Destiny vs. Lila Rose, Kristan Hawkins Abortion Debate | Whatever Debates #1

Date: 2023-06-22

Duration: 4h 19m

Guests

Brian Atlas

DDestiny (Streamer)>

KKristen Hawkins >

Identified Speakers

SPEAKER_01Kristen Hawkins(guest)

SPEAKER_02Lila Rose(guest)

SPEAKER_03TTS/Donations(audience)

SPEAKER_04Dave Chappelle (clip)(audience)

SPEAKER_05Brian Atlas(host)

SPEAKER_07Destiny(guest)

Key Moments

QuoteDestiny clarifies his position as 'pro-abortion' not 'pro-choice'

“I prefer to characterize my position as pro-abortion not pro-choice”

Key MomentKristen raises artificial womb technology as a future argument that would decimate the bodily autonomy justification for abortion

“the artificial womb technology... will decimate the bodily autonomy argument... a woman simply can choose to take the child out from her womb and implant it into an artificial Room to Grow”

QuoteDestiny mocks the steel-man he was asked to give for the pro-life side

“why the f*** would I give them any legal hey whatsoever... all pro-lifers... the only way they can ever win any argument is with charts or graphs”

Key MomentSteel-man exercise: Lila Rose identifies emotional tragic cases (rape/incest) as the most effective pro-choice argument

“the most effective pro-choice pro-abortion arguments are the appeals to extreme emotion and very tragic cases”

QuoteDestiny says an 11-year-old rape victim should not be charged with murder for seeking abortion, but maintains abortion should still be legal beyond 20 weeks in that context

“if it's already a baby why the f*** would you have an abortion just because somebody's younger is going to be dramatically inconvenienced”

Key MomentBurning hospital trolley problem: Destiny poses embryo vs. crying toddlers scenario

“you're in a burning Hospital... there are two children crying on the bed... next to them there's a tray of 10 Frozen embryos... what's the morally correct choice”

QuoteDestiny concedes it would be unethical to abort a pre-conscious fetus for eugenic/racial reasons, but says this is wrong because of the eugenics, not because of killing the fetus

“practicing Eugenics is unethical... even if that means having an abortion of a five-week-old but it's not wrong because you're killing a five-week-old it's wrong because you're practicing Eugenics”

QuoteDestiny calls the pro-life guests 'evil' (unironically) for advocating banning abortion

“you two are evil okay unironically you guys are like out here like get abortion rights and everything banned from all of human society I think that's kind of evil”

QuoteDestiny discloses he was pro-life when his son was conceived; says he would have had an abortion if he had been pro-choice at the time

“I was super pro-life when my kid's mom was pregnant so we had a conversation and I can't have an abortion if I'm pro-life... I would have an abortion about my pro-choice plan”

Topics Discussed

Introductions and opening positions

Brian introduces the debate format. Destiny states pro-abortion position: consciousness begins ~20-24 weeks, no personhood before that. Lila Rose and Kristen Hawkins state pro-life position: all humans have rights from fertilization.

Personhood and consciousness debate

Central debate: what defines personhood? Destiny argues consciousness is the key marker. Pro-life side argues human = person from conception. Discussion covers corpses, comas, brain death, dependency, and the seed-vs-tree analogy.

Artificial womb as compromise

Brian asks panel about artificial womb technology as a middle ground. Lila Rose expresses concern about severing natural mother-child bond but acknowledges it would undermine the bodily autonomy argument. Destiny would support it if government funded.

Terry Schiavo case

Destiny and pro-life guests debate the Terry Schiavo case as an example of determining personhood based on consciousness. Destiny cites court records and autopsy confirming persistent vegetative state; pro-life side disputes the husband's motivations and the medical conclusions.

Bodily autonomy argument

Discussion of bodily autonomy as a pro-choice argument. Kristen raises artificial womb technology as a potential future resolution. Reference to Judith Jarvis Thomson's violinist argument.

Rape and incest edge cases

Steel-man exercise and edge case debate. Pro-life side's best argument: tragic emotional cases (rape, young victims). Destiny's best argument: visual evidence of abortion procedure. Discussion of 11-year-old rape victim scenario and whether pro-life position would charge her with murder.

Superchat Q&A session

Brian reads superchat questions from audience. Topics include: molar pregnancy, Khmer Rouge analogy, abortion pill failure rate, IUD use, eugenics on non-persons, Nazis and disabled children, and the hunter/deer hypothetical.

Eugenics and racial motivation hypothetical

Destiny argues it is wrong to practice eugenics (societal racial breeding plans) but maintains this is separate from whether killing a pre-conscious fetus is wrong. Pro-life side challenges the logical consistency.

Plan B and contraception as abortifacients

Discussion of Plan B's mechanism (may prevent implantation of fertilized egg). Destiny acknowledges this. Kristen raises copper IUD as emergency contraception recommended by Planned Parenthood. Debate over whether fertilization or implantation is the relevant moral line.

Dave Chappelle abortion clip reaction

Panel reacts to Dave Chappelle stand-up clip where he says women have the right to choose but men should have the right to 'financial abortion'. Discussion of legal paternal surrender and child support obligations.

Closing discussion and farewells

Panel discusses future topics (sexual ethics, cultural drivers of abortion). Brian plugs guest social media. Destiny jokes about his website. Brief social media plugs for Lila Rose (liveaction.org) and Kristen Hawkins (studentsforlife.org). Dating Talk returns Tuesday the 27th.

Transcript

Page 1 of 5

Brian Atlaswelcome to a special debate edition of the whatever podcast I'm your host and moderator Brian Atlas I'm joined by my co-host Kiki she's a bit shy guys a few quick

Brian Atlasannouncements before the show begins this podcast is viewer supported heavy YouTube demonetization so please consider donating through streamlabs instead of super chatting as YouTube takes a 30 cut the streamlabs link is in

Brian Atlasthe description and mods if you can spam it in the chat a couple times if you super chat a hundred YouTube takes 30 if you donate 100 streamlabs only takes three donations and super chats for this

Brian Atlasstream will be displayed in the Stream overlay donations and super chats 49.99 and up 49.99 and up will be read answered the following are via

Brian Atlasstreamlabs only 199 and up triggers instant TTS text-to-speech so if any of you are really wanting to jump into the debate feel free please see the description for full details also we

Brian Atlashave Channel memberships to become a member hit that join button we have six different tiers of support check out all the perks tier one is just five dollars a month you can also gift memberships uh 50 50 gift actually we're not going to

Brian Atlasdo that one for this show um you can now gift memberships to other viewers on iOS without further Ado I am joined today by Destiny famous internet personality live

Brian Atlasstreamer and political commentator who will be arguing the pro-choice side and we have Kristen Hawkins she's the president of students for life of America a non-profit pro-life

Brian Atlasorganization and Lila Rose she's the founder and president of the pro-life organization live action and we were going to have someone else on Destiny's

Brian Atlasside but unfortunately they backed out kind of last minute so Destiny this is going to be a 2V1 I prefer to characterize my position as pro-abortion not pro-choice okay thank

Brian Atlasyou okay verification thank you got it um so I think a good jumping off point um if each of you would like to summarize Beyond just being either

Destinypro-choice or pro-life or in your case uh pro-abortion or anti-abortion uh what is your basic stance on abortion my basic stance is we try to figure out what is a person what makes a person

