with us when we call you on it that a human being is alive in the womb right even before Consciousness develops you agree that human being in the womb is alive because you keep saying before

Destinyit's alive you keep you keep saying this yeah okay I'm not answering you so just for the audience to understand the tactics right never in this debate do either of these people think that I think that whatever exists before 20 weeks is dead bringing up that alive

Destinything is trying to win using etymology you're trying to win using a word yeah because when I'm saying not a liger you know what I mean is no I don't know what you mean okay so then you genuinely think when I said that let me hear you say that I have many think that when I

Lila Rosesaid that I think that a fetus is dead no I think that I think that what do you think I'm saying I think that when you accidentally reference the pre-conscious

Lila Rosehuman as a living human I think and then you kind of correct yourself and say it's not that's not what I mean being used call a person a living human but then you also call the embryo pre-consciousness of living human and

Lila Roseuse the same terminology you're accidentally showing the point that your your arbitrary measure of Consciousness is not a a good definition for when a human life begins okay so that that's

Destinywhy we're we get stuck on that point what's actually happening is you either totally don't understand my argument which is true because I repeated like eight times or you understand the absurdity of your argument so the goal is to try to catch on like what do you mean you say human what do you mean when you say child what do you mean what do

Destinyyou mean say like the definition of given that like I Define somebody as having personhood um as being a person at 20 to 24 weeks in the country experience develops if I say that like oh it's not alive yet I'm clearly don't mean that it's dead lump

Destinyof cells that becomes alive what I mean in terms of like having the life of the person you're talking about I might misspeak because we all use these words like differently sometimes but I very clearly syntactically and semantically defined exactly what I mean if I use one word to place one another you should still understand what I'm meaning unless

Destinyyou're so desperate to try to win on like a word technicality because you understand you've lost the logic of anything else you're trying to argue that is that is what is happening our position I think you're the one who has to create

Kristen Hawkinsno that's why I've never tried to call you out of kitchen like oh but you said this word so that means you're wrong I've never done that because words matter and we're talking about this isn't it about words matter it's trying

Kristen Hawkinsto catch me like a technicality should be able to live or die they actually matter and what's your harboring Destiny is a innate bias and

Kristen Hawkinsprivilege against children who are 20 younger than 20 weeks in the womb and so you keep using dehumanizing terms or saying it's not alive and then you're like oh wait I meant it was a lie but I just said it wasn't alive well which one

Kristen Hawkinsis it I think part of it as Lila is referring to it's kind of written on the human heart and as someone who has a son yourself and you've seen ultrasounds we all know what is inside of a mother is a

Kristen Hawkinshuman being and it is alive and it is unique and is precious we don't always like to admit that because that human being could be highly inconvenient to us

Kristen Hawkinsabsolutely children can be inconvenient to some people but what you're harboring is this privilege and bias against a child before a child turns well it's developmental discrimination or age

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