Michael Knowles vs. 3 Feminists | Whatever Debates #4

Date: 2024-02-02

Duration: 3h 05m

Guests

Brian Atlas

MMichael Knowles >

JJasmine Jafar >

Identified Speakers

SPEAKER_00TTS/Donations(audience)

SPEAKER_01Pixie(guest)

SPEAKER_02Jasmine Jafar(guest)

SPEAKER_03Farha Khi(guest)

SPEAKER_04Brian Atlas(host)

SPEAKER_05Michael Knowles(guest)

SPEAKER_06Michael Knowles(guest)

Key Moments

QuoteKnowles defines feminism using Gloria Steinem's quote ('a woman needs a man like a fish needs a bicycle') and argues feminism erases female virtue by demanding women act like men.

“feminism is the idea that men and women are not complimentary... it's a false view of human nature and I think it's harmful to everybody and especially harmful to women”

QuoteKnowles cites Simone de Beauvoir vs. Betty Friedan (1975 debate): de Beauvoir argued women cannot be given a choice or most will stay home, so women 'must be forced to be free.'

“there can't be a choice and the reason there can't be a choice is that if given the choice most women would stay at home... women must be forced to be free”

Key MomentKnowles applies Leon Kass's 'wisdom of repugnance' to Pixie's abortion position: if you find it viscerally repulsive, that moral repugnance is itself a rational signal worth reasoning from.

“what you've just articulated is something called the wisdom of repugnance... we don't write a moral treatise on every single thing... most prejudices are right”

QuotePixie (Farha/Pixie) states she is personally pro-life but macro pro-choice, comparing it to being vegetarian her whole life but not forcing it on others.

“on a personal level I'm pro-life I wouldn't get an abortion but on a macro level I'm pro-choice”

ControversyKnowles discovers Pixie has an OnlyFans account despite objecting to men watching pornography. 'I've been strung along so well and now you're going to pull the rug.'

“you have an only fans too yeah she doesn't she are you kidding me I've been oh man I thought you strung me along so well and now you're going to pull the rug”

QuotePixie reveals she has been 'pink-pilled' by experiences with conservative Christian men who claimed to wait until marriage but turned out to be porn addicts.

“I was a virgin all through college I'm still a virgin I do all these things I date these Christian conservatives they talk about waiting till marriage they talk about going to church every Sunday porn addicts all of them”

ControversyKnowles confronts Pixie on the hypocrisy of objecting to men watching porn while producing OnlyFans content: 'You are part of the problem... you are encouraging it and profiting from it.'

“you're the one who's trying to entice these men to look at this stuff and then you're trying to put all of the blame on them... you are part of the problem”

QuoteFarha declines to publicly define what a woman is, saying she needs more research first. Knowles responds: 'Are you joking? That's really your answer?'

“I'd like to do more research on this topic before publicizing an opinion”

ControversyFarha accidentally says 'real women' when referring to biological women during transgender sports debate. Knowles immediately highlights this as an implicit acknowledgment of his position.

“I don't think trans women are men either... I would say they're a part of the umbrella of women... well biological women... real women... well you just accidentally said what we all [think]”

QuotePixie's closing question to Knowles: asks him to clarify whether he stands by his earlier statement that being a 'munch' is morally depraved.

“before the show you said it's morally depraved to be a munch, do you stand by that statement? Oh yeah we were discussing the previous episode I learned a lot of jargon”

Topics Discussed

Introduction and definition of feminism

Brian introduces Michael Knowles (conservative) vs. three feminist debaters: Pixie, Farha Khi, Jasmine Jafar. Opening debate on how to define feminism. Knowles argues feminism erases female virtue by demanding women act like men. Feminists argue for equality of opportunity and choice. Discussion of Gloria Steinem, Simone de Beauvoir vs. Betty Friedan on female choice.

Patriarchy — definition and existence in the West

Brian asks whether they live in a patriarchy. Feminists define it as system where men hold most social/political/economic power. Knowles redefines it as the proper structure of marriage (husband as head as Christ is head of church), says current 'perverted patriarchy' is the problem. Discussion of whether the West is still a patriarchy vs. broader global perspective.

Female happiness, marriage rates, and feminism's effects

Debate on University of Pennsylvania/Yale 2008 'Paradox of Declining Female Happiness' study. Knowles: happiness declining since 1973 despite feminist progress. Feminists: can't isolate cause; better mental health measurement; pre-1970s housewife prescription drug use also high. Knowles: rising antidepressant use (1-in-5 middle-aged women). Discussion of children making people less happy, marriage rate decline (-60%), birth rate decline (-50%).