Destinyperson is granted some positive some negative rights by governments and probably morally and ethically separate from governments we also Grant people some type of right I don't believe that a person is a collection of cells they don't believe that a person is just a

Destinybody with a brain I think that very specifically when we speak about a person we speak about something that has the capacity to deploy a conscious experience because that tends to be the thing that we're usually talking about when we're figuring out if somebody's

Destinyalive or dead or whether or not somebody ought to be protected when we say a person when we say who is suffering we don't say what is suffering we're not talking about a body we're not talking about a heartbeat we're talking about a person having an experience so when I

Destinytry to think of abortion I try to think of who is being harmed I would say that before 20 to 24 weeks that's about when the scientists say that the brain has all the parts necessary to begin communicating to have a conscious

Destinyexperience that about at that point there is some experience there that we can speak of as a who or as a person but prior to that the first trimester that really is not happening yet so if you want to have an abortion there is no who

Destinythat's being harmed there's just a what which is whatever the body is up to that point so generally I'm pro-choice the first abortion up until that conscious experience has been formed because I think that's what's worth protecting because that's when we look to see when somebody's dead so that's what we should

Kristen Hawkinslook to see when somebody's alive so are you anti-abortion after 20 or 24 weeks yeah after 20 to 24 weeks and all abortions anti-all abortions after 20 to 24 weeks with with the obvious exceptions of like ectopic pregnancies

Destinyor life of the mother or something like that being threatened yeah yeah easy yeah of course okay okay and your positions so I'll I mean we share a position but Kristin I'm sure

Lila Rosewe'll have have her wait if she wants to describe it um I think that all humans have human rights by nature of being a human you are a member of the Human family and so any member of the Human family and this

Lila Roseis actually the Preamble of the Declaration on universal human rights by the United Nations so for those that think they have any Authority I don't know if you do Destiny um they say that all members of the Human family deserve

Lila Roseto be protected and treated by the law as persons and so if you're a member of the Human family you have human rights and we know when you become a member of the Human family it's at the moment of fertilization it's very clear a single

Lila Rosecell embryo comes into existence and so I'm I believe human rights are all humans and I also want to build a society of love and Justice and the way to do that is to treat people equally under the law and to protect the most

Lila Rosevulnerable especially children children deserve more protection actually than adults because they are defenseless and so we should actually go out of our way to do what we can to protect children and never ever commit homicide against

Kristen Hawkinsthem so that's that's my pro-life position cool yeah I share a loudly's position I'm I'm against the strong being able to choose whether or not the weak or the vulnerable get to live or

Kristen Hawkinsdie based on someone else's you know perception of them or their convenience factor to another person I think that's a very slippery slope and I actually think the position you represented is a

Kristen Hawkinsvery dangerous one because what you're saying is you have to be not only a member of our species in order to be a person with rights the very basic right to life but you have to be a person plus

Kristen Hawkinsand it's very exclusionatory class of what you're doing you're excluding a whole group of human beings so I guess my question is are there other human beings you would exclude that you you

Destinydon't view Destiny as persons uh not for this debate no I'm just kidding uh here's a question actually let me uh let me respond to your question with a question um you guys say that humans are protected do you agree with that humans

Lila Roseought to be protected and more specifically humans have human rights so protection can mean different things the fundamental human right is the right to not be killed okay it's the right to be protected against the right to life and

Lila Roseso that's why I don't have the right to commit homicide against you Destiny or against you Kristen or against you Brian and certainly not against a pre-born developing child and yeah so but I have a question for you too but I know we all have questions for each other but I'll let you sure yeah because I'm gonna keep

Destinygoing on this I don't believe that you believe in that statement um that humans have a right to life so my next question would be I show you a human who's been dead for 10 days the corpse is still a human we agree right I

Kristen Hawkinsthink to clarify a right to life meaning a right to not be killed not right not to be killed it's fundamentally different abortion and end-of-life Care I've I've I watched one of your debates this morning when I was on the plane coming here and I found it interesting

Kristen Hawkinsbecause you kept using this end of life and argument you fundamentally have a right not to be killed abortion is an active killing it's an active dismember it's actually a violent ending for

Kristen Hawkinsanother human being so morally that act of abortion is is much different than someone who maybe is brain dead or we're not sure their brain activity that's

Kristen Hawkinsbeen in a hospital for three months that's that's a much different position to take because you're not actively killing that person you may say we have to withdraw life support for this reason

Kristen Hawkinsor we you know the doctor May say we have this reason to believe this person is brain dead but you're act you're not actively killing you don't say Well they're gonna die so I'm going to take a gun and put it through the person's head

Kristen Hawkinswe wouldn't we would not say that we would say we might withdraw life support and see if the person can sustain life on his or her own but we're not going to actively dismember them in the process or violently kill them in the process

Kristen Hawkinsbut that's exactly what abortion is it's not just with easily withdrawing life support it's actively going into a womb where there's a developing human being that biologist tells us is unique whole

Destinyliving human being that's never existed before and will never exist again and it's actively killing them okay I don't believe that you believe in that argument um if I were to show you that all abortions could be done by just

Destinyextracting the baby and then leaving it on the table and not actively killing it but just removing it from the mother's life support and seeing what happens would you be okay with that that is actively killing that is killing you because the child is actively killing anybody because children Destiny you

Lila Roseknow this you're a parent children are dependent on their parents a newborn is dependent on his or her parents right and a pre-born child is dependent on his or her mother's challenging words

Lila Rosebut the dependency of a child doesn't give their parents or anyone else the right to kill that child sure I never said as much I was challenging well you do say as much I think because I think

Lila Roseyour position is if that dependent child before the arbitrary line of 20 to 24 weeks is in any way unwanted and convenient just for whatever reason abortion is chosen for that child then you are okay with a parent killing their

Destinychild um it depends on what a video against the child plays no the only thing I'm trying to figure out right now is I'm trying to are you okay with that because I think that was what he said well I don't know what so right I'm just trying to figure out what your position is so awesome we're trying to figure out your position too so I already get my

Kristen Hawkinsposition with crystals but it actually wasn't unclear that wasn't actually clear Destiny because

Destinyso just to be very clear uh to give you an idea of like what I'm trying to establish right now when I have conversations with people that are pro-life there's a lot of dancing between words that I think deserve distinct definitions human I think is

Destinydistinctly different from person I think it's distinctly different from life I think it's distinctly different from child but all of these things when we're talking pro-life 10 just get thrown together like oh we should defend all human people and children are worthy of life and a lot of these statements are almost begging the question obviously

Kristen Hawkinsanything that you would consider a child deserves rights to life right but that's what's wrong human beings are persons what you're arguing is that some human beings don't deserve person sure right

Kristen Hawkinsbut when I'm trying throughout history Destiny has always proved to be a very dangerous position that you're taking yeah I understand that analogies of slavery we're trying to draw here but um what I'm just trying to figure out is because can you respond to that because

DestinyI think let's just take it one step at a time because fundamentally there's a difference between saying a fetus hasn't developed the cognitive Parts you have to recognize the is living versus saying black people and white people okay let's address Consciousness for a minute because my understanding is you're

Destinysaying okay if you want hold on real quick if you want we can leave the Bible if you want I still have no idea what you guys believe but we can leave for mine if you want yeah I mean we can say it slower for you what I heard you say is that like children should have rights

