Michael Knowles vs. 3 Feminists | Whatever Debates #4

Date: 2024-02-02

Duration: 3h 05m

Guests

Brian Atlas

MMichael Knowles >

JJasmine Jafar >

Identified Speakers

SPEAKER_00TTS/Donations(audience)

SPEAKER_01Pixie(guest)

SPEAKER_02Jasmine Jafar(guest)

SPEAKER_03Farha Khi(guest)

SPEAKER_04Brian Atlas(host)

SPEAKER_05Michael Knowles(guest)

SPEAKER_06Michael Knowles(guest)

Key Moments

QuoteKnowles defines feminism using Gloria Steinem's quote ('a woman needs a man like a fish needs a bicycle') and argues feminism erases female virtue by demanding women act like men.

“feminism is the idea that men and women are not complimentary... it's a false view of human nature and I think it's harmful to everybody and especially harmful to women”

QuoteKnowles cites Simone de Beauvoir vs. Betty Friedan (1975 debate): de Beauvoir argued women cannot be given a choice or most will stay home, so women 'must be forced to be free.'

“there can't be a choice and the reason there can't be a choice is that if given the choice most women would stay at home... women must be forced to be free”

Key MomentKnowles applies Leon Kass's 'wisdom of repugnance' to Pixie's abortion position: if you find it viscerally repulsive, that moral repugnance is itself a rational signal worth reasoning from.

“what you've just articulated is something called the wisdom of repugnance... we don't write a moral treatise on every single thing... most prejudices are right”

QuotePixie (Farha/Pixie) states she is personally pro-life but macro pro-choice, comparing it to being vegetarian her whole life but not forcing it on others.

“on a personal level I'm pro-life I wouldn't get an abortion but on a macro level I'm pro-choice”

ControversyKnowles discovers Pixie has an OnlyFans account despite objecting to men watching pornography. 'I've been strung along so well and now you're going to pull the rug.'

“you have an only fans too yeah she doesn't she are you kidding me I've been oh man I thought you strung me along so well and now you're going to pull the rug”

QuotePixie reveals she has been 'pink-pilled' by experiences with conservative Christian men who claimed to wait until marriage but turned out to be porn addicts.

“I was a virgin all through college I'm still a virgin I do all these things I date these Christian conservatives they talk about waiting till marriage they talk about going to church every Sunday porn addicts all of them”

ControversyKnowles confronts Pixie on the hypocrisy of objecting to men watching porn while producing OnlyFans content: 'You are part of the problem... you are encouraging it and profiting from it.'

“you're the one who's trying to entice these men to look at this stuff and then you're trying to put all of the blame on them... you are part of the problem”

QuoteFarha declines to publicly define what a woman is, saying she needs more research first. Knowles responds: 'Are you joking? That's really your answer?'

“I'd like to do more research on this topic before publicizing an opinion”

ControversyFarha accidentally says 'real women' when referring to biological women during transgender sports debate. Knowles immediately highlights this as an implicit acknowledgment of his position.

“I don't think trans women are men either... I would say they're a part of the umbrella of women... well biological women... real women... well you just accidentally said what we all [think]”

QuotePixie's closing question to Knowles: asks him to clarify whether he stands by his earlier statement that being a 'munch' is morally depraved.

“before the show you said it's morally depraved to be a munch, do you stand by that statement? Oh yeah we were discussing the previous episode I learned a lot of jargon”

Topics Discussed

Introduction and definition of feminism

Brian introduces Michael Knowles (conservative) vs. three feminist debaters: Pixie, Farha Khi, Jasmine Jafar. Opening debate on how to define feminism. Knowles argues feminism erases female virtue by demanding women act like men. Feminists argue for equality of opportunity and choice. Discussion of Gloria Steinem, Simone de Beauvoir vs. Betty Friedan on female choice.

Patriarchy — definition and existence in the West

Brian asks whether they live in a patriarchy. Feminists define it as system where men hold most social/political/economic power. Knowles redefines it as the proper structure of marriage (husband as head as Christ is head of church), says current 'perverted patriarchy' is the problem. Discussion of whether the West is still a patriarchy vs. broader global perspective.

Female happiness, marriage rates, and feminism's effects

Debate on University of Pennsylvania/Yale 2008 'Paradox of Declining Female Happiness' study. Knowles: happiness declining since 1973 despite feminist progress. Feminists: can't isolate cause; better mental health measurement; pre-1970s housewife prescription drug use also high. Knowles: rising antidepressant use (1-in-5 middle-aged women). Discussion of children making people less happy, marriage rate decline (-60%), birth rate decline (-50%).

Religion, Christianity, and founding of America

Debate on whether America was founded as a Christian nation. Knowles argues separation of church and state was not an original founding principle; Bill of Rights didn't apply to states at ratification. Feminists argue First Amendment establishes separation. Discussion of Thomas Jefferson's Bible, Treaty of Tripoli, established state churches. Knowles argues Christianity spread peacefully vs. Islam.

Women's oppression: who is more oppressed?

Brian asks whether women or men are more oppressed. Knowles argues true oppression comes from sin and vice, not patriarchy. Farha prefers 'marginalized' to 'oppressed.' Discussion of divorce rates, marriage law incentives, domestic conflict vs. divorce outcomes for women and children. Debate on whether traditional marriage or liberal divorce law is better for outcomes.

Abortion rights and pro-choice vs. pro-life arguments

Brian introduces abortion as a feminist issue. All three feminists are personally conflicted: Farha: personally pro-life, macro pro-choice. Jasmine: generally pro-choice, doubts late-term morality. Pixie: finds abortion viscerally repulsive but won't prescribe for others (compares to vegetarianism). Knowles: applies 'wisdom of repugnance' (Leon Kass) — moral repugnance is a rational signal. Debate on contraception and abortion rate correlation since Roe v. Wade. Pre-Roe abortion statistics debated (back-alley abortions, Bernard Nathanson statistics).

Male/female differences, academia, and gender roles

Debate on why women outgraduate men in academia. Knowles says academia is declining in quality. Pixie argues God equipped women with rational faculties for more than domestic roles. Discussion of 'greater male variability hypothesis.' Knowles argues for complementarity not identity. Debate on women in STEM, DEI policies and their downstream credentialing effects. Discussion of Phyllis Schlafly as anti-feminist who was also publicly active.

Wage gap and earnings gap debate

Brian raises the 77-cents-to-the-dollar gender wage gap statistic. Jasmine argues gender bias persists even in controlled studies. Knowles argues DEI creates downstream skepticism about qualifications. Cites Clarence Thomas's difficulty getting hired despite Yale Law degree (assumed affirmative action). Brian: Google study found they were underpaying men and overpaying women. Discussion of women's soccer equal pay lawsuit and WNBA vs. NBA pay disparity. Knowles: earnings gap is partly explained by male mating pressure to earn more.

OnlyFans, pornography, and Pixie's hypocrisy debate

Pixie reveals she has a non-nude OnlyFans (started ~1 year before episode). Knowles confronts her: she objects to men watching porn while producing OnlyFans content. Pixie distinguishes: male consumption affects pair bonding neurochemistry; female creation does not. Knowles: she is enticing men to the very behavior she objects to. Pixie: porn objection extends to Instagram models, Hooters, Playboy posters — not just pornography. Discussion of Christian conservative men she dated who were secretly porn addicts. Cohabitation statistics: Pixie argues against pre-marital cohabitation on statistical grounds.

Definition of 'woman' and transgender debate

Brian asks 'what is a woman?' (Matt Walsh reference). Pixie: a person who acts/is perceived as society's conception of a woman. Farha: declines to answer publicly pending more research. Knowles: mocks Farha's non-answer; argues you can't separate soul/identity from body (anti-gnostic). Farha: accidentally says 'real women' when meaning biological women, Knowles highlights this. Debate on transgender athletes in women's sports: whether hormonal adjustment creates fairness. Knowles: fairness in sports requires philosophical judgment, not just scientific comparison of averages.