Religion, Christianity, and founding of America

Debate on whether America was founded as a Christian nation. Knowles argues separation of church and state was not an original founding principle; Bill of Rights didn't apply to states at ratification. Feminists argue First Amendment establishes separation. Discussion of Thomas Jefferson's Bible, Treaty of Tripoli, established state churches. Knowles argues Christianity spread peacefully vs. Islam.

Women's oppression: who is more oppressed?

Brian asks whether women or men are more oppressed. Knowles argues true oppression comes from sin and vice, not patriarchy. Farha prefers 'marginalized' to 'oppressed.' Discussion of divorce rates, marriage law incentives, domestic conflict vs. divorce outcomes for women and children. Debate on whether traditional marriage or liberal divorce law is better for outcomes.

Abortion rights and pro-choice vs. pro-life arguments

Brian introduces abortion as a feminist issue. All three feminists are personally conflicted: Farha: personally pro-life, macro pro-choice. Jasmine: generally pro-choice, doubts late-term morality. Pixie: finds abortion viscerally repulsive but won't prescribe for others (compares to vegetarianism). Knowles: applies 'wisdom of repugnance' (Leon Kass) — moral repugnance is a rational signal. Debate on contraception and abortion rate correlation since Roe v. Wade. Pre-Roe abortion statistics debated (back-alley abortions, Bernard Nathanson statistics).

Male/female differences, academia, and gender roles

Debate on why women outgraduate men in academia. Knowles says academia is declining in quality. Pixie argues God equipped women with rational faculties for more than domestic roles. Discussion of 'greater male variability hypothesis.' Knowles argues for complementarity not identity. Debate on women in STEM, DEI policies and their downstream credentialing effects. Discussion of Phyllis Schlafly as anti-feminist who was also publicly active.

Wage gap and earnings gap debate

Brian raises the 77-cents-to-the-dollar gender wage gap statistic. Jasmine argues gender bias persists even in controlled studies. Knowles argues DEI creates downstream skepticism about qualifications. Cites Clarence Thomas's difficulty getting hired despite Yale Law degree (assumed affirmative action). Brian: Google study found they were underpaying men and overpaying women. Discussion of women's soccer equal pay lawsuit and WNBA vs. NBA pay disparity. Knowles: earnings gap is partly explained by male mating pressure to earn more.

OnlyFans, pornography, and Pixie's hypocrisy debate

Pixie reveals she has a non-nude OnlyFans (started ~1 year before episode). Knowles confronts her: she objects to men watching porn while producing OnlyFans content. Pixie distinguishes: male consumption affects pair bonding neurochemistry; female creation does not. Knowles: she is enticing men to the very behavior she objects to. Pixie: porn objection extends to Instagram models, Hooters, Playboy posters — not just pornography. Discussion of Christian conservative men she dated who were secretly porn addicts. Cohabitation statistics: Pixie argues against pre-marital cohabitation on statistical grounds.

Definition of 'woman' and transgender debate

Brian asks 'what is a woman?' (Matt Walsh reference). Pixie: a person who acts/is perceived as society's conception of a woman. Farha: declines to answer publicly pending more research. Knowles: mocks Farha's non-answer; argues you can't separate soul/identity from body (anti-gnostic). Farha: accidentally says 'real women' when meaning biological women, Knowles highlights this. Debate on transgender athletes in women's sports: whether hormonal adjustment creates fairness. Knowles: fairness in sports requires philosophical judgment, not just scientific comparison of averages.

Closing statements

Farha: principles of fairness are philosophical but informed by science/data. Jasmine: wishes for more discussion on nature vs. nurture; argues laws excluding women historically are evidence of sociological not biological causes for gender gaps. Pixie: asks Knowles to clarify his earlier claim that being a 'munch' is morally depraved. Knowles: closes with Mayflower Cigars plug and argument that pre-feminist family structure was better. Brian wraps; announces Dating Talk #133 in 45 minutes with Michael Knowles continuing.

Transcript

Page 2 of 4

Michael Knowlesbetter than you well perhaps I don't know no I mean the fure I defer to your uh knowledge of your future of Academia is unequivocally female do you deny that I agree that the future of Academia is

Michael KnowlesBleak so if if if you think that implies that women will dominate Academia then you know you said it not me but uh I don't I don't think that the future of anything is female I think the the future of the human race will be the

Jasmine Jafarcomplimentarity of the Sexes and marriages and children or there will be no future of the human race this is something I also wanted to point out to earlier you're saying that like oh people are having less children you know that's a bad thing but I don't know if that's necessarily a bad and the reason

Jasmine Jafarwhy at least from what we see when we compare better developed countries to less developed countries is that yeah people are choosing to have fewer children but they're choosing to invest more in those fewer children so back in agricultural times yeah people had to