Destinyand shouldn't be yeah even life has the right to not be killed yeah anyway yeah but then you also when you said not be killed you try to draw distinction between like active and passively killing no no you you cannot uh because

Destinyshe said there was a difference between pulling the plug on Grandpa versus actively killing intentional destruction of an innocent human life is sure but I was saying that like unplugging Grandpa would be kind of like unplugging a baby you're disconnecting both from a life

Lila Rosesupport thing no because because a baby belongs a pre-born baby belongs before development he or she's born in his or her mother's womb sure I understand but that means there's probably ways it's natural habitat sure that's the fundamentally everything there's

Destinyprobably ways to passively kill children that we would agree is also wrong just because you're actively versus possibly doing something well I think intention matters too yeah sure it's absolutely yeah I agree but that's important to qualify we can't just say like passively killing somebody is fundamentally

Destinydifferent from actively killing somebody therefore one is described like moral way than the other isn't because there's if you starve a child that's passive but that's also I think there's a few other things you have to get into and what you mean by passive or active sure I agree that's what I'm trying to do but you can ask me a question if you want I'll just okay I do have a question about

Lila RoseConsciousness yeah because my understanding is that's your big line that if there's suddenly Consciousness then they are a person they're not just a human but they're also a person and first to clarify you think it's okay for

Destinysome humans to be the victims of homicide do you think it's okay to commit homicide against a human just not a person I mean I would take issue with homicide because that's a really loaded term but I would say that you can end the life of uh human beings that no longer have the capacity to deploy

Kristen HawkinsConsciousness conscious it's okay to kill me that's why I said capacity to deploy conscious I can wake you up when you're sleeping like the fee this has capacity no if it doesn't have the necessary brain Parts it has no capacity if you give that child

Destinyyou said 20 24 weeks what about children hold on wait wait wait wait wait wait wait wait wait wait wait wait wait wait just what you said there give the child time implies that give me time to wake up do you think that a seed and a

Destinytree are the same thing you're you're making a wrong equivalency I'm not making it wrong enough time enough time will grow into a tree but when you use the word this thing will become this thing the

Lila Roseimplication there is your intuition pumping all the rights that this thing has for saying this will become incorrect incorrect A Child In the Womb a human being has a capacity for Consciousness they might not have developed that so that means they don't

Lila Rosehave the capacity just one like fun at a time please just let everyone sorry they might not have developed the capacity yet similarly if someone is in a coma or unconscious they're not actively they're that

Lila Rosecapacity is not activated yet but if you don't interrupt the life of that child if you don't kill that child that child will absolutely be conscious and just to develop Consciousness in just a few weeks and that's a different between the

Kristen Hawkinsquestion you were asking me earlier when you try to trip me up about I'm not trying to do you guys are going to try to trip me up I'll just keep I'm trying to think verify you have you have a very murky position because you said between

Destiny20 to 24 weeks I believe a child has rights which one is it if you're the one making the laws Bristol clear position my position is the thing we ought to defend is the conscious experience because that's the

Kristen Hawkinsthing we love when does that conscious experience begin about 20 to 24 weeks well that's a big time period because there's been children who've been born at 21 weeks and five days so were those children when they were born prematurely

Kristen Hawkinsso I had an intern a few years ago who was one of the youngest children ever to survive okay um at that age she was 21 weeks and six days old okay so she's

Kristen Hawkinsright in between your 20 to 24 week time range okay so when she and her twin sister were born do you believe that the hospital the NICU did something wrong

Kristen Hawkinsand giving out care and spending hundreds of thousands of dollars in care to sustain her and her sister's life why would I think something wrong was done there well because well you don't think it's a human with Consciousness

Destinynecessarily yeah I don't think goal is a human conscious but that doesn't mean there's anything wrong with supporting it but you're saying it's okay to kill it so you're saying my vagina is magical so something happened first of all as a child born by C-section I'm very

Destinyoffended okay but we're humans too number one hold on hold on wait wait wait wait wait first the vagina magic guy is not in the room right now I didn't give any qualification about birth being the magical time that made somebody a human

Kristen HawkinsI've never said that ever so I have no idea what position you're attacking there um to back up they're attacking your position that's not clear because my position 20 to 24 weeks and I'm asking you a very direct question about

Destinychild born your question was if a child was prematurely born at 16 weeks the mother and the father have every right to try to find support for that child why would you not but but why what what makes that because it's going to grow

Lila Roseinto their kid why would they not care but you're saying it's okay to kill the kid at 16 weeks sure and and I think that's that's the difference between the side of the table and that side of the table well obviously that's because I'm pro-choice

Destinyand you guys are all right abortion yeah have you ever considered that you could be wrong on this issue yeah of course what absolutely hold on only one to be clear only one side of the table here is tied to organizations

Destinythat are getting money invested I understand but you're never changing your position I'm still free to change mine so in terms of asking a bike that's what I'm asking I can consider that I'm wrong you guys will never change your opinion on this I've I've considered it

Kristen HawkinsI've had to consider a lot of terms um but what would it mean if you were wrong on your position on abortion so I don't know if you believe in God or

Kristen Hawkinsheaven or whatever well I haven't avoided any kids yet but I say you get hit by a bus and you go to heaven and God's like Destiny uh you've been completely wrong on abortion your entire

Kristen Hawkinslife you've advocated for abortions between 20 24 weeks no one can really tell because you wouldn't give us a definitive time you're like this real quick

Destinyyou were wrong hold on hold on for you saying that just because I can't nail an exact solid time when it's kind of a big deal not really that big it is a big deal it's a big deal

DestinyI could literally just say like hey before 20 weeks abortion is okay and then draw the cut off right there if you want that's a question for policy makers but but why do policy makers why does

Destinyanyone get to decide whether they're not an innocent person lives or dies because that's what policy makers do no they don't have the right to kill an innocent person if any policy maker you're making decisions and and triage and who gets medical

Destinytreatment first or if you're making decisions about saving people from wait wait wait okay just be clear I know but I don't have a chance to answer any question and you're like loading so many horribly like intuition

DestinyPub question bags in front of me that I don't have time to answer all of the horrible questions in front of me okay I don't know I'm gonna keep talking we're gonna do one at a time I will answer a question but you can't keep stacking like dumb questions in front of me and they're like oh see like you want to

Destinymurder children okay hold on so let me address the very first thing because you keep trying to draw like there's some like thing here that you've caught me on the idea that I can't give you a concrete time between 20 to 24 weeks okay I hate to be the guy that does this in a debate but there's

Destinysomething called a Continuum fallacy or an Iran fallacy the idea that just because I can't point exactly at when something begins that I have to say that all of it is a samurai can't point to that thing existing at all I can't tell you when individual pieces of sand are stacked up and eventually become a pile

Destinyof sand I can't give you the exact numbers of sand that I can see for that to be but there is a difference between an individual piece of sand and a pile it's a false equivalency

Lila Rosebecause the reality is you are saying that these are persons and these aren't based on a specific characteristic that you've you've decided on you came up with it it's not human rights it's

Lila RoseConsciousness right yes nobody here at this table you are out of Consciousness right now why don't you defend defend your position and you're not doing that you're you're kind of weed you know smoke a little bit to be honest why don't you give the same