Closing statements

Farha: principles of fairness are philosophical but informed by science/data. Jasmine: wishes for more discussion on nature vs. nurture; argues laws excluding women historically are evidence of sociological not biological causes for gender gaps. Pixie: asks Knowles to clarify his earlier claim that being a 'munch' is morally depraved. Knowles: closes with Mayflower Cigars plug and argument that pre-feminist family structure was better. Brian wraps; announces Dating Talk #133 in 45 minutes with Michael Knowles continuing.

Transcript

Page 3 of 4

Jasmine Jafarof sexual harassment in the workplace is basically zero can you give me an example and the reason why I'm asking for an example specifically is because I actually as a feminist think one of the failures of the me too movement was um

Jasmine Jafarnot being able to legislate a lot of the Grievances put into place so even if like you're a company is not supposed to like sexually harass um or you're not supposed to sexually harass you're always subordinate whatever whatever um most of these cases will ever be

Michael Knowlescriminal they'll just be at most civil maybe if they're even prosecuted sure but what are we talking about we're talking about an errant comment or we're talking about you know I like your shirt today Sally or something or are we talking about you know a rape or

Jasmine Jafarsomething yeah I I guess what I'm asking you is like what specific um laws have been put to place that heavily favor women against men well there already laws there are laws against sexual assault right and there are law and but

Michael Knowlesbut the um HR practices that have been put into place throughout Corporate America uh to totally favor women if if a woman comes in and says uh you know let's say a man and a woman in an office

Michael Knowleshad a consensual Affair the minute that woman reports that that guy is gone a guy is gone at every major company in America let's say that a a man just kind of seems a little creepy or makes a woman feel uncomfortable because he

Michael Knowlescompliments her glasses that day or something that guy is very likely going to be gone the the corporate America has has so um taken the the feminist position to heart that that men don't even want to speak to women in the work

Pixieplace it's one of the reasons the companies often don't want to hire women is they recognize that their legal liability goes through the roof that seems like an exaggeration was that do you actually think that that if a guy compliment a girl's glasses I'm not saying she would report it cuz people are usually nice and men and women

Michael Knowlesgenerally like each other you think that's how much the institutions have over corrected that a man will get fired for just complimenting a woman innocuously and unsually I think he very easily could be punished for that yeah maybe not outright fired but he he would face professional I mean it be cool to

Michael Knowlessee stories that I haven't seen anything anywhere close and I feel like any type of conservative media Outlet would like jump jum on that hard all all I've got are are anecdotes here but no I don't think the conservative media would cuz we're not I'm not prosexual harassment also to go back to happiness and

Pixiefeminism and girl bosses and females in the workspace another reason that women could have lower reported happiness is because they're still showing showing up on most of the household duties despite now also taking up uh you know what I mean they're doing still AI domestic work they don't get married anyway so

Pixiethey don't even have households that's not true they're still they're still cohabitating they're still I agree cohabitation makes women unhappy too I mean even within marriage now you don't think a majority of there's a ton of marriages in which women are also working and then also

PixieShoring up a Lon share of the household duties and that's why they're unhappy because now they're being burden in two directions yeah sure but so what's the solution to that the solution solution is men showing up more on domestic duties but they won't because of

Pixiefreaking tradcons and neocons who are telling them that it's gay and beta if they do these certain tasks it is it is gay and beta most of the time I agree I also think that's why men are suffering so for instance like the unemployment rate of men returning back to the workforce is very very high right now

Michael Knowlesand that's because I men as like tradcons and neocons so for instance what do you mean by Neo you mean like the of warmongering you're a neocon I'm not liia or something what what does that

Michael Knowlesmean I'm not the politics guy okay NE I think we're using neocon in a way I'm not familiar with I'm using Donn Rumsfeld next to me okay a lot of just meninists are actually hurting men and I think they're also hurting women they're also hurting women because like I said

Pixiewomen are doing worse mentally because they're showing up on domestic duties and Men won't take up these responsibilities cuz it's seen as gay and beta and we you know what I mean you guys are an easy solution wait can I finish sure men are menist are kind of pushing for this like revanchist return to just like

Pixieolder times and even though you claim you're not trying to turn the clock back a lot of the solutions that men and us are advocating for just won't help men because the burgeoning sectors right now are overly feminized it's stuff like nursing Child Care hospitality and these industries are actually reaching out to

Pixiemen and they're trying to recruit them but a lot of men will turn them down and instead they're sitting on their ass they're addicted to opiates like over half of unemployed men are addicted to some sort of painkiller they're playing video games all day they're Jackie off to porn which is yes one problem but there's so many others and feminism is

Pixiewas telling men like you know what I mean leave your toxic masculinity behind join a nursing career join a teaching career but they won't do it because of tradcons and neocon telling them that they're gay and beta if they do these kind of like unw Warrior like positions H I don't know I don't am I in a warrior

Brian Atlaslike position what's that movie with dairo and Ben Stiller Meet the Parents where he's the male nurse do you agree with like don't think Richard Reeves's take on like men should be the way we pushed women to join stem we should be

Farha Khipushing men to join heel which is health education administrative jobs like do you think that there should be a push like instead of saying men do this job and women do this job like I don't think trackon do as much as like red I'm not pointing to say you're red pillar but

Farha Khilike that men Your Role is to be an ATM machine and to make money and like to be strong and fight and if you don't do that then you're not a man like you're not as much of a man if you're a teacher do you do you agree with that no I I've had wonderful male teachers you know I I

Michael Knowlesdon't really care to push people to any particular field or other I think I'm no no libertarian but I think the market will generally sort that out and and I think interference in that regard is usually does more harm than good but no

Michael Knowlesa man but you know teaching is a very manly thing actually you know I mean it's a you're imparting wisdom and knowledge and you're you know shaping a young mind that's a very manly field I agree but you said women are better at

Farha Khidomestic tasks than men are and teacher or a nurse is not a domestic task it can be it can occur inside the home and frequently does why does it seem like why does it why do domestic means within the home why do people see it as feminine like people see nurses and

Pixieteachers as feminine like a third grade male teach nurturing yeah so it's that that you think is better suited for women yeah I think women tend to be more nurturing than men that's because of their experience in the domestic life is that's why they're now more conent with

Pixiethese burgeoning industries such as nursing teaching Child Care Hospitality food preparation it's because of what they're being trained to do at the home so when tradcon say that like men should focus on public life while women should focus on these more domestic errand they're actually hurting men in the long

Michael Knowlesrun because now men aren't equipped to do these burgeoning industries look I think also you know don't forget life isn't just set and static all the time a woman could say go to school and then work a job job you know I don't know she teaches for a few years and then she

Michael Knowlesgets married and she wants to leave teach or she's a nurse for a few years or what you know we're not we don't just like sign up like surfs for the rest of our lives we're just doing one task but I do think that it's not just a matter of social construction I think women are

Michael Knowlesmore nurturing and so our nurses more likely to be women you know it are Elementary School teachers more likely to be women yes there some men that's that's interesting to say because when we look historically like the reason why

Farha Khiwomen tended to take those roles is because those were the only roles that society would let take it was not so say I don't really buy that no we can like look at the law study the last name was woo on the researcher where like if right now we have like a certain

Farha Khipercentage of women in stem and a certain percent of men in uh like heel types of jobs if people were actually choosing based on their interest you'd get you would still get more you're right but it would be like 30% men in

Michael Knowlespeople people are often duded by their interests you know and people uh have have a view of what they will excel at and uh what they're inclined to do that is often out of step with reality and virtually no influenced by what Society

Michael Knowlestells them they'll totally totally and but ironically I think we all concluded earlier that today it's the liberal feminist view that dominates all the major institutions right didn't we we men site not wanting to join

Pixienursing and teaching at part as part of the reason is because they see it as very feminine you think liberal feminism is the culprit and not meninism or neocon trecon you know it's the neocon thing keeps keeps shaking because

Pixieneocons refer to like Irving Crystal and Norman P Horus say do you think when say that they don't want to join nursing and teaching the nursing prrams and teaching programs have like put out you know I mean research of why men won't join these industries despite them reaching

Pixieout and one of the biggest reasons is because they feel like it's overly feminine do you think that's due to Liberal feminism or due to conservatism that fear no I think it's just natural I think it's just a natural thing about