Jasmine Jafarhave a lot of children because they had to have those children work work in the farm basically take over chores take over a bunch of stuff so they would have seven or eight children a lot of times malnourished a lot of them died versus now where it's like okay yeah they might

Jasmine Jafarhave one or two children but those children are wellfed they're getting well educated psychatric drugs in the country well do you think that okay I guess here's the other problem earlier on we were talking about like hey you know what things are getting better

Jasmine Jafarmeasured now than before um that's why the whole thing about like oh people are less happy now is not necessarily true do you think like let's say um middle of nowhere country in Africa or something where they're malnourished um have a family of seven do you think those

Jasmine Jafarpeople are happier because they can't report it or they're living technically more of a traditional lifestyle than like somebody in a Nordic country or European country yeah I think the word traditional is doing a lot of work there

Michael Knowlesuh I agree that um you know subsaharan Africa and Oklahoma are different but uh I I don't think it's a totally fair comparison and I agree it's better to be nourished than to be malnourished I

Michael Knowlesagree with that as well but I I don't think that one necessarily needs two uh lawyer incomes and a Tesla and a big screen TV and five iPhones to to uh be able to thrive and flourish I think

Michael Knowleswe've we've become far too materialistic and we we now know the price of everything and the value of nothing so we've got more money than ever but we're all miserable when you cited the data on the two parent houses sorry um but

Farha Khisocioeconomic status and education especially maternal education are big predictors of childhood outcome so how come the data on two two parent households we should follow that but not the one on no I'm I'm fine with women being smart I like when women are smart and well educated you know because

Michael Knowlesthey're because they're raising my children you know well one is raising my children I'm not if I were living in Africa maybe out of five where you deviate from the red pill true but you know it is it is said that The Hand That Rocks the cradle is the hand that rules

Michael Knowlesthe world so when a man chooses a woman to be his wife and to raise his family he is uh entrusting her with his life you know and and and so I don't think he wants her to be a dummy or to be vicious

Farha Khior to be anything like that he would have no incentive to do so but it's better to have fewer kids that you can it seems like provide more for and make sure than to have 10 kids and none of those kids end up being flourishing I think it's good to be open to life you

Michael Knowlesknow I think that one of the big problems in our society is that we're we we've embraced sterility so we're sterile intellectually artistically philosophically and literally we don't have any kids and we exalt as some kind

Michael Knowlesof supposed political right sterile forms of sex so I wouldn't recommend that at all and I think when you get married you're to my earlier Point you're giving yourself wholly over to another person and so you shouldn't

Michael Knowleswithhold anything you know you should be totally open to life for the for the unity of the spous that practical in in modern society I think idealistic View I think I can tell you from experience well you're very toally pral you're very

Michael Knowlessuccessful you're not struggling to feed your kids no I'm not I haven't been totally canceled yet that's true but you I know people who who make less money than I do a lot less money and they've got a million kids and Pi you go ahead and I will shift gears a little bit

Jasmine Jafarafter you go okay I just have some points of clarification quickly so if you believe that people should be like open to life do you believe basically should we have like um Universal child daycare do you believe that we should I

Jasmine Jafarthink we should have mothers and fathers okay um do you not see if you're talking about how women should be more traditional or stay at home more but you agree that our current economic circumstances that necessarily allow for

Jasmine Jafarthat household it seems to me like one potential solution to this would be like hey you know what um better paternal and maternity leave so then that way like the household doesn't suffer the income but the woman can go l i support 18 years of maternity leave I think I

Michael Knowlesforget about 18 months I think it should be 18 years do you believe women should be paid for this for staying in the household you know in principle I'm not opposed to it the problem is it would create so many bad incentives and would be so inefficiently managed by the

Michael Knowlescentral government years you 18 years would be tough but but you know in at to your point in principle look there's one country in the west that has managed to turn around the birth rate problem and they haven't solved it yet but they've ticked it up a little bit in the

Michael Knowlesopposite direction and that's Hungary and the way they did it was they said that once you have four kids you don't have to pay income tax anymore and that's a great way to encourage people to have kids so you know I'm I disagree with that yeah you know like would would I suggest that we just start sending

Michael Knowleschecks for each baby that you pop out uh that's probably an overly simplistic way to do it but should the government which is really an expression of the people in self-government should should we uh encourage and support having families

Jasmine Jafarrather than passing laws that discourage families 100% yeah I I'm for pro family poliy I think we all are did you have more no that I was just trying to see if you agreed with that or not cuz I've met a couple conservatives who are like oh

Michael Knowlesno we shouldn't pass laws like that so yeah well the Libertarians get feisty of anytime you say that we should do anything in politics but uh no I'm I'm fine if as long as it's prudent the the point that you raised at first though