Kristen Hawkinsrights why don't you give the same rights to human corpses as you do because they're dead what does that mean when you say they're dead so there are they're already dead what does dead mean to you I mean body's no longer working

Destinyin a coordinated fashion anymore their heart isn't pumping blood their brain is not if I put a person if I put a person on a table and I can keep them alive with machines indefinitely but they're never going to wake up is that a human

Lila Roselife there is a difference between withholding extraordinary I'm about to ask that same question after you whatever you're about to say because you're not answering it's important because because you're it's a bit it's a bit of obstication the direction you're

Lila Rosegoing here absolutely there's a difference between withholding extraordinary medical care which would be like life support and withholding ordinary medical care so if I as a

Lila Roseparent or I as a doctor I have a patient in the hospital and let's say they are there being monitored because they're you know they have cancer aggressive cancer but they're not they're maybe going to die but they're not dead yet

Lila Roseand they're not on life support they're just being monitored and if I withheld food from this cancer patient and refused to feed bring food and this cancer patient can eat and refuse to feed that cancer patient patient that would be homicide against that cancer

SPEAKER_00patient I don't have the right you agree with that right yeah well that's a good do you agree that that would be homicide would it be wrong to deprive I'll say it's wrong for sure it was going to die well legally it would be murder to to not whether I'm not going to make a legal argument but yeah I would agree

Lila Rosethat would be wrong yes of course so that's the difference between extraordinary medical measures and ordinary measures okay and for a child in the womb they deserve the ordinary measure of being able to stay in their

Lila Rosenatural habitat their mother's womb until they're old enough to survive outside the room similarly a newborn who you're feeding formula or you're breastfeeding has a right to that food from their mother or caretaker until they're old enough to and even when they're old enough to physically feed

Lila Rosethemselves they still have a right to be given a plate full of food at the dinner table you can actually go to jail for child neglect by failing to feed your child so you know building these um these these analogies that actually don't work with what we're actually

Lila Rosetalking about by saying well removing life support is like abortion they're not the same because children have a right to care and children have a right to food and children have a right to nourishment I still feel just like a

Kristen Hawkinsright you need to clarify your position because you said 20 to 24 weeks which I gave you a very very real life scenario of a child who was born a twin who was

Kristen Hawkinsborn at 21 weeks and six days which in your view could have been aborted because you don't think she would have had the Consciousness that you deem worthy of person

Kristen Hawkinstrue but I mean what biologist do you know that tells you that Consciousness is at 20 24 weeks for this question because I researched this before I was

Kristen Hawkinson the internet I was looking at PubMed at nihs website there aren't biological conclusions in the fact they actually support the pro-life side because you look at the pro-life I always don't make

Kristen Hawkinsan argument about well no well they do make arguments about when children interact so there's a there's a very well known study showing that twins interact in the womb as early as 14.

Destinyamoeba interact with each other pain children can experience pain at 12 and a half germs react to external so are you saying this germs are the same as human lives well I haven't even got okay so let me make a couple things so firstly

Lila Roseyou said I made a false analogy earlier you've compared abortion to cancer patients getting with help no I wasn't comparing abortion to cancer patients okay Europe I was talking about the difference between ordinary measures I'm not talking about

Brian Atlaslet me just say if if we can allow maybe the uh to turn the heat down a little bit on the conversation or at least slow it down a little bit why I do want to give it does seem to be

Destinythat Destiny hasn't had no that's my opportunity okay I'm good I'm ready let me go okay you're making bad analogies by comparing any of this to ordinary or extraordinary Medical Care is a fundamentally separate question

Destinyokay that's a separate question a provisioning resource or whatever you don't agree because you brought it up as a contrary to the question that I said I would originally ask you this question again and I'm going to ask you the question again because nothing that you said addressed it and my question was and I'm going to repeat it a person that

Lila Roseis in a coma that will never wake up should that person be and definitely kept alive on life machines it depends on on what are the what are the what are the characteristics of them in that characteristics the characteristics the person within a

Destinycoma they're never going to wake up but their body how do you know they're never going to wake up because the scientist has a magic machine that he pushes a button and the machine says this person is never going to wake up with a magical scenario that you are designing without

Destinyproviding any contact just to be clear are you telling me that a person being in a coma is not gonna wake up as a magical scenario no I'm telling you that one okay so we agree that people are going to call myself guys guys guys at a time

Destinybecause they refuse to engage with a question it demonstrates the weakness of your position you can keep doing this I'm going to ask the same question again my questions

SPEAKER_06because you know that you don't have a rock solid definition of what type of life should be defended the reason why you want to use it you're making a lie of assumptions order in the podcast studio

Brian Atlasum I I am noticing perhaps on I don't know who which side is doing him doing it most but let's let's try to avoid interrupting let's allow people to speak finish their thought and then if if we can if we can um so Destiny do you want

Destinya round table sir okay to be clear I'm willing to and I have responded to it when you asked me about feeding cancer patients what I said a killing I said yes you said when you withhold food for your travels Etc I'll answer any question you give me I have no problem because my question have

Kristen Hawkinsyou ever considered that you may be wrong on this issue and if you are wrong with this issue what does it mean you are spending your time advocating there's there's literally there's problems on both sides first of all that's not the greatest question to ask

Kristen Hawkinsum you're getting it's a very weird like pascals okay so so just one answer the question I'm answering the question well after you insulted me what do you mean how am I insulted you insulted me wait how did I insult you

Destinymy question he said oh it's not the greatest question I said it's not a good question to ask because theoretically you run into a bunch of weird everything what if I'm wrong what if you're wrong by saying that black people and white people do deserve the same reason let's let Destiny answer yeah so I mean there's like so I'm not gonna always

Destinythink of like well what if I'm wrong I mean I do consider both ends of things but the the consequences for being wrong on both ends are pretty disastrous on one end you're advocating for I guess arguably the genocide of like of little

Destinybabies and on the other end sure and on the other end you're advocating forcing women to give birth to children that they might not want especially in cases of say sexual assault or in cases where they feel like they can't support them

Kristen Hawkinswhat do you think would be worse genocide so we had 60 some million abortions in America since Roe versus Wade 60 million more than a thousand children are killed every day at Planned Parenthood you can't you keep saying

Kristen Hawkinschildren like you're morally loading yourself okay when you saw when you saw the ultrasound of your son in the womb did you say wow look at that feed is sucking its thumb or did you say wow

Destinylook at my boy he smiled at me yeah I also get warm feelings when I look at my car like this isn't proving an argument by saying I'm not saying cars I'm saying that judging the validity or the veracity of your argument by the

Destinyemotional responsibility I also felt a certain type of way when my ex-girlfriend showed me that she was pregnant but that doesn't mean that the urine on the Strip is anything special either right what you your emotions can match just to be clear I still haven't got an answer to my common question which is like fundamentally like an

Kristen Hawkinsimportant the reality what was your question so if you do you consider you're wrong and you said I have considered I'm wrong but the problems it would be genocide and On The Other

Kristen HawkinsExtreme if I were wrong I would have forced women to carry unwanted children or in your word fetuses or things correct what do you think would be worse well in order inside of hundreds of

Kristen Hawkinsmillions of children babies yeah worldwide do you think that would be a little worse the thing is it's inconveniencing a woman for nine months if I were wrong in order to accurately answer the question you have to assess the risk of