Pixiemen they they are not inclined toward the uh Nur those more nurturing but the alternative is they're sitting at home unemployed right now they're reaching out to unemployed men it's not men in stem they're reaching out to men who are disaffected right now and they won't do

Michael Knowlesit still because it's seen as gay yeah I think the men the men should work you know but they should maybe do things that they're more inclined to do I don't think we need to conscript men to go become nurses wearing frilly little dresses but they're not more inclined to

Pixiedo because you know what I mean manual labor jobs are basically getting eradicated and a lot of these men not to be mean aren't necessarily smart enough to go into stem so I think other Industries might be better for them they they'd rather sit at home to preserve their masculinity and I think

Michael Knowlesconservatism is to blame for that part of part of no think Mass migration is actually to blame for the problem of the working classes not having as much employment as they used to um which is something that conservatives generally haven't pushed I think there are all

Michael Knowlessorts of political reasons that that happens but I don't think that any amount of feminist indoctrination and brainwashing is going to convince a man that he really wants to do an extremely feminine role not about really really

Farha Khiwants to do like you know what I mean that's an entitle G for doing that's a different a liberal feminism is that liberal feminism has to push up women but it has left I think Men Behind in a lot of ways and this is one of those also we're painting with way too broad a

Michael Knowlesbrush I mean a man can be a nurse and there are aspects of the nursing profession that can be perfectly masculine and same obviously same goes with teaching but if broadly if we want to zoom it out even further and say well these loser men who are all addicted to

Michael Knowlesopiates and they're just like you know sitting around with porn these guys need to get off their behinds and take the only job available to them which is to put on a frilly dress and be a girl I think that's a ridiculous false dich why do you see that as putting on a frilly

Pixiedress to go into like nursing and Hospitality supposing that it's feminine and gay you're doing the thing it is more feminine yeah it's really dressy to go into nursing that's here you're telling them that they're preserving their masculinity to

Michael Knowlessit at home and half of them being aded to painkillers I'm telling you I think it's a false dichotomy and I think the reason that you're picking those fields which are those are the most burgeoning 15 sectors right now everything a lot of other things are getting wiped out nursing is like a good what are the

Michael Knowlesother what are the other 15 what are the other 13 um janitor nursing child hity not food preparation that's not I mean so which ones are frill just

Michael Knowlesoutl like Emerald legasi right dick yeah Emerald legasi is not that's that's not too frill you know if you're a big man Chef you just like bam throw that's that can be you like you're hurting men with

Michael Knowlesthis kind of rhetoric of being like you need to add so much machismo to these professions be like okay I'm I'm not adding anything I'm I'm observing reality and articulating my per the reason you chose nursing is because

Michael Knowlesyou know that it's a generally n teaching child food well there are plenty of male teachers they tend to be more at the a little bit more at the middle school level than more at the high school level than many more at the college level that's true where where

Pixiethose teaching jobs require much less nurturing and a lot more just reciting facts and logic so okay I just want to ask do you think it's better for a guy to sit at home and be unemployed than going to nursing like you I think it's better I think it's better to work than

Michael Knowlesnot to work as long as the work is not intrinsically pursue nursing because it's gay they can pursue whatever they like to pursue but they but you're asking me why why are these men not inclined to pursue careers that they consider femin because they're men and because the differences between men and

Jasmine Jafarwomen are natural and they're not contingent on what you say and they're not contingent on what I say okay my question is that again if these things are so natural and we can search it up right now if you don't believe me but why have there been laws in place preventing women from working in fields

Michael Knowlesthat are not nursing or teaching historically if this is a biological imperative there would be no need for these laws i' be know which laws I'm I'm not disputing that uh women have been encouraged to stay home and that uh you

Michael Knowlesknow that socially that's changed because of the second world war or because of the Advent of secal Revolution and contraception and all of these other things that that that's certainly true uh but I I think that for

Michael Knowlesa long time we recognized that the family is the building block of society and so we wanted to encourage family formation and family stability and part of family formation and family stability is someone being able to raise the

Michael Knowleschildren someone being able to take care of the home while the other partner was outside of the home and you might say well why can't the man stay home with the kids and why can't the woman go to work yeah it can happen they're just generally not inclined to do that because women are the ones who have the

Michael Knowlesbabies and who are much sweeter with the babies and who are much more responsive to the baby's needs and men are the ones who generally are a little bit more outgoing and a little bit more publicly or you've been very nurturing to Kiki I have I even gave her one of my precious

Brian AtlasMayflower cigars available at Mayflower cigars.com but you have to be 21 years old or older some Supply we're going to read a couple chats then we have two quick topics and then we're going to

Brian Atlaswrap up here so we have baby b Michael love you dude and your reaction to Ben's facts rap first time watching live love the love the stupidity and facts on this

Brian Atlaschannel looking forward to more this year and maybe coming on sometime okay thank you so he's talking about my buddy Dr drel

Brian AtlasMich okay okay yeah and then we have cpio California even mad ex experts expers

Brian Atlasdon't agree that human life begins at conception 20 to 50% of women experience miscarriages in the first 13 weeks does that make those women murderers for not taking proper care of Health wow that

Michael Knowleseverything about that was wrong uh you know it to be a murderer you have to commit an action so if a woman miscarries she obviously hasn't committed an action her child has died and it's terribly sad and women suffer for that and we don't even talk about it

Michael Knowlesbecause we have to all pretend that the babies aren't really babies so the women usually have to suffer in silence but uh I also love this idea you know oh the experts say that uh logic isn't real anymore you know what is a a baby at

Michael Knowlesconception means the beginning right so the a b a baby is conceived when the sperm and the egg come together and they form a distinct human being with all of the building blocks and processes of a

Michael Knowleshuman being you might want to bury your head in the sand and deny that but I don't see how you can say it's obviously a human being it's not a platypus or a cow and it's obviously alive because it demonstrates all of the processes of life so you might say well the baby's

Farha Khinot morally significant I think we should kill them anyway but don't would you run over a pet Tre if you have to choose one I'm trying to like weird crawly experiment where it's like a live 2-year-old and then like 10 zygotes and do you do you feel like you should save

Michael Knowlesthe 10 you're saying Z got meaning that very earliest stage of perception maybe like um embryos were put into a freezer or something yeah is that life well would depend who the 2-year-old is because because there there are

Michael Knowlesgradations of you know I I owe greater charity to my family than I do a stranger it's a 2-year-old child and it's 10 zygotes and you have to kill which one would you choose it would be it would be dependent

TTS/Donationson more factors than you're giving me because the way you're setting it up oh BS donated $200 men find fulfillment in providing for their families financially which is

TTS/Donationswhy typically most men won't want to stay at home taking time off with nothing to do for a work Orient man is mind numbing and yet they're doing I that's for anybody yeah but they go crazy they all get like addicted to drugs and you're

Michael Knowlesreally sad and depressed so yeah they do it but it's not fulfilling to them to to your point though what you're setting up is is premised on like a utilitarian ethic so you're you're you're asking me you know to choose maybe I don't know the greatest good for the greatest

Farha Khinumber or but that's not how I view ethics you know no I understand that my point is that do you view a zyo like if I if I knocked 10 people 10 people did 10 people just die because 10's like okay okay I do I'm not I'm not saying

Michael Knowlesthat I reflexively in a moment if a fire came I wouldn't grab the 2-year-old instead of the zygote or whatever but but that is a human being yeah we have a chat here and burns thank you for your TTS by the way Juan Gomez hey thank you

Brian Atlasman appreciate it men tend to be more interested in things and women tend to be more interested in people that's going to play out on what people choose as their career I agree with this I'm just saying that like let's say we have that's what the study showed like we

Farha Khihave 15% of women in and then what if if people were actually choosing it would be now 30% it still would be on average that more women are interested in people and men are interested in things but if people are free to choose their own uh

Farha Khiinterest out without having any cultural or social factors in it it's still true that more men may do this and more women may do this but more men than we see now may be in certain fields and more women would be in other fields I don't even know what that means though like women