Michael Knowleswould would be terribly wrong which would be to say all right now we've got guaranteed daycare that would only make the problem worse right if we want families to be stronger and we want families to be incentivized to have more children and to raise their own children

Jasmine Jafarsorry I do have one more thing I guess what I don't understand is that earlier you were talking about the community the community is important like Liberals are like too individualized but to me it seems like programs like Universal daycare or such of the matter um do

Jasmine JafarFoster a sense of Community I don't think a child was meant to be raised by just one single person like not even just a mom be raised there's least two people involved I think more I we live a whole society that you know should take

Michael Knowlescare of the children yeah yeah so your Insight is or your inclination is Right which is you know it takes a village much as I dislike Hillary Clinton that phrase itself is not objectionable but

Michael Knowlesit takes a village it doesn't I I don't think it takes a contrived product of some technocracy that creates the you know you know sterile and clinical

Michael Knowlespreschool program daycare program that's not that's not a real organic Community that's that's not a community where people are accountable to one another where people have natural bonds that begin with the family and extend to the uh extended family and then to the

Farha Khineighborhood and to Mrs melotti down the street how would you make because religion has done a really good job at this creating these fostering communities but the bottom line is people just don't believe in it there's a question of it's beneficial and if it's true how are you how what's your plan to convince more people that it's

Michael Knowlestrue and that they should follow because everything is pointing the opposite way we're going the opposite way beneficial means it's good and true means is true and I some people think these are divorced I don't think they're divorced well I I think I hold to an oldfashioned

Michael Knowlesview that there are the three transcendentals which is goodness truth and beauty and that they uh involve one another so something that is good is likely to be true and something that is

Farha Khifalse is likely to be harmful okay so if let's say if transgenderism was shown to be beneficial I know you don't believe that would it then be true I I I'm confident that it won't be shown to be Ben but if it was would you then is that

Michael Knowlesreally you know you're you're asking me if um you know if 2 plus 2 equal 5 would that change my view of mathematics I suppose it would but you know the reason that I'm so confident when every time some protrans activist comes out and

Michael Knowlessays there is a new study that shows the brain scans of Bruce Jenner mean that he's really you know a lady or whatever and then it's it never turns out to be you doing the whole perception is real like if I if it was beneficial to me to Believe In Unicorns does that make

Michael Knowlesunicorns real I don't think it I I guess our disagreement would go back one step even further I don't think it's beneficial to believe in fantasies I think that so that's why people don't like religion I I I agree that you know

Michael Knowlesatheists and liberals have denigrated religion for centuries now but I I don't think it's a fantasy I don't think that it's just a comforting thought neither do transgender like my point is right but they're wrong and I'm right I guess exact what one of us is going to be

Michael Knowlesright what makes you believe that like that Catholic Doctrine is true well I believe to quote the first Vatican Council that the existence of of God I'm not saying all the other stuff but the existence of God can be known with

Jasmine Jafarcertainty by natural human reason from the created world yeah I I'm not I'm not debating about the existence of God I'm saying specifically Catholic doctrine that it goes beyond so if we all if we all agree that God exists and can be known through reason and maybe we're

Michael Knowlesmaking a leap there but you seem at least to Grant it but at least you grant it uh then the question is okay well who is God and here is where Revelation gets involved and uh but re is revelation not just why not the Viking God wait is

Michael Knowlesrevelation not just like the word of somebody else essentially claiming to like have these truths revealed by God it's the word of a great many people played out throughout history so you know for instance the re it was very recently Christmas and so the the

Michael Knowlesrevelation of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ is in the Incarnation and then he lives for 33 years and then suffers a passion is crucified and is resurrected on the third day at least that's how the story goes right well why would I believe that story what what reason do I

Michael Knowleshave to that's a that's a crazy story isn't it people don't just rise from the dead well part of the reason I might believe believe it is because the gospel accounts were all written within living memory a part of the reason I might

Michael Knowlesbelieve this is because 11 men went to their deaths to defend what a fable to defend 11 men just all suffered the same defect of perception one of the reasons I would believe it is it's attested to

Michael Knowlesin non-Christian history uh one of the reasons I might believe this is that there were 500 witnesses to the resurrection so and and then another reason I might witness this we get to your point of the relation between good

Michael Knowlesgoodness and Truth is that that religion spread to the entire world and we haven't even gotten into the other historical coincidences of this and led to a civilization that was extraordinarily powerful flourishing I

Michael Knowlesmean nothing like it has ever existed on the face of the Earth never would again if it were to go away this would all seem to point to at least some little kernel of Truth in that I just okay I

Jasmine Jafarguess final thing and then I will move on um final thoughts on that to me it doesn't necessarily follow that just because like a lot of people believe something it means that there's a colonel of truth to it right I feel like