Destinybeing wrong on both ends for instance if I were to say what would be worse if I've got to choose between 50 people here or 100 people here to protect from some death event you know what should I choose the 50 people to the 100 people

Destinywell it doesn't make sense as in let's say that there's going to be something that has a chance of coming in and killing both people but I can protect one group of people do I want to protect the 50 or the 100 but that's not I need to finish the analogy hold on if you can't understand any hypothetical we

Destinycan't get anywhere in this conversation no that's what we're discussing hypothetical maps on what I'm saying is I wouldn't just say that I would predict 100 people because 100 is greater than 50. what I would say is what is the probability of 100 people dying versus what is the probability of the 50 people dying and then from there you would start to wait the decision

Destinyso when you ask me so when you ask me what's the probability or what is the likelihood of being wrong or what would be worse being wrong here or being wrong here what I have to think of is what is the probability of being wrong on both ends it's not just a one to one because

DestinyI'm not going to sit here and pretend that everything is a one-to-one like there's an equal chain to being right or wrong here I feel very strongly about my my position about being pro-choice so I'm not waiting this is a 50 chance of being right here and a 50 chance of being right here so the question doesn't make sense I'm saying it's a meaningless

Kristen Hawkinsquestion how do you feel very strongly about being pro-choice when you can't even tell us at what point you think a child has this extra special

Kristen HawkinsConsciousness that deserves right the right to life in the womb

Kristen HawkinsI've given you the range of when people different people develop at different rates it's about 20 years so you want to create so you believe that we should have a sliding scale of what it means to be a human person we already have that

Destinysliding scale we do it at death that's why when we go back to the I'm going to ask again okay to kill someone when they're unconscious I'm gonna no because I said capacity to deploy what do you mean by capacity it's in all of the parts in

Lila Roseyour brain are functioning and working and can deploy a concept experience an embryo who is developing their brain will absolutely have will will implies why are you being age discriminatory against that child

Destinyyou ask me a question if you're gonna ask me I'm just gonna keep talking okay when you ask me will a thing have a right I will agree with you that it will the pieces for a building are not the same thing as a building itself a seed

SPEAKER_06it's not the same thing as a tree an embryo is not the same thing as a person

Destinyif you're having a conversation with me and they're willing they're not willing to engage with a single hypothetical or they claim every hypothetical does a map on unless you can clearly explain why it's because you know that the hypothetical is testing the limits of your belief in a way that definitely I'm just using the ability of what you're

Destinysaying whether or not pro or anti-life exists has nothing to do with science it's not a scientific question it's a question of moral philosophy okay number one so number two going all the way back to this original question that I don't think you're going to answer me because

DestinyI think that this does demonstrate the the well can you see your position

Lila RoseI said you needed to provide more information was a medically induced coma how long was the coma these these questions matter very simple thing what's your question If a person is in a bed person is in a

Destinybed this person is unconscious in a coma the doctor has a machine and he pushes the button the machine says this person will never wake up again but the rest of their body feels like that that exists that's why it's called a hypothetical hypothetical

Lila RoseDestiny because it doesn't exist in the real world they're inventing a false hypothetical that doesn't exist in the real world that is so in human life dying yeah so so and you're using it depend the life of an embryo you can't

Destinyadjust or a human being if you're incapable of dealing with hypothetical then the conversation we can deal with you can't you can't a hypothetical by definition is something that is not happening hypothetical

Kristen HawkinsDestiny so wait wait let me ask you because you love hypotheticals let me ask you I love hypotheticals yeah that's great scientists are working on artificial wombs okay all right I would

Kristen Hawkinsyou agree with me that if they develop this artificial womb that can sustain human life that there would be no legal reason or there should be no legal justification for abortion because if

Kristen Hawkinsyou could remove a child from a woman's womb who says say doesn't want to have a child didn't want to get pregnant and place that child in an artificial womb where the child will safely grow and develop until he or she's ready to be

Kristen Hawkinsborn would you agree with me then in that hypothetical situation that there's no justification for abortion no why not you're not even we've there's 10 unanswered questions

Destinyyou are making a dialogue tree argument against an argument for viability I have never made that argument in my life I've never argued that viability is what determines if a child gets to live or die that's an absurd position I would never have that so if you're saying you

SPEAKER_06were making a Bible wait wait no no no no no wait because you don't even understand the artist you're making no hold on you are making an argument for liability when you're saying if I could show you an artificial womb should we not say I know I love younger women okay could you not say I can tell could you

Destinynot say thank you could you not say that like well if I can show you that I can transplant this fetus from this womb at one week to an artificial womb doesn't that give it the right to life the implication there being the viability of a fetus to survive outside of a natural

Lila RoseI thought we could find Common Ground yeah the Common Ground I would say is no no that is I would say 20 to 24 weeks before your entire position is based on the develop is based on age it's

Lila Rosebasically the development hey just based on development argument is aged it could develop early or later I guess right a development is age age is a marker of development it can be sure so so your whole argument is

Lila Rosethat if the development hasn't happened yet then therefore they're not a human life worthy of protection not a person yeah a person okay so are you saying that toddlers because they're less

Lila Rosedeveloped than an adolescent should have fewer should should not have the same rights as an adolescent yes you agree with the same time hold on

SPEAKER_06to be clear okay now you're probably more but the funny thing is because you said in your opening statement you literally said children ain't even right so I protect they don't have the same rights dude a child can't sign a contract the child can't buy a house a

Lila Rosetwo-year-old can't go to high school do they have the same human rights what no a toddler and they don't have Allison what do you know what do you believe I would argue that I have like the human right to live in a house in the way that

Lila RoseI want to a three-year-old must not have the human right to live so hold on okay do you not agree there are fundamental human rights maybe that's there might be some connections if you want to get very fundamental in terms of like do you have a right to not be killed yes sure hold

Destinyon very important but earlier you stumbled onto something very funny that we all agree on is that based on the level of development you actually do Grant different rights to people that is absolutely so you're saying if you're not developed enough you have the right to be you actually

Lila Roseinstead of being more protected as a child you should be less protected as a child and you have less rights as a child to not be killed to not Child Care is generally defined as a human person so you're begging the questions

Destinyas a child in the magical vagina or more than I believe in the magical zygote that because

Kristen Hawkinsthe 21 week six day intern what about it so when she was born she and her twin sister are born now that's in your 20 24 weeks who knows what Destiny really believes about abortion at that point I told you between 20 to 24 weeks yeah

Kristen Hawkinsyou've got to be kind of specific when you're talking you think the puberty exists don't answer my question Destiny remember I'm gonna ask you this again in the coma all day long I still haven't

SPEAKER_00answered the common question it's a false but what is but what is the answer so the answer is if you want to take care of a baby excuse me excuse me

Kristen Hawkinsat 21 weeks in six days a child is born and a child is surviving yeah okay is it a thing or is it something yeah it must be something do I have the right after the moments that child comes out well

Kristen Hawkinsthat's why I'm trying to find out moments after that child exit to my body via C-section or vaginal birth okay does that child have the right to not be killed because that child is in that 20

Kristen Hawkins24 weeks and we don't know you're a science we don't know what type of Consciousness rights Consciousness this child has so is there anything wrong with saying well you survived we're not