Pixieare more interested in people and men and things I guess my debate partner is a thing who looks like a person but I'm very interested in people I don't even know really what that means when you look at careers women tend to work with other people while men are more

Pixieinterested in things like stem and locks in a room example of like little boys with trucks and little girls with dolls that's what they that's true Michael

TTS/Donationsno's Garden donated $200 my sprinkler goes like

Brian Atlasthis comes back like this interesting mhm yep mhm do do you have a sprinkler system at in your I did and I gave him a phone

Michael Knowlesactually okay I did and I thought I just said like to my my garden system I said call me if anything goes wrong but he's abusing that what I gave him and now he's subcribing giving away 200 bucks where'd you get that 200 bucks Garden

Brian Atlasthat comes from me that spreaded from my land uh last two things since we were talking about professions for a little bit uh nin thing that uh often topic

Brian Atlasthat I hear um in feminist discourse is the wage Gap uh do you guys believe that there is a wage Gap I mean yeah there is a wage Gap like women generally make less money than men

Farha Khiwhether it's morally okay or not it's a different question but it's undeniably there pixie yeah there is a wage Gap Jasmine um I I agree that there technically is but the reasons for it may be like I do agree with that

Farha Khiargument that men may take on longer hours Etc women leave to take care of their kids now would women choose like the way the system is set up to take that negative impact of going home with their because when when women leave to take care of their kids really hard to

Farha Khiget back into the workforce would they choose that is that ideal no but that's the way the our system is set up so I think there's a lot of variables here and it's the way all work is set up right you're always going to prioritize more consistent experience yeah I

Michael Knowlestotally agree with your view sure it exists but trust me if any business could save 25% of labor costs by hiring women only women would be working it's not it's obviously because women don't work as long hours they like to spend

Michael Knowlesmore time with their kids they take time off of course that cost that they take for that is unfortunate but yeah maybe I think it's good I I think it's good for them to spend time with their kids I think it's better than working in the

Brian Atlaswidget Factory pixie do you think that the the gender wage Gap gender earnings Gap is it due to some of the reasons that Jazzman articulated or do you think

Jasmine Jafarit's due to perhaps sexism no there are obviously cases where this is a case right where there's difference in hours and stuff but there have been like a decent amount of studies showing that even um when things are all equal

Jasmine Jafarbetween um resumés or even between like job performance um when conducted blind um you know the woman will get the proper appraisal approval whatever but if it's a gendered name or even if it's

Jasmine Jafarjust like viewed as a gendered or whatever um women will suffer so there is like a pre societal um connotation on the idea that like hey women are less able or apt to do certain X or Y task I

Brian AtlasI do have not I know I'm kind of moderating this I just want to jump in on one thing uh this was a couple years ago I think Google did a very thorough and in-depth review of how they were I believe paying their Engineers perhaps

Brian Atlasit was a different uh segment of their employees and they actually found that they were underpaying the men and overpaying the women would that then be evidence that

Jasmine JafarGoogle it was uh was or is sexist towards men it could be I would have to see the study specifically and what they accounted for but yeah it's theoretically possible um for a company

Michael Knowlesto also be sexist towards men mhm yeah yeah for sure I you know I recently was negotiating my contract with my beloved employers and I was talking to my wife who I gives me a lot of advice and I

Michael Knowlessaid should I ask for a little bit more on this thing or that she was like I don't know Mike I don't know I would just take what they offer you it's really nice I would just I said yeah but I don't know they want me to kind of I'm not you know they're going to not respect me if I don't and she was like

Michael Knowlesah ma this is why women make 25% less money because we just don't want to negotiate and we and I I totally is your wife a South Park believe it she's a mixture of Minnie Mouse

Michael Knowlesandman and like consa I don't know I've been doing that voice for her for like 15 years now sounds ex I got to Google his wife after this that's amazing so

Michael Knowlesaccurate yep okay uh any other anything else on the wage Gap Michael or no it's real but it's fine like you know raising kids is good having like you know who

Michael Knowlescares man money is great I like money I like being able to pay my bills I like being able to buy nice cigars like Mayflower cigars Mayflower cigars 21 years older older to buy them exclusions apply but like I you know there's more to life than money this is only $14 a

Michael Knowlesstick that's a great price after a box discount it's like $9 a stick you know what are you going to do with all this money you're going to just pile it up and buy more stuff who cares man they used to say that kids were the poor man's wealth you know and kids I I'll

Michael Knowlestell you I take my job seriously I love my career I love being in public life and having whatever political influence I have it's awesome it means nothing compared to having children I finished

Michael Knowlesmy first book with words speechless when I was in the delivery room with my our first child and my wife's there pushing out this kid and I'm there finishing the final edits on my book to send in they were both doing the same day they both

Michael Knowlescame and I I thought okay I finally done I poured my heart and soul into this 18 months of writing and I look over at my kid and I realize that my book doesn't matter at all and I think it's a good

Michael Knowlesbook and it became a number one bestseller and it nothing it matters nothing compared to a baby and so I just think good grief woman you know you're going to put off having a family this

Michael Knowlesthis wonderfully edifying thing to go make like an extra 50 Grand a year 150 Grand a year who car like are you kidding me what a what a terrible deal there's two things I want to say on that

Jasmine Jafartopic um the first one is hopefully we both can agree that the wage Gap is a problem if let's say two people um are doing the same exact work or whatever one shouldn't be looked down upon by their sex um again we said that there's

Jasmine Jafarcases where we understand the wage Gap but hopefully we can agree on that when when all factors are equal that should not be if my if my Grandma had Wheels she'd be a wagon sure you know if things were different they'd be different okay um and I guess the second thing is that

Jasmine JafarI think um the misconception or what's down being downplayed here is that there are strong correlation if not just straight up causation of being able to

Jasmine Jafarum have a kid that's healthier um more educated has better life prospects um just overall a better life if you can afford a better life for them so I think there is something to be said about like

Jasmine Jafarhey you don't have to be the top 1% owner or you don't need that extra 25% in your income yeah but I think there is also something to be said about like hey a lot of these women the reason why they still want to work or they're still

Jasmine Jafarinterested because they want to provide the best possible life they can for their family so I think um there is a balance to be struck there I don't think it's all just like oh it's kind of frivolous money we have a bad political economy right now that basically forces

Michael Knowleswomen to work even when they don't want to so it's no longer a choice it's more an obligation for most people and I agree that bad and we should take political action to change that I'm all for I think that would be great uh

Michael Knowleshowever you can raise kids on not a lot of money uh you know I didn't come from a ton of money and I know a lot of my friends didn't come from a ton of money and you know yes you need to be able to eat you need a roof over your head you need some clothes but you can do that

Michael Knowlesfor a lot less than we have now the problem is the two the two income trap is that once you start living that dink lifestyle you know dual income no kids or the dinky lifestyle where it's like no kids yet you get a customed to a

Brian Atlasstandard of living that you don't want to give up but but it it's worth it yeah make sure you can feed your kids but make sure you have kids to feed last two things here on the wage Gap um when it

Brian Atlascomes to things like uh sports for example you know we've had in the uh the national US Women's Soccer Team they actually filed a lawsuit um I don't know if you guys are familiar with that at

Brian Atlasall so do you guys think that for example the between the NBA and the WNBA or the Women's National St team compared to the men's do you think there should be an

Michael Knowlesequalization in what they're paid no cuz one generates more money pixie yeah yeah let's go you guys are the most patriarchal feminists I've ever my whole

Brian Atlaslife but then in only fans we make more money you know so yeah should they're equal pay for men on only fans I think is is our next you're just mad I'm

Brian Atlasbeating you pretty much um and last last thing you only fans for his feet right oh what's what do you sell on only fans nothing I don't have we don't we do

Brian Atlastechnically have onlyfans.com whatever there's one clothed picture of Kiki that's it wow oh so it's not you no no no no yeah I could see people for KiKi

Brian Atlasobvious with her beautiful cigar you know what well okay um last thing on the wage Gap um do you uh I have a question for the three of you do you uh when it