Jasmine Jafaryeah not necessarily yeah it seems to me that people the same arguments that you used could be used when it comes to like trying to justify Islam for example um that a lot of people have gone and fight and ISL didn't spread peacefully as

Jasmine JafarChristianity yeah fastest growing religion yeah it's still the fastest growing religion right now um but the point that I'm trying to get across is that ultimately it seems like your belief in the Catholic faith and Doctrine goes back to like hey a lot of

Michael Knowlesother people seem to believe this so then that leads to Perhaps Perhaps I misspoke quick response um quick version of it perhaps I misspoke uh my faith in the in the Catholic

Michael Knowlesreligion comes down to the existence of God being knowable through reason and the identification of God with the logos this would be something different in than say in Islam where Allah is totally Transcendent and as iban haam the

Michael Knowlesmedieval Islamic writer said if God so will that he could make people worship idols uh so mine identifies god with reason so it's not just mere hearsay then there is a little bit of hearsay because all these people saw it and believed it and spread it throughout all

Michael Knowlesof the world and the religion was extraordinarily successful and in that spread one final difference I suppose is that with maybe two exceptions Christianity spread peacefully everywhere that it spread the

Michael Knowlestwo the two exceptions would be Charlemagne and I guess the Spanish Inquisition with Islam Islam spread violently everywhere that it spread and so it I'm not even knocking the Muslims I'm just pointing out one was Reliant

Brian Atlaslargely on reason and so it would seem to me that the faith is reasonable okay shifting gears here a little bit kind of back to feminism are women oppressed are

Brian Atlasmen oppressed who is more oppressed and I think let's start with Michael on this and then we'll switch over to you guys go ahead yes women are oppressed uh men

Michael Knowlesare quite oppressed um but what oppresses US is not uh you know like the patriarchy or whatever what what oppresses US is sin and Vice that's what actually does it you you true freedom is

Michael Knowlesnot as the feminists and the liberals who proceeded them would believe the ability to do whatever we wish you know the ability the right to do wrong I don't think there's any right to do wrong I that's why the word is called a

Michael Knowlesright I think that uh Liberty is the U right to do what we ought to do and so I think that uh the truth will set you free and I think that falsehood will

Michael Knowlesenslave you and I think that um the the real oppression we see today is is a result of following our appetites our lower will disconnected from our rational will so you know I go out and

Michael Knowleseat a lot of donuts or I shoot up a bunch of heroin or something and I'm or I or I am addicted to porn or I'm sleeping around with all these women or I'm even forget about porn I'm just indulging my pride on social media and

Michael KnowlesI'm just scroll Doom scrolling all day and not doing any of my work uh th those are oppressions because you can't escape them even when your rational will says uh I've had enough drugs I've eaten enough Donuts I've looked at enough porn

Michael Knowlesyour appetite comes back in and says Ah give me more right and so you you you lose your freedom to quote St Paul the things that I want to do I don't doing the things that I want to do I do so we are oppressed by patriarchy because didn't you Define patriarchy as like male sexual appetite and things like

Michael Knowleshookup no no I I I think patriarchy truly is just um you know the the reflection and the symbol of marriage of the relation between Christ and his church oh because previously you

Michael Knowlesdefined it as things like hookup culture and no no I I said that uh we live in a patriarchy in as much as women are not dominant over men right and so I agree that women are still bearing the brunt

Michael Knowlesof a lot of terrible things but it's a perverted patriarchy were my exact words and so the true one would be the notion that man as the head of woman as Christ as the head of his church which makes a lot of liberal streak these days but uh

Michael Knowlesif the way that um this perverse patriarchy would be practiced today is that uh man is not like the like Christ to his church man is like a little demon in the Garden of Eden tempting Eve so you define current oppression as

Michael Knowlesbasically modernity like things like you said social media Pride gluttony lust no I think I think real oppression really can only come from sin I think that's that I think then the wages of that are

Michael Knowlesdeath and so you know the law can come in and act in a way that is contrary to Justice and that does happen a lot but that doesn't really matter you know you can you can be free in a prison cell the

Michael Knowlesthe problem for us that the far greater threat to our Liberty is is the the lack of ability to control ourselves and to live virtuous flourishing lives and you know you can't just blame some guy on Tik Tok for that you can't just blame a

Pixielaw for that so for oh did you want to respond yeah I guess I had a question um I do want to ask if you think think religion is really good at suppressing that like proclivity for vice and you would probably label something you would probably label something like

Pixiepornography consumption as unequivocally a vice and something that oppresses us then why is it that in states that have the most Evangelical Christians we see the highest subscriptions to things like Playboy only fans PornHub they still