Destinygoing to treat you we're going to actually actively dismember you or inject a poison to your heart if you're approaching my position in good faith if I'm saying that Consciousness develops around 20 to 24 weeks but you would

Destinyprobably drop because that's when scientists say you think that I'm so sorry I was interrupting your question with my answers 21 weeks and six days has Consciousness

Destinyhow do you know what's what's changed you don't know so that's I'm saying no no that's what I was saying I was going to answer but you cut me off you caught my answers you don't want to know you're just gonna run me down a dialogue after the child

Destinycan't kill a child probably probably is it okay probably never okay to kill a child right so my answer was that if the cutoff is seems to be somewhere around 20 to 24 weeks if you're drawing policy or legislation because we can't

Destinydetermine exactly when they're conscious you'd probably be safe and say something like only first trimester abortion would probably be like a a thing or like before like the 20 week Mark would probably be about where you go to that'd

Kristen Hawkinsbe my guess okay but so the child who's born at 21 weeks and six days or the fetus or whatever that would be past the policy cost you probably say at that point Destiny's hypothetical world this

Kristen Hawkinsis Destiny's hypothetical world if you're there at the delivery room are you saying that that child can be killed because we don't know what that child's conscious Destiny's hypothetical world if it's drawn the line at 20 weeks if

Kristen Hawkinsthe child is born at 21 weeks we probably say okay well now that it's so now you've changed your position in this debate you went from 20 to 24 weeks and now you're down to 20 right do you understand the difference between a policy position versus like an

Kristen Hawkinsepistemic statement or like a moral statement yes I'm not I'm not a [ __ ] thank you okay I don't know why I understand there's a difference between the color blue and The Color Purple I'm not really sure I

Destinydon't know I've never talked to a misogynistic man like this before all right I still want to know if you think that you don't want to know anything I said in the very beginning of this at Birth yeah I said in the very beginning

Brian Atlasof this that the cutoff would be 20 to 24 weeks I died down to 20. so we've actually we're winning he's down to 20 now so wait just just a question yeah she just accused you of being misogynistic I

Destinymean do you have a response to that I am I don't think he has one well no I mean come on B I'm being honest you're not you're not an misogynist Destiny I hate women the more time I spend around them the more contemptuous I feel about them well

DestinyI mean you're trolling but I've watched so many just pearly things videos can we go back to the Consciousness stuff with sure can I even apparently my position doesn't even exist right now so let me restate first yeah your position's good

Destinynow we know where you're at least at you're at 20 weeks we've got you moved from 24 to 20 20 weeks right so the question of policy is separate from the factual question of when does a conscious experience happen right what I stated initially was it seems like

Kristen Hawkinsthere's a conscious experience that starts at around 20 to 24 weeks the biologist I Google it I that's why I told you I actually researched this for several hours today on nih's PubMed website and

Kristen HawkinsI actually found a lot of pro-choice scientists who are saying children can feel pain at 12. siblings can interact with each other at 14 weeks so just using that data from

Destinythe nih's own website would tell you that now your 20-week limit on abortions which is wrong and probably should be moved down the first thing that came up from scientific american.com I'm not

Destinysure what research is consciousness requires a sophisticated network of Highly interconnected components nerve cells it's physical substrate the thalamo cortical complex that provides Consciousness with its highly elaborate content begins to be in place between

Destinythe 24th and 28th week of gestation now that's I Googled that as a first episode it's crazy to me that you're at all but however however I will finish um 24th to 28th I've also seen stuff

Destinythat says 20th to 24th week so because I don't want to murder babies to be safe to be safe I I would probably say um I would go with the earlier number because I generally don't want to kill children most of the time so I would say

Destinythat the policy position should probably say that on the 20th week that should probably be the cutoff where we start treating it as a child and then you give it all the same protections and rice that you would a third trimester pregnancy or a born child so that's about what you said no position has changed I haven't moved at all at the

Destinyvery beginning of this debate I said 20 to 24 weeks is about I haven't even clear about that the policy position probably to stop at 20 weeks I have a question for Destiny do you believe in human rights um that's a what do you mean by that do you believe in Universal fundamental

Destinyhuman rights that all human beings like it like object that yes I do believe there are some Universal rights people should have yeah right to life does that include the right to not be killed um generally speaking I would say so yeah generally speaking or yes

Lila Rosethat's a very difficult question if two countries are at war with each other does somebody have a right to kill an enemy come back does somebody have a right to kill an enemy combat in a war yeah so you know what we're asking okay yeah that's why there's something called there can be something called just War

Lila RoseTheory there's different theories for what makes a war just or unjust okay and yes you can be tried for war crimes uh civilian okay I'm just trying to make you understand we have a right to life as a human being understand that when you ask me a question of like does

Lila Roseeverybody have a fundamental right to life depending on what you're asking I'll say it again and let me know if this is clear do you as a human being have a right to not be killed I would say generally

Destinywithout due process generally speaking if we have any sort of construction of government my imagination would be that a fundamental right would be a right to life to not be killed yes I would agree with it in the United States under the U.S Constitution the 14th Amendment says

Lila Rosethat we have a right to equal protection under the law and no state has a right to deprive the life of anyone without due process you've probably heard this before Okay so

Lila Rosedo you think that there is any due process for the human life it right now is that where is the due process for the human life before your consciousness I would say that that person isn't

Lila Roseprotected by the Constitution is not a person yet okay and you're defining personhood based on somebody's 20 to 20 ability of having a conscious experience yes so so let's talk about that for a minute if I'm under anesthetic and I'm

Lila Roseunconscious and someone comes up to me and says can I kill you and I'm unconscious I can't say don't kill me can they kill me no tell me why because she have the capacity to deploy a

Lila RoseConsciousness just like the fetus just no the fetus can't Destiny if you don't kill that fetus the fetus with a matter of time because I'm under anesthetic in a matter of time I will come out from under anesthetic and I will have my

Lila Roseconsciousness for the fetus if you don't kill that fetus under a matter of time the natural human development you were once a tiny child in the womb maybe 18 weeks before the Consciousness that you say something

Lila Roseif no one killed you then you would have your Consciousness just like I coming out of an aesthetic anesthetic would have my Consciousness why so so your position

Lila Rosesounds like age discrimination because you're saying that because the child is not doesn't have their Consciousness yet just like under anesthetic I don't have my Consciousness regain you think there are any two-year-old human do you think there are any 200 and you're saying that

Destinythere is okay to kill them do you think there are any 200 year old humans that deserve like to be protected by all the human rights that we have fundamentally well if I think if someone lived to be 200 then yeah

Lila Roseactually amazing okay and if there was a one week old having a conscious experience I would say it as well the 200 year old is asleep and unconscious I still don't have the right to kill them Destiny because if they're asleep you can wake up your line of Consciousness

Destinythe fundamental flaw of your entire position because you keep saying I understand if they wake up now okay the way that this conversation works is because you two have organizations because you two are bought in you can never even remotely because I haven't

Destinygotten the ability it's not misogynist okay um now I'm in my uh demon racially I'm like hitting you because you're white okay but you can't just throw that Zinger in there like oh you're only

Destinyperson because the style of argumentation that you're both engaging in is like 50 million questions nothing is scientific about this conversation it's 50 million questions about me being able to respond to or answer anything

Brian Atlasabout the arguments I got a question got a question here yeah go ahead uh uh