Brian Atlascomes to like dating right and we are going to have a dating talk after this with Michael joining us on that uh when it comes to dating who do do you guys want a guy to be a provider do you want him to for example pay on first dates just starting with you far going across

Pixiedo I want him to be a provider necessarily in terms of like rent necessarily like I'm planning on buying my own house regardless of what my partner makes when it comes to paying on the first day I would prefer a partner who does that not necessarily because I need the money or I'm gold digging but I

Pixiethink as a woman we are just way more sexually selective and so the chances of me even swiping on a guy in a dating app and then actually pursuing the date are so slim versus a guy is going to take up any woman so I think actually having to shore up resources shows like an equal

Jasmine Jafarmeasure of selectiveness sure go ahead um personally I don't really care about like splitting on a first date I do think it is more attractive when a guy does that but I think it's for one of

Jasmine Jafarthe reasons that far listed um do what is it I want somebody who makes around the same income as me or higher I'd be okay dating somebody who makes less um

Farha Khion the condition that they're taking up more of the household labor which is ically not likely and Jasmine what about you uh first date like I just feel like if the person who ask should pay and I feel like if a guy doesn't I just get

Farha Khithis idea he's stingy and I'm definitely not stingy like I like to pay for as many people as I can and then when it comes to the other question I actually like I have such high standards when I look for things like intellect humor that I don't that's why I make a bunch of money myself like I'm actually

Farha Khilooking for a really hot Chef he doesn't have to make money he'll just cuz I can't cook so I'm looking for a homemaker so slide in my DM well you want you want a wife yeah but like a hot Chef you did say whoever should pay more

Pixieoften than not though are you asking men out or have you do you ask men out I don't ask men out that's it's sort of almost uh I agree I think it's funny when feminists say like no whoever as

Pixieshould pay it's like fact that because more the thing about you you just said it's we're more selective it's funny the semantics to just say like no no I don't think the menever should what

PixieI mean why do you want your own house um so I could just be financially independent pick where I want to live even even if you're married um yeah like I would probably buy a house before pursuing dating for

Pixiemarriage yeah so what if and then he would have his own house and You' I guess from there we would figure it out from there if we wanted to sell the house or both live in the house like I'd be fine moving a guy into my house yeah but and you would still own the house or you'd split the house with him or he or

Pixieyou'd transfer it to him I I wouldn't transfer it to him it would be my house for sure you would have separate finances uh I don't know about that but in terms of like where I want to live I'm 100% picking that on my own and getting my own house okay but so if the

Pixieman com go your bank accounts would go together but you'd keep the house in your name um if we're married I guess we'd figur it out as we go but I'd probably like date someone and then I don't know I just don't want to be dependent I don't want to like you don't want to be dependent so that right

Michael Knowlesexactly you don't want to be dependent so why get married why get married yeah I I could be independent it'd be I could live on my own I could hire a maid I could hire a cook I could just whatever you know I

Michael Knowlesdon't want to be independent I want to be dependent on my wife I love my wife I want to make a vow that I'm going to stay with my wife forever and have a nice big family and I don't want to be separated at all I want to be one flesh with my wife if I didn't want to do that

Pixieif I wanted to just be on my own but have someone to mitigate the loneliness and occasionally sleep with why get married at all I I do want to get married I am going to eventually date to Mary I think like my goal is to eventually start dating like a year

Pixiedating under three months get engaged get married I don't want to do the like multi-year dating and like cohabitating before I think that's a joke I think it's a waste of time but I'm also I'm also cognizant of the fact that men today are a joke and there's a one in four chance that your husband's going to

Pixiecommit infidelity and I don't believe necessarily like purs things you can do to mitigate those stats though mitigating infidelity for on my husband's part what being a blow doll for him no I wouldn't recommend

Michael Knowlesthat either uh no the things you could do is marry men who for instance don't recognize the sacramental reality of divorce just to use exle I said I said

Pixieinfidelity or or who recognize that infidelity is every man I've ever dated has been Christian conservative and at least one of them I found an Oculus in his closet where he's watching VR porn in my experience like I said at the macro level it's usually these Christian

Pixieconservatives who are the most porn addicted and at a micro level these met them dating you date a lot of these Christian conservatives there's something about them that attracts you well I'm waiting till marriage good oh good so you don't okay well look that I

Michael Knowlesthink that's fabulous and I love that you as a feminist are very attracted to Christian conservative men I think that's good for society broadly um it's bad that these guys are like looking at porn or what whatever uh I don't know that that necessarily implies that once

Michael Knowlesthey get married they would either continue to do that or would step out on you and cheat and have an affair or whatever I it does seem to me though that certain groups of men are less likely than others to sleep with other

Michael Knowleswomen and so you know if you want to have that good stable life and maybe overcome your fears of being dependent on someone who might be a total loser then you might might want to make sure you don't pick a total loser but even stepping out aside I mean I give you

Michael Knowlesthose STS stats about correlation between religious men and pornography consumption prostitution purchasing so like how can you say that some people who are broadly religious of some sect or other uh do that and all PE people

Michael Knowlesare tempted by things but I don't think that we can just throw our hands in the air and fall into a kind of romantic quietism and say Well they're all just these dog these men are all dogs they're

Michael Knowlesall cats no actually some men are more inclined to Virtue than others and uh you know that that might if you but based off the stats they would seem the religious men are less inclined to

Michael KnowlesVirtue they're buying that's ridiculous you're you're telling me that that uh Christian men are more are more like no no no you gave me a stat and said uh you know certain red states with certain religious groups consume certain kinds

Michael Knowlesof porn or whatever the more Christians are in state the more pornography consumption and searches there are in prostitution purchases yes it would seem that perhaps there are other factors at play there when you're talking about a full State I don't know when you're

Michael Knowlestalking about class income when you're talking about education when you're talking about family formation in the first place when you're talking for goodness sakes you're talking about geography you know we're talking about whole states here and you're pulling one

Michael Knowlesvariable out and saying see there it is the correlation is the qu quation that's crazy uh oh you were cut it's okay you can cut me off that's fine my only question to you

Pixieis you're saying that the thing that is preventing you from wanting to be codependent on a man actually engage in this marriage totally giving yourself because I I've become disillusioned with the state of tradcons and I think they're hoax no you don't think it's

Michael Knowlesyou're you're picking on tradcon because you you think that they're your ideological opponents I don't think they are I don't think so if that was the case I wouldn't date them I well I I think that if one identifies as a

Michael Knowlesliberal feminist then necessarily tra tradcons are your ideological foes I I completely dise simar uh perceptions of hookup culture and a lot of things depending on

Pixiethe sect of feminism I am I actually find way more common ground with uh conservative men than liberal men I like that's fabulous but but you think they're not living up to it okay well then you know find I think they overcorrect they they will vouch that they don't watch porn they're going to

Pixiebe like you know what I mean they the more they talk about how disgusted they are by porn the more like I am to find out that it turns out that they are watching por and like I said I found that at like the micro anecdotal level of my dating life and then also at the

Brian Atlasmacro level just based on statistics wait you object to your partner watching pornography um it wouldn't be ideal yes but you you my understanding is you don't do any nudity in your only fans

Michael Knowlescontent but you wait you have an only fans too yeah she doesn't she are you kidding me I've been oh man I thought you strung me along so well and now you're going to pull the

Michael Knowlesrug hold on you're the one who's trying to entice these men to to look at this stuff and and then you're trying to put all of the blame on them my only fans I started a year ago I'm talking about I this is why I became disillusioned and pink pilled is because I did everything

Pixieright I was a virgin all through college I'm still a virgin I do all these things I date these Christian conservatives they talk about waiting till marriage they talk about going to church every Sunday porn addicts all of them yeah yeah no look I I don't doubt that porn addict is totally prevent and if they're

Pixienot watching porn they're they're following Instagram models they're going to Hooters it's mostly conservative men conservative men that I'd go on dates with they'd have these like posters of like nude play girls and stuff like that like Playboy bunnies and stuff and that's are you dating like 65-year-old

Michael Knowlesmen what are you talking about Playboy it's more of these conservative like Midwestern boys who like have that type of paraphernalia more hold on now are we talking to their are we talking about like a pinup thing in your garage from the' 40s or are we talking about like