Pixiehave Playboy wholesome I'm just I'm just painting more of a historical progression it went from like obviously Penthouse to Playboy to Hustler to now then to the strip clubs pornography restaurants things like that why is why is is that most rampant in red States

Michael Knowlesspecifically religious red States yeah I don't know I mean I can't speak specifically to Evangelical protestantism because I'm not totally um you know I'm not one and I'm I'm just not as familiar with it I do know that in some of the Protestant denominations

Michael Knowlesthey get a little bit more Loosey Goosey on the sex stuff obviously the lambath uh statement uh permitted U contraception and a little bit weirder sex stuff for some Protestants so I I remain a mackerel snapping papist and I

Michael Knowleskind of believe the oldfashioned way that uh to quote the great philosopher normc Donald sex is a filthy shameful thing that should only be for the purpose of procreation within marriage um and uh so I don't know you know if

Michael Knowlesyou say well in in Utah or something they're looking at porn more and therefore the Mormons are you know Hypocrites okay maybe they're Hypocrites first of all Utah just B effectively banned porn because they they uh forced

Michael Knowlesporn companies to have an an age and then PornHub very tellingly said okay we're not going to do business there anymore because we rely on kids for our business I guess my point is it doesn't seem like religion is a comp telling antidote against the vices that you deem

Pixieto be oppressive if in these states that have the highest populations of religious people you're type of religion Christian why is it that they're indulging in these vices more disproportionately than liberals well again you know I love my Protestant

Michael Knowlesfriends but some of them take a looser view of sexual morality than the Catholics do the Catholics still have a very rigid view so I think you're making a little bit of an apples and oranges comparison yeah and but but furthermore to quote L Ro Fuko again

Michael Knowleshypocrisy is the tribute Vice Pace to virtue and and religion is a public thing so uh we want to pray we can pray individually we can avoid looking at porn individually we can do whatever individually but we're social creatures

Michael Knowlesand so if we live in a community that is more likely to uh put us in the near occasion of sin we're more likely to fall into that you know today porn is everywhere right you can't you can't drive down the street you certainly can't open social media without that and

Michael Knowlesif there's more Temptation everywhere you're more likely to fall into it even if you know it's wrong and so now we point to those people we say Well they're Hypocrites no they're not hypocrites they're human beings who have standard you think they're victims to like just the rampant porn industry yeah I think I think the porn industry

Farha Khicertainly victimizes people do you think porn worsened it more than prior like do you kind of blame the porn industry yeah I think porn industry is awful and should be wied over face can we talk about what consequences you're seeing since the proliferation of porn that makes Society so much worse like yeah

Farha Khitotally yeah well you see uh I mean you know again to go back to all those studies you see a big spike in sexual aggression you see a big spike in wa wait is early 2000 crime is way down well

Michael Knowlesokay just ience and abortion is way down abortion no from the from the early 2000s yeah abortion is unfortunately slightly up even after the the dobs decision though if you go into the state-by-state data

Michael Knowlesbabies still have been saved and it's somewhat complicated but since porn became widely available where what what's worse because you're so what you're saying is because there's porn now people are getting married less they're having fewer babies they're get

Farha Khipregnant L I'm just saying if porn just made society just so catastrophic what are the outcomes you're seeing because it's not violence I think you would say porn is bad as an end in itself right yeah it's intrinsically evil but but

Michael Knowlesalso if you're interested in some you know studies or something and again I don't even really buy studies but uh I think it was 2010 out of the University of Arkansas a survey of the most popular

Michael Knowlesporn not all porn but the most popular porn videos showed 88% uh depicted sexual aggression verbal or physical uh there was a study that came out about 10 years ago out of Denmark that showed

Michael Knowlesthat uh regular porn use increased misogynistic attitudes which I totally agree uh there was another study that came out of I think it was Indiana uh a

Michael Knowlesfew years ago which showed that regular porn consumption was correlated with uh sexual aggressiveness in both men and women which I don't think is a very good thing and then there was another study I

Michael Knowlesforget which state it came out of in like 2015 or 2019 which showed that uh porn use and uh sexual interactions online for for women were a reliable

Michael Knowlespredictor of in real life sexual violence committed against them so again I grant you that you know there's your studies got my stud but there if in as much as you do believe the social scientific data there is a lot of

Jasmine Jafarevidence that porn has had disastrous consequ you had something I think a little bit before this go ahead yeah basically um earlier when you were saying like oh no um people are doing porn or watching pornographic confli uh

Jasmine Jafarcontent more often because they're surrounded by it they can't help it um so even if it comes to a virtuous person if there surrounded they're still going to fall pre to it but to me that doesn't necessarily track and I don't want to be offensive here but the Catholic Church