Kristen Hawkinsfor everybody here at the table wow it's very it's very heated okay um when does Life begin at the moment of conception moment of fertilization an egg unite when unique whole living human being

Kristen Hawkinsthat never existed before and will never exist again comes into existence with unique genetic code excuse me 96 of biologists in the

Kristen HawkinsUniversity of Chicago study can eat majority of whom were pro-choice and liberal confirm that fact that there is no other point at your development can

Kristen Hawkinsyou say you became you then at the moment of conception when your DNA your genetic code came into existence that is a biological fact and I'm sorry it's

Lila Roseinconvenient to raise that but that is that is the fact and to clarify I would agree with you Destiny if human life began at Consciousness I would say you know anything before that human life

Lila Rosebeginning at Consciousness I would say it doesn't it's not a human life yet but what's inconvenient for you is that human life doesn't begin a Consciousness human life and at the end of the day I'm not gonna have a kid so it's not like you can beat

Destinyit for me at all like wait so uh Destiny I didn't give birth to him you're saying it's inconvenient to me where it's like I'm not it's not tight you're representing the pro-abortion position here surely you don't believe

Kristen Hawkinsit sure but I'm just saying that you keep saying like this none of these facts are inconvenient well they are because they they dispute your like made up definition of when personhood begins

Kristen Hawkinsthere is no the definition of one person who begins is literally the subject of our debate there's not a scientific answer to that question at the very beginning is when you human rights are not science excuse me if you

Kristen Hawkinsseparate when human beings if you separate when human beings come into existence okay and personhood and you make it two different lines it's always bad bad things have always

Kristen Hawkinshappened throughout human history when we tried to separate human beings from personhood it's always a slippery slope and bad things always happen is what we're saying the reason when we're

Lila Rosecoming the reason the reason human the reason science is very important debate is because and and the question of Human Rights is because human rights are about the humans that have rights that are

Lila RoseUniversal so all of all humans if you're a member of the Human family you have these rights and I think earlier you did you know kind of keep saying that but we don't no no no no no you have more qualifiers you did you did kind of it's all right you did kind of agree I think

Destinyyou agreed that we have the right as humans to not be killed right no um there needs to be more qualifications it's not just humans because we agree that corpses for instance don't give protection so it has to be more

Lila Rosequalified Destiny I think it's Destiny I think your position is Not Human Rights it's uh conscious rights that you have to be a conscious you have to have Consciousness and not just have

Lila RoseConsciousness you can have it taken away from you and it come back to it but that is okay but if the child hasn't developed yet then that's okay that's your your line do you want to answer the question just

Kristen Hawkinswhen does Life Begin when does human life begin destination whatever your sense of the question is personhood thing that I'm looking at no let's talk about science for a second when does human life begin I answer the question you answer it

Destinyif you're talking about like when does a unique genetic code happen it's right at the union it's right at the moment of conception when two parts become a whole correct excellent finally we agree on something that well that's a human life comes into

Destinyexistence yeah that's called a scientific fact that's what we've been saying I understand let me catch a lot of conversations let me catch up the conversation we're not having a scientific discussion on when genomes are formed we're having a moral philosophy discussion on when does

Lila Rosesomething get the protections of being a person correct and our position is simple and what Kristin was saying earlier is that throughout human history there have been many times when groups of human excuse me groups of humans were considered non-persons right and you

Lila Roseknow what this happens you're certainly familiar with this Destiny and I know Chris I'm going to go back to this for example and under the Rwandan Genocide or with slavery in our country um the Holocaust there are groups of

Destinypeople who were seen as who was Roe v Wade kcv Planned Parenthood and then I think it was Apartheid there were actually I think rovers's way came from that there were Communications because they were inspired by the Nazis right just to clarify they're human

Lila Rosebeings that were seen as non-persons and that opened the door to huge injustices okay and similarly today we see humans in the womb at this arbitrary line and you're one among many I mean other people say well at you know right before

Lila Rosebirth is when they become human or viability is when they become human or heartbeat is when they become human there's all of there's a lot of different variations because they're all really bad arguments I agree and I think Consciousness is a terrible argument too

Lila Rosebecause you can't because you can't that's your opinion the development of a human that's fine representing your opinion's wrong and back to the toddler back to the toddler and the Adolescent because you kind of you pulled a you had a clever move there Destiny you were

Lila Rosesaying well you know an adolescent has rights like signing a contract that a toddler doesn't have so therefore I think your next conclusion of that was if you're a pre-born in the world conclusion you know

Lila Rosebut it was an interesting position because what I was trying to get to in that conversation before I got a little bit derailed there is do you think that your age or your development as a human

Lila Rosemeans you are more or less entitled to equal protection under law for basic human rights including the right to not be killed um if if that development when you say including the rights to not be killed that fundamental right to life let's

Destinyjust talk about only that right only that question pumping so yeah just I don't know about intuition probably let's just talk I escalate it and just say just the right to not be killed and right to not be the victim of homicide I don't know I'm not sure it depends on what kind of deaths we're talking about so here's a question for instance a lot

Destinyof women have miscarriages like without even knowing in the first room do you think that those embryos should be rushed to the hospital well if the emerald is dead no I mean okay but do you think that like any woman do you think we should start

Destinylocking every single woman that has sex into some sort of facility to check for early miscarriages like that because if it is true wouldn't that be the equivalent of a woman leaving a child starving to death on their floor no absolutely no how dare you hold on can

Destinyyou answer questions because what you're talking about right now is essentially the real genocide of children is all the children being miscarried right now in the first few weeks Carriage to not feeding my child

Lila Rosewhy it should be the same thing no it's not why is it not well you obviously because oh my gosh it's not because every woman in America

Destinyif you want to go all the way to the moment of conception then that means that a woman who just whatever kind of miscarries in the first second or third week and doesn't realize it that is the same as like oops somebody dropped their child down the stairs and they died no

Kristen Hawkinsthat is absolutely not the same do you understand science and what happens in a miscarriage and an unattended miscarriage unattended that's why I'm saying we should lock them up after they have sex

Lila RoseI don't think your argument doesn't make anything my argument makes perfect sense

Destinyif you believe that the moment of no you can't right now if you believe that at the moment of conception you've created a unique human being then that means that right now you should be in tears because at every moment women that are engaged in fact yes you could probably

Destinymake the argument that sex without the intention of immediately going to a hospital is probably immoral because you're engaging in some activity it might result in the death of a child three or four weeks because you don't

SPEAKER_06know if you're gonna have enough time [Applause] immediately after just to make sure that whatever fetus might be there is absolutely let me answer your question

Kristen Hawkinsthat now that is misogyny because what you're saying is human beings productive citizens of our society that's exactly that is massage so

Lila RoseDestiny I I don't know exactly hold on let's look at okay I don't know I think your question might betray perhaps a little ignorant about how pregnancy works okay and for me because because if a woman gets pregnant rushing her to the hospital is not going to magically

Lila Roseprevent a miscarriage that she may or may not have miscarriage miscarriage has happened for a lot of different reasons and I would argue especially for imprisonment as an example imprisoning a woman who's pregnant which I'm opposed to by the way um that additional stress could add to the miscarriage so if you grabbed a

Destinywoman after she had sex it might be pregnant and dragged her off to a hospital that might actually induce stress in her and yeah but there's also potentially things there's behaviors that would increase the risk of miscarriage especially who doesn't know she's pregnant right maybe a woman drinks say that one more time there