Pixieactual porn addiction where people are are it does all the same I'm just saying that like why why why is going to Hooter is more acceptable why can't I throw my chips in wait one question so but you you do make

Brian Atlasonly fans content so I guess how do you reconcile that with objecting to your partner watching that sort of content but you also produce that kind of content I don't necessar well go ahead go ahead I mean I just think it's funny

Pixiebecause always on these red pill shows they'll talk men will get on here and be like yes I watch porn but I wouldn't date a porn star so what's the issue you're saying I do porn but I wouldn't date a guy watches it yes because I'll tell you why if you actually look at pair bonding watching porn does affect

Michael Knowlesyour neurochemistry and your pair bonding me being lusted after does not affect my neurochemistry or my parness but you're enticing them to do it like I I'm I'm maybe the least judgmental person on the right when it comes to this stuff because all all sin and fall

Michael Knowlesshort of the glory of God but you you are part of the problem and you're you're the the thing that you're envey against is something that you are encouraging as and profiting from as you

Pixieencourage it that's only if you if you consider lusting to only exist within pornography I think even if my boyfriend were lusting after like 18-year-olds like a cashier at a grocery store I would think that's just as wrong as

Pixiewatching pornography but and pornography in I'm not inflam way even if I didn't do pornography and I was just an attractive woman that doesn't mean I'm enticing Men by putting on makeup every day it's up to them not L after putting

Pixieon a little bit of rouge is going to be less exciting to a man than doing pornography I don't know if you've heard JP talked about it he says women put blush to simulate sexual orgasm in their face and you want to get into female coalitions there's a very interesting

Michael Knowlesanthropological point to that very thing you've just said but clearly there are gradations also a 1940s pinup poster and hardcore porn on the Internet one is going to excite one more than the other

Pixieyes and if we're talking gradations and where I Fall In Those gradations is probably on the more mild side I don't do nuded content but um you don't do nude content what is only fans I thought only fans content if anyone wants to

Pixiecheck it out you can post whatever you want cardi B just gets and is one of the top 10 creators but um I mean regardless like I said even if I did do nude content even if I did necessarily like touch myself on camera that doesn't

Michael Knowlesaffect my neurochemistry in terms of pair bonding but a man men you're do you're you're doing something bad to these men and then complaining that the men are bad well that doesn't follow cuz if I wore a bikini and went to the beach

Pixiethat doesn't mean that it's my fault then if my boyfriend checks out women and just stares at them on the beach like I'm not respons wom should be more yeah I do I do think they should I don't think most people would describe to that I don't think most people would say that if I wear a bikini on the beach that means I'm a hypocrite if I say I

Michael Knowlesdon't want my boyfriend just ogling women at the beach all the time and I think that would make an improper you're you're not really complaining about men who go to the beach and maybe take a little Gander down the down the shore you are specifically complaining about

Pixiemen who look at pornography no I didn't that's why I brought up vs Angel shows that's why I brought up Hooters that's why I brought up the posters secret why would I bring up all these things if the threshold for me was just pornography that's why I walked it back and said all these other things you did walk it back

Michael Knowlesincluded these other things which I think are totally legitimate but you know there are plenty of things that I think are bad and and plenty of sins that I fall into like all the time right

Pixiebut I I don't I don't complain about them being bad while actively promoting them that there's no cognitive dissonance there no I think it's bad if you're in a relationship and you're lying to your partner and saying I don't

Pixiewatch porn and then you do it and then you consume it that doesn't mean I think that doesn't mean I think watching porn is morally bad on its own if I want that that's why same reason I said I don't

Pixiethink necessarily dating women is bad but if I was married to a man then yes I would say him dating other women is bad do mean I'm condemning dating in general so you're you're coming back to the same thing that you said about abortion which is I would never do it but I'm not going to say it's wrong for no I think once

Pixieyou're in a relationship there are certain activities that you should not do because such as dating other women so what if what if your partner says that it's okay to do that what do you mean I would find someone who has moral congruence to me right but I'm say

Michael Knowlesyou're you're saying if you're in a relationship you shouldn't date other women but what if not you but some guy were dating some girl and the dating you you really oh no and you would say okay it's fine if you date other women would you say that's then you then you would

Pixiesay in that relationship it is fine to sleep with other women or no like are you asking me do I have objective moral guidelines for what dating should look like yeah um

PixieH I think I think if your goal is to have the most optimal marriage there's lots of things you should not do such as I think should have a low body count if you want to optimize you know longevity of marriage I don't think you should watch porn at the same time I don't like that it stops at just those two things

Pixielike I think those are just the two things we use to shame women and try to force them into modesty but there's other things for instance like you shouldn't even cohabitate with your boyfriend before marriage even if you're not sleeping together if you technically want to increase your chances of longevity and even once why shouldn't

Pixieyou cohabitate it's not about shouldn't it I'm I'm saying it more why would you discourage cohabitating it's not about discouraging that's why I'm saying I'm not moralizing whatever you just said about coab why are you saying if your aim is to have the longest most healthiest most happiest marriage

Pixiepossible statistically speaking not having previous sexual partners not living together before marriage will optimize those things that doesn't mean I'm moralizing it same way again why we cohabitating because it's an important point on what we were just talking about um you desensitize you kind of shore up

Pixieon wely duties before actually getting wife it gives the guy this incentive where he doesn't have to you know buy the cow because he's getting the milk for free all that but um that actually pans out statistically but my point is we talk and because it's enticing right because it's tempting

Michael Knowlesyou're not going to cohabitate and not sleep together that's not true you think you could cohabitate and not sleep together I've done it yeah really yeah wow was the man a homosexual are you saying he's going to

Pixietransgress my barriers if I'm like don't me no I think he would find it I think he would move out before he would deal with that regardless I'm just saying there are certain things that will optimize your marriage for instance even once you're married if you guys don't sleep in the same bed that will

Pixieactually lead to a stronger marriage that doesn't mean I necessarily prescribe it it just depends what are these variables that you want to add into your relationship to strengthen it M so it's not that I would say a guy shouldn't necessarily watch porn if his girlfriend's okay with it same way again

Michael Knowlestechnically I wouldn't prescribe don't sleep in the same bed together even though that could also disaffect your marriage you've come to so many so many of the right moral conclusions but you just don't want to take credit for them you don't want to say that they're true

Michael Knowlesyou just want to say that you just accidentally you to ask this you probably prescribe that people don't have premarital sex right yeah I would iin marriage no I listen I was an atheist for 10 years I did a lot of a lot of naughty things

Michael Knowlesokay and you would probably prescribe that people don't watch pornography in marriage yes and the reason being that that would disaffect your chances of marital success and happiness no I I don't as we were talking about earlier on ethics I don't view ethics from the

Michael Knowlesperspective of consequences I View eth From perspective of good so they're kind of hand in hand that's but I don't I don't uh consider uh means in light of ends I don't know I don't think that

Michael Knowlesgood ends would justify immoral means what I'm saying is that actions are good or bad depending on the action and and more importantly actually on the character of virtue of of the the person

Michael Knowleswho is acting in them so the way that I would ascertain what's good or bad is uh is according to Virtue not according to some weird calculation of like statistics say I'm going to be married longer or whatever final thought from the both of you on this go go ahead I

Pixiewas just going to say well statistically speaking couples are happier together when they don't sleep in the same bed would you not prescribe that then because there's no virtue tied to it that's more no there's a lot of virtue tied to to modesty and restraint and waiting until marriage know that's not

Pixiewhat I meant even once you're married you'll have a more successful marriage statistically speaking if you don't sleep in the same bed as your that's very aristocratic I'm too middle class to do that but but yeah the the aristocratic classes sleep in different beds I guess my point was that people

Michael Knowlespick and choose what level of parabon they want to create with their partner whether it's not watching pornography having premarital sex and then not sleeping in the same bed I'm skeptical that you actually have more marital satisfaction if you don't sleep in the same bed but the British Royals have been doing it for a long time and they