Jasmine Jafarum especially priests who are supposed to be surrounded by those who are holy um tend to have like some of the highest rates of like child abuse um no they don't I mean there's obviously a child sex abuse crisis it was 20 years ago especially in the Catholic church and

Michael Knowleseven recently if we looked at like the past like 10 years like not but if enough has been done obviously there's uh a lot of media tension on that and it's a terrible problem but if you compare rates of uh child sexual sexual

Michael Knowlesabuse within the Catholic Church to any other religious community among Christians it it's flat it's it's exactly the same as the Protestants among certain Orthodox Jews it's actually significantly lower and then my my favorite statistic here though it's

Michael Knowlesvery dark is that the the rates of sexual abuse from the Catholic Church uh against children is about half the rate as public school teachers against children so you know it's it's all bad but it's not particularly from what I've

Jasmine Jafarseen it hasn't at least from I've seen that's not necessarily true what I've seen is that it's true I can I can promise you okay we'll we'll fact check later or right now actually we could um but one of the specific reasons and I'll Grant you this or Grant this to the

Jasmine JafarCatholic church at least is that the reason why the Catholic church has higher rates of sexual abuse compared to Protestants it's not because Protestants are necessarily doing it less but it's because the Catholic Church keeps yeah investigates it more but even they do

Michael Knowlesinvestigate it a lot I just yeah I think the it depends on which um Protestant group you're comparing it to but uh and and some protest I do want to go to the question for this

Brian Atlasside far pixie and Jasmine are women oppressed are men oppressed who is more oppressed starting with Farah and then we'll come this way kind of like patriarchy I think oppressed is a hefty word I prefer just the term marginalized

Michael Knowlesand I think women are marginalized more than men okay well didn't we just say that women are graduating college at a a higher rate than men like they're more women in college than men depend but didn't we also say that the culture of women move in lock step to male Desires

Michael Knowlesin terms of things like hookup cult and just the culture at large didn't you also admit that I get yeah know I'm I'm I'm not saying women are in a good spot I'm just saying how is it that if women are represent or the majority of the population and they're represented as

Michael Knowlesthe majority in these apparently desirable places such as universities you couldn't say they're marginalized because they're the majority so they're not the margin um I think you could still be othered even if you're a majority if there's a louder minority yes that's why I didn't use the term of

Pixiepress That's why I use marginal do you think men are louder than women 100% they speak more words per minute I mean that's just a fact that's cuz Shapiro brings up the true uh your answer pixie um men and

Jasmine Jafarwomen are both oppressed they're both oppressed in different ways I do not like playing oppression Olympics cuz I think that both you can play I want play they both have very very legitimate

Farha Khireasons to feel oppressed so that's where I stand uh Jasmine what about you yeah I agree with that I think men and women are oppressed but I think if you're looking at who's more oppressed in a society and you're looking at what metric to use I think the male female

Farha Khione is really terrible I think class and privilege and stuff has a way bigger effect on how oppressed you will be rather than your gender um like if I was a guy I think maybe my life would be maybe a little bit worse maybe a little better if I was in a different family it

Michael Knowlescould be different it just depends on so many factors but class I think is a big is much bigger than men versus women that's like the old school leftist view where you focus on class over racial or

Michael Knowlessexual identity you know what's weird though is when you look at um rates of like actually uh depression drug use you would think that it would vary by class I think of the average person on

Michael Knowlesprescription drugs is like a fair upper middle class white lady with maybe one or two kids in the suburb somewhere but it's not there's actually very little difference among all classes we're all

Jasmine Jafarjust depressed and on drugs um I don't know I'd be curious to see um that exact data point because I also know that it's harder for um people like that's like in lower classes to be

Farha Khicovered properly by health insurance and probably like get proper medication in general well the lowest classes are are in Medicaid it's the kind of that lower middle that the opioid crisis isn't affecting people at Yale and lawo it's

Farha Khilike there is a class the cocaine crisis is the co yeah the cocaine people are still highly functioning Good attorneys and whatever on on cocaine you can't really do that as much on fenel but so yeah I think class does affect um

Michael Knowlesespecially the kind of drugs you get addicted to and and all that well and especially to your point on class like the the fact that uh people in the lower socioeconomic classes are much less likely to get married and much more likely to have kids out of wedlock to to

Michael Knowlesme this is one of the most bringing it all the way back this is one of the most evil aspects of feminism is that a lot of the supposed feminists don't really practice what they preach in fact I think a lot of elite liberals don't

Michael Knowlesreally practice what they preach because they're more likely to get married and they're more likely to go to some school and obvious they have less sex as well less casual sex less casual sex and they do so but but the way they talk is they

Michael Knowlessay no man we need total Liberation we need a revolution man whatever you know and then fortunately the it's the lower socioeconomic classes who buy that garbage and they ruin their lives I agree with you there I think we need to