SPEAKER_06might be behaviors that a woman could engage in if she is however that means that you could have sex with a condom and with birth control and you might actually get pregnant so if a woman is having sex and she starts drinking or whatever murdering a child

Lila Roseright then and there let me answer that yeah that's why we have we have um recommendations you know from the FDA that women who are pregnant should not drink alcohol no no you don't even know

Kristen Hawkinsif you're pregnant that's the difference between direct and indirect

Kristen Hawkinsshe just conceived and she goes and celebrates her 20th birthday at a bar 21st birthday at a bar and she drinks a whole bunch and she miscarriage it Miss miscarriage no one would say you

Kristen Hawkinsmurdered your child you murdered your child yes you did that's not that that was not the intent it doesn't matter I think the kid cares abortion what is abortion abortion is

Kristen Hawkinsthe direct intentional killing of an industry in the perspective of the fetus do you think it carries if it was an accident or intentional that it was action we're arguing about the morality of abortion which you've informed me like five times because you don't want to talk about something sure but what

Lila RoseI'm saying is that if you think that there's a moment I will say I'll give you this Destiny if you're if you're having sex and this is actually goes to a a related conversation to the abortion

Lila Rosecompany that's very important I think I have a question actually and I think you're she kind of gets into the sexual ethics World which I think is important so we could go there because if you're happy

Lila Roseam I allowed to ask any of my questions because I don't got an answer well I I would I reiterate them sure I had like three really basis little hypothetical yeah really quick sure about the mass genocide of well no it was more about you know if you're

Lila Rosehaving sex should you be heavily drinking afterwards I think was where you're going with that and I would say no you shouldn't actually I don't think I don't think and this is part of our society's problem today is post-sexual

Lila RoseRevolution is we have separated sex from procreation and from relationship okay and because of that we have the abortion rate of 2500 children killed every day by abortion because of that we have mass

Lila Roseunhappiness we have breakdown among male female relationships people actually are having less sex in many ways than before pornography uses spiking and it's all because we've forgotten what sex is designed for which is intimacy and new

Destinylife so I would be against a culture and I am against acts where people are just being promiscuous having sex not literally none of that has anything to do with what I said because everything that I described happened could literally happen within a marriage where a woman gets pregnant doesn't realize it

Lila Rosehas some hours actually let me answer that too because I'm I'm I'm saying that nothing nothing but I gave that anything to do with this okay well then then I'm thank you for the clarification um you know I can relate to your

Lila Rosequestion I'm married we hope to have another baby and yes it when I know if it's I might be fertile I might be getting pregnant soon yeah I'm not going to be he's making gin and tonics because I might be getting pregnant and I want to

Lila Rosehave my body be as hospitable as possible for that baby and I think that would be the prudent thing to do and that's another reason if as a woman and you uh you're having something we were talking about like moral rights or wrongs well I I think it would be

Lila Rosemorally irresponsible yes to be getting drunk when you may be getting pregnant yes on the same level of like murdering a child creating a new human being sexual sex and so that's what Lila is

Kristen Hawkinssaying is that if you're engaging heterosexual sex you have to be aware that one of the very biological outcomes of that behavior of that choice you've made is creating unique whole living human life so therefore you have

Kristen Hawkinsconsented to the fact that you need co-living life may come into an existence by engaging in that act knowingly gotcha okay Destiny did you have more I

Destinysaid a very slow questions do we agree that is puberty a real thing absolutely puberty is a real thing okay when does it happen it's a range oh hold on hold on I know I know where he's going I know he's gonna

SPEAKER_00can I just make a comment here but that's very mentally different between hold on there's an absolutely sure sure like I love you but you don't let me answer any questions yeah all

Kristen Hawkinsright Jesus you're being misogynistic I mean I think it's been perfect I think they're both misogynistic okay no no I understand where the question was you brought this up earlier about puberty yes absolutely puberty is a real

Kristen Hawkinsthing I have two pre-teens right now okay I'm reminded every day that puberty is a real thing and absolutely on sets of different ages based on the environment based on a child's experiences or stress that the child may

Kristen Hawkinsbe going through or the genetic conditions that a child may have but that's not that's not an equivalent for saying well we all know when human life begins when we know it actually begins and we've already proven is a scientific

Destinyfact begins at the moment of conception therefore we can kill a human being okay so and I'm trying to illustrate to you is that can you believe it yes

Lila Roseso I would just say uh yes there is a sliding time frame from when someone might go undergo puberty but if you are basing a decision about whether or not

Lila Roseyou can kill an innocent prepubescent or pubescent child then I would say your standard of puberty shouldn't matter similarly to your standard your unjust standard of Consciousness to demand that

Lila Rosea baby that's not fully developed yet has to be developed in order to be protected and I think that's age discrimination gotcha okay so all I'm trying to point out is do you agree you are age discriminatory by the way do you agree do you think are you age

Lila Rosediscriminatory so your age discriminatory about when human beings should happen a lot of different things so you believe that it that you are age discriminatory about developmentally discriminated typically developmental

Lila Rosediscrimination is for the protection of the less developed person the protection of a mother that doesn't want to have a pregnancy there's another person in the equation here manipulation and the form of manipulation or harm of the mother

Kristen Hawkinswho's being forced to be a breeding Factory for a child I can morally load things just the other way if you want if you want to play that game I could do that your argument actually isn't Consciousness I think you're you are making a bodily autonomy argument yeah no I'm not that's the Democratic we are

Kristen Hawkinsbecause you said the mother has a pregnancy no the mother no I'm just trying to

Destinybecause it was dumb because viability is no impact whatsoever on my feelings on whether or not a fetus is correct in that you are sort of talking on both sides of your mouth a little bit

Lila Roseabsolutely not right now I'm struggling to talk on one side of my mouth on the one hand Destiny you're saying that it shouldn't matter whether or not the mother wants a baby or doesn't want the baby if the baby is conscious and on the

Lila Roseother hand you're saying actually the mother's desire to have or not have that baby being forced to birth that baby actually does matter so that's a little bit of a contradiction yeah it's not a contradiction at all whether or not somebody wants to have a child or not is

Destinynot the same as when does the child get moral protections those are too funny questions to give birth I'm not using that language no well because you're using

Lila Rosethe language of like killing a child no you're ending the life of an innocent

Lila Roseright now the point of our debate it's kind of like going to a self-defense trial and having the people that you killed being called victims well hold on right hold on hold on hold on you're the one who's advocating for the positive right to kill a child on the womb you're

Lila Roseyou're the one advocating for that okay we're advocating to say you can't kill a child so you know that's I'm just trying to explain why calling it a child is why does that bother you bothers me because the subject of the debate is whether or

Lila Rosenot it is a child so if you call it a child you're already presupposing the most difficult part of the conversation but I think but that's a contradiction to Destiny

Lila Rosebecause you just said you because you said that you become a person at Consciousness this arbitrary line that you've drawn that's not even yeah that's not even clear yeah and you know it's very clear but you're you never you

Lila Rosenever has a name you never talked about when childhood begins so let's actually talk about that childhood begin at a different time than one person childhood is whatever you want some childhood begins when you see your first Sesame Street I don't know what does childhood mean okay what is when does a child