Brian Atlasall cheat on each other I guess so right I guess what I was trying to outline that there's a lot of move on we have seberg here no wage Gap it's an earnings Gap the 77 cents to the dollar stat is a

Brian Atlaslabor stat that took total earnings by each sex divided by total workers feminism tends to look only until proof of victimhood is found hey seberg thank you man appreciate it actually the and

Brian Atlasto come back to my point I was actually trying to make earlier asking all of you if you would prefer a man to pay on the first date couldn't it be the case I mean even if we remove the fact that for example men tend to work more hours

Brian Atlasthey're more likely to relocate for work they're more likely to work hazardous hazardous jobs and there's a whole bunch of other variables um given the answers that you provided to my question about if you would prefer a man to pay for the

Brian Atlasfirst date let's say let's assume that somewhere between 30 to 50% of women also hold that it might be more couldn't it be fair to say that just on that sole thing that

Brian Atlassole the the sole thing that women prefer men to be providers or prefer men to pay on that first date wouldn't that be enough of a mating pressure of a

Brian Atlasmating force to be a stronger motivating factor for men to occupy higher positions of or positions of higher status positions that pay more

Brian Atlasmoney as compared whereas women don't have that corresponding mating pressure men are really not having a putting a pressure on women to pay for first dates for example what is it that's certainly

Jasmine Jafarpossible the problem that I think most feminists would point out is that when it does come to the women who are putting that self- pressure whatever um performing highly trying to get like

Jasmine Jafarthat next pay raise promotion um when it comes to studies that do like double blind um who try to like account for other factors they're still not being picked because of gender bias that's a problem it's not necessarily that men

Jasmine Jafarwant to get these higher positions of power that's that to me that's not a problem it's a problem is that if we start making all things equal women are still being punished for it then that's weird to me it's very difficult to make

Michael Knowlesall things equal so even you know even when you drill down and I'll just take those statistics for what they're worth uh still if you have a a society that um

Michael Knowlesgives an advantage to women as a matter of say affirmative action or some Dei policy or and you know and and that begins very early on it begins in high school and then it goes on to college and then maybe you get into maybe get a little bonus on your sat and then maybe you get into the medical school because

Michael Knowleswe want more women they're underrepresented in the field and and then maybe the firm looks at you or the medical office and says well I don't know that this woman she's got she went she graduated college but she didn't graduate as good a college as this man or she did graduate the same College as

Michael Knowlesthe man but I don't know that she really deserved it you know that I'm not saying that's just exactly but I I think they they are at least justified in that prejudice because we got a whole system right now that says that if you're a

Michael Knowleswoman you get bonus points and this is the I mean Clarence Thomas has written about this extensively he says I I had a trouble getting job after graduating Yale law school Yale law school is the best school in the country I'm Clarence Thomas I'm like one of the greatest uh

Brian Atlasjudges in in American history uh but he couldn't do it because he was black and they assumed he was an affirmative action case yeah last sorry just to move on we only have a few more minutes here five 10 more minutes then we're going to wrap up this came up earlier in the

Brian Atlasconversation I believe I said we'd get back to it uh so pixie I know you've kind of had some thoughts on this on your previous appearances uh you know when it comes to feminism obviously

Brian Atlasthat's typically advocacy for equality advocacy for women um I think it's important when we're talking about that

Brian Atlasto again Define our terms so um as a nod to the Daily wi and Matt Walsh what is a woman you're GNA hate me for this one Michael but um before I have Michael

Jasmine Jafarrespond to you I I want all of you to respond why we have pixie go then far then and then Jasmine go ahead um a woman is a person who acts and is perceived as our societal perception of

Pixiea woman that's at least half of it far um I'd like to do more research on this topic before publicizing an opinion Vito

Michael Knowlesare you joking that's really your answer that is my answer as of now hey come on so even if you couldn't even if you're not going to reason about it let's just talk from your own personal prejudices and stuff what do you come on just

Michael Knowlesbetween us gals just between US just between us gals that's here we can talk after the show but I like to thff wants you to I like to thoroughly think out my opinions before publicizing

Farha Khithem and platforming them come on you don't have a hunch I bet you have a hunch of I I have a hunch but doesn't mean I want to platform my hunches you okay too dangerous to venture an answer these days okay have a hunch yeah uh I would take kind of Pixie view I think

Farha Khiwomen can be I don't think trans women and biological women are the same but I don't think trans women are men either like there you know you can have an umbrella term for women and have both trans women and biological women under it without realizing that without also saying that they're exactly the same and

Farha Khithey have all the same issues and everything's the same if they're neither men nor women women what are they they are women I said but they're I would say they're a part of the umbrella of wom okay not a part of the umbrella of man yeah they are because they're biological

Farha Khimen so they're both you can be a trans man or a biological man or you can be a a transom woman and a biological woman so depending on how you're looking at it if you're looking at biology yeah they're not the same can you though can your identity be different you know your

Jasmine Jafarmetaphysical identity be different from your biological identity can definitely be different than your social identity how easy um when this goes back to the whole chromosomes argument but like you didn't

Jasmine Jafarcheck any of our chromosomes or biology before calling us a woman right which kind of I think there are enough indicators enough indicators but you base those indicators on like appearance so obviously perception you know you

Farha Khilook like women you walk like women you smell like women I I think you're women that's her point is a performance and you're basing off the secondary sex characteristics is what you're basing them on and people can change their secondary sex yeah your bodies is what I'm basing it on which you can change

Michael Knowlesthat but you but I not not sure that you can actually because I think what's what's here at the basis of it is a gnostic idea that you're you can separate your soul and your body and I know we don't like to use the word Soul anymore so we'll say your identity man

Michael Knowlesor whatever but that you can separate that from your body and I just don't think you can I think a woman is the sort of person who isn't a man I think that's the basic definition of a woman what's a man then a man is the sort of person who isn't a woman what how did

Farha Khiyou know we were women because you look like women okay and you sound like women and when I talk to you you give the impression that you're women so if a really good passing transwoman is here and you were mistaken then I would be

Farha Khimistaken but he would not be a woman no but my point looking at is secondary sex characteristics and those are things that people can those are the signs that oh this is all men and women and like but I'm not saying the signs are

Farha Khisynonymous with their sex I'm saying the signs are signs and the signs symbolize something but there is something to say about somebody that like like you said walks talks looks like a woman and to say that this is now 100% a man 100 no

Michael Knowlesthere's you have to say no he would be he would be per Performing as a woman and he might even fool me depending on how much surgery he socially be a woman he he would be he would try to do that but I I don't think Society should

Michael Knowlesrecognize those TR he would succeed to the point you don't even realize usually you do realize is the thing I like I know they convince themselves that they really yeah but they you know I've met plenty of transexuals cuz they protest

Michael Knowlesmy speeches and they uh usually you can tell because again it gets to what we're talking about the very top of this debate which was the the question of

Michael Knowleshuman nature right I think me and Old Uncle Aristotle believe that you're you're a body and a soul together I'm not just my soul trapped in a useless body I'm not just my body without a soul

Michael Knowlesor totally separated from my soul I think I'm a soul and a and a and a body together so my body gives me much of my sex it to use the technical term it's an Inseparable accident of the individual

Michael Knowlesuh I and and I think that pertains to my whole person CU you can't separate those two for the whole of my life if you change can can men get pregnant can men

Michael Knowlesget pregnant not biological men okay yeah trans men can okay yeah can we really divide men up like that like I'm

Jasmine Jafara biological man but I'm a spiritual woman and I'm a I mean we do um what is it we do classifications um within gender all the time black women white women for example that would be racial

Jasmine Jafaryeah no but that's within the scope of women you're still saying oh there there's women who are black there's women who are not black there are women who have had essay experiences there's women who haven't

Michael Knowleshad experiences race is real though it's actually uh more difficult to pin down than sexual difference but it's real yeah they're different races sure so you can black people and white people are different races and men and women are

Michael Knowlesdifferent Sexes last thing on oh sorry one can't become the other except in the case of Michael Jackson who he got the closest but he was still I think he was still a black guy wasn't that V Lia that that's what he said that's what he