Farha Khido a better job that of explaining to people like like for me I do sex work I don't like tell other I don't advocate for everybody to do that why not because I think you have to have a specific type of temperament for it you have to be

Farha Khiwilling to understand the consequences for it like me it really I thought about my values I thought about who I was and it aligned with that if you're like 18 and you don't know what you're doing I don't know if it's a good option for you to jump into I don't even think it's a good option for you to jump into marriage either you have to think about

Michael Knowleswho you are and who your vales be prepared to be married I thought you were going to say you didn't think it was a good idea for me to jump into sex work would have been very offensive I think you'd be fine I think You' make a lot of

Brian Atlasmoney coup page a couple's page What if Michael nles started like a cigar review only fans I like I was thinking I'd recite Italian poetry on only did you

Michael Knowlesspeak Latin Shir a little bit all right calm down W okay pump the brakes a little bit there do you think you would come to reget doing the not me but I think some people would you don't think

Farha Khithere's a chance you'll come to regret it no why why would I regret it if say you wanted to get married and have kids and you found it harder to I don't think so because I think that I typically like M like for instance I always tell this story like before I didn't have any

Farha Khisocial media before I started only fans and I didn't have and like one guy I was on a date with was like oh I love that because you're not showing off your I just ghosted him like I just I don't like men like that I like men that are have similar values to me where they

Michael Knowlesdon't correlate SE modesty with with morality and that they don't really care do you think that guys who like look at a lot of porn and are very Pro porn and

Farha Khido you think they tend to make better or worse husbands we know that the ones that actually have issues with porn the biggest predictor of that is moral in congruent so Catholics should not watch porn it seems to have really negative impacts on your marriages and lives but

Michael Knowlesif you're not Catholic and you don't have negative attitudes towards porn you are way less likely to have issues with it do you think that if you watch porn a lot you're really into it you're more or less likely to um step out on your

Farha Khimarriage I don't know if there's any data on that well you said a lot so they add in kind of like 90% of men watch porn I don't know if men who watch porn are more likely to cheat I haven't seen anything to indicate that nor would that even be my

Michael Knowlesthe social scientific data that I have seen would suggest that uh regular porn use is associated with all sorts of vices and pathologies and including Infidel marital infidelity and so that would be one thing you wouldn't want you wouldn't want your husband sleeping

Michael Knowlesaround with other women I don't mind if he watches porn and I think a lot of women do but if if what I'm saying is if watching porn made him less virtuous and you know even just the fact that you're trying to cook for the kids right and you're trying to I don't know you're

Michael Knowlestrying to do something and he's just in the bedroom somewhere selfishly doing some that's kind of shameful and you don't brag about it even if you're a I watch porn what am I I'm supposed to tell him you don't do it and I'll do it yeah well no you you neither of you

Michael Knowlesshould do it neither of you should do it that CLI nether you should do it but but you should not let your own personal um

Michael Knowleseccentricities or call it vices uh stop you from recognizing them as vices per se it's it's it's not hypocrisy to have

Michael Knowlesa standard and fail it and I I fear that because we uh today have suggested that it is a lot of people recognize their problems with what they're doing you you know maybe you like porn a lot but there

Michael Knowlesare a lot of people who worked in the porn industry who have had terrible outcomes who they believe the industry they say was just awful and abusive and you know I'm with the sex negative feminists on this I think it's really

Michael Knowlesdegrading to women and um you know another stat 97% of the recipients of of violence and aggression in pornography are women it's usually not the men maybe in some cases that's only fans you should be Pro only fans then because

Michael Knowlesit's it eliminates a lot of that yeah I mean democratizing uh the pornography industry I don't know you know I don't know that that would shrink it which would be my goal but but even shrink the abuse which it has it's the most ethical

Michael Knowlesform it's the most ethical form I don't know ethical porn to me is sort of like a vegan lion you know well you just said like you have to hold yourself to a standard you're you're deciding that standard based on your values and

Michael Knowlesyour religion but I'm coming to my values through reason I guess is what I'm saying I think that people have a conscience I think that uh broadly speaking our our faculties of Reason can tell us that you know we all agree

Michael Knowlesmurder is bad right we all and we just think it's objectively wrong it's not just wrong because we kind of feel it or we've decided it in some social science committee we it's just objectively wrong because there's a Transcendent moral order that's objective and we can reason

Farha Khiabout it so I think we can all um come to certain conclusions then why haven't we why for most history well no murder we pretty much like all and that's an interesting thing even abortion like social attitude has shifted much because murder people are still like this is

Farha Khiwrong but things like casual sex por and sex work which we're a reason is obviously failing maybe we malfunctioned evolutionarily in 2024 yeah no we're falling for sure we