Jasmine Jafarsaid I don't know if I believe Michael Jackson cuz he was actually you um stum I don't want to say stumbled cuz that's condescending but whatever you stumbled onto something quite interesting I'm glad I did because the whole idea is

Jasmine Jafarthat when it comes like the notion of race um the reason why Michael Jackson is was technically never white he was always black is because we treat race as like a historical um a historical question basically what we're asking

Jasmine Jafarwhen we ask somebody what's your race is basically what is your ancestry like what got you here to be here now versus sex where or gender specifically where we treat at more of a societal conception like what are you performing as yeah I don't treat it that way at all

Michael Knowlesand I think that sexual I mean I think racial difference is real the reason Michael Jackson's black is because he did Thriller you know I don't think you can't really change your race Rachel doll has all tried and she ruined her life because of it uh but if you could I

Michael Knowlesmean I'm kind of swarthy right you might think I'm like Arabic or Mexican or something even though I'm Italian and waspy I don't know waspy what you see in the Mayflower cigar actually uh but I certainly couldn't change my sex because the the difference between a black guy

Michael Knowlesand a white guy I'm not saying there are not differences that there are physical differences there are cultural differences sure maybe but those differences are nothing compared to the difference between a man and a woman okay the point is I think what

TTS/Donationswe're trying to get at here is that when it comes to like our conception of sex versus gender um we base our conception of gender on how Dustin wasburn donated $200 Michael with your talk and logic

Michael Knowlesabout Sol and body do you believe it's possible for the wrong soul to be placed in the wrong body no because I I think following Old Uncle St Thomas ainus that

Michael Knowlesthe the sex derives mostly from the body so it's it would be incoherent to say uh that the the soul is another sex because if the soul were a different sex the soul being the substantial form of the body it would mean that men and women

Brian Atlasare different species and men and women have a lot of differences but we're not why did God create for Dustin thank you last thing on this um and I think pixie you've had on your previous appearances you've maybe had thoughts on this and I

Brian Atlasthink feminists tend to differ on this last topic that we're going to hit on uh when it comes to the trans discussion Sports um do you think that there should be

Jasmine Jafarseparation what are your thoughts on uh for example trans women uh trans women participating in women's sports yeah so I think um what I've currently seen of

Jasmine Jafarthe data and studies is that even after taking hormones and St and there might still be advantages in certain ways so to me it would be like it's a theoretical question like I would have to have more data but basically if it

Jasmine Jafarseems that some of like these biological advantages are like too high or it cannot be um mitigated enough through the use of hormones and such then yeah it would be too much of an unfair

Jasmine JafarAdvantage versus um if the data shows otherwise and it's like no actually it is like mitigated well enough so that's my general stance aren't we just all slaves to like the data you know it's

Michael Knowleslike the if the study shows love the data yeah maybe but the the data are so manipulated I mean social scientific data they're in a major replication crisis well if it wasn't the scientific method is our best way to get to the truth is it I'm not sure about that I

Michael Knowleswould say so so I think it's the best we have otherwise we just have our anecdotes and our feelings what look I'm I'm all for empirical scientific analyses of the things that that it can measure but but those are all physical things and what we're talking about here is deeper than a physical thing right

Farha Khiwe're talk because we're we're not mere flesh I don't think I don't think think we're MH this is where we disagree cuz we think that you think you're just flesh no no no we disagree on whether like you're like oh like the issue here isn't the data the data on whether this

Michael Knowleswould be unfair to women is what I care about well because if it wasn't then I would say yeah they do but the data on whether this is unfair to women are not going to come from some like dork Economist that those data are going to come from the reality of the different

Farha Khiit's going to come from natural scientists certainly it's going to come from uh people who have an understanding of what human nature is and what Justice is human nature debate I think this is about does your muscle mass give you an advantage and if you take hormones it

Michael Knowlesseems to not like you said reverse all of the advantages that you have how does a scientific study conclude something about fairness or Justice how do you measure justice under jump to that conclusion but we use their conclusions

Michael Knowlesto then make our opinion oh you're saying your so you would look at a scientific survey and say wow that big Husky dude who ran who swam against the women turns out he was a lot faster than all those little women and therefore I

Farha Khiconclude that men competing against women in a women's sport is unjust no what you should do you should be like hey okay how do we realize if like okay I don't know should uh trans women compete with real women H I don't know do they have an unfair Advantage by I

Farha Khilove that you slipped there and you said real women well biological women okay biologic you just accidentally said what we all yeah I would agree with that yeah biological women You could argue are

Michael Knowlesreal women but that doesn't mean which which implies that the trans women are not really under the category they're C of biological women and so you just said they're not C of real well you can harp on that my point here is that I think

Farha Khiit's I'm I'm not trying to get you I'm just trying to point out you you the point I'm trying to make is if I'm trying to figure out the answer to this question and the question for me is not what is natural or what is cath Catholicism say it's is this unfair to have trans women compete with real women

Farha Khiwell I want to know and the way to know that is to look at the science not to just look at somebody how do you know what's fair and what's not fair in sports to have an unfair advantage and that you could UNF Things Are you have to compare like right like you

Farha Khiwould have to see okay if you this is why they've banned certain drugs I don't know anything about sports I'm assuming all this I'm just saying how do you know what fairness is we all have I would say that the only way you really know how fairness is is that we all have kind of

Farha Khilike a you know we have a feeling about it that's all I can say is it a feeling or is it is it a reasonable conscience I you can compare averages um You can compare averages yeah but also the hunch

Farha Khithe the even the idea that we all want things to be fair is like an evolutionary in my opinion just thing that we all kind of Michael Phelps is a faster swimmer Michael Phelps is a faster swimmer than some guy we've never

Michael Knowlesheard of he he does he have an unfair advantage over the guy we never heard of they have different average swimming times is the is the average swimming time going to imply something about fairness and Justice no you need something else to to come to a

Michael Knowlesconclusion about Justice and fairness and it's not going to be scientific it's going to be philosophical ultimately philosop quick quick quick last last points go ahead pixie I'm going to say I do think that comparing averages um does give us greater inside what's like

Jasmine Jafarfairness or not so for example um Michael Phelps competing um with other Olympic swimmers is much more fair than Michael Phelps competing against like a completely average swimmer so obviously there's something to be said about

Jasmine Jafarpeople within like the same leagues or performing around the same level and that's why we have like golden versus bronze versus like silver categories well no that that would just be awards for the no but I'm saying like like sorry I should have said division one division two division three sure so

Michael Knowlesyou're saying people who are of the same type it would be fair for the people of the same type to compete against each other but we've already established that trans women and real women are not of the same type so they shouldn't compete against each other that's for about the averages that's why we're also saying

Jasmine Jafarthat when it comes to like hormones or certain supplements um if the theide gets bridged enough then it might open to new discussion or different discussion so if you pum yourself full of enough hormones then the transom who

Jasmine Jafaris not a real woman could become a real woman it's not about being a real woman because as we said before these are not just these are not just matters of the flesh as you stated for um a lot of this is about societal perception of what a

Jasmine Jafarwoman is and that goes back to like certain actions and certain looks so in our day-to-day life that's what we rely we rely the concept of women on actions and looks I I yeah but I I just guess I

Michael Knowleswouldn't trust Society more than I would trust objective truth you know I I I think that uh some 50 million Frenchmen can be wrong I think that actually the the majority of people how do you think

Brian Atlaswhat's the best way to arrive at objective truth I wish we could go there unfortun we are running what's that we'd have five more hours yeah um we do have to uh

Brian Atlaswrap up here pretty soon I do want to give you guys if you want um make a brief final thought or closing statement and uh before you guys do that though do know that we are in about an hour we

Brian Atlaswill be live again uh with our dating talk at about 5:00 P p.m. Pacific but if you guys want I'd like to open it up to uh you guys to make some closing statements if you'd like so ladies first ladies first uh I guess I'll just say

Farha Khiwhat I was going to say yeah what our our principles on fairness are it is a philosophical question but you could say okay the principle here is we want to make sure that nobody has a really big unfair advantage to another person and then you use science and data because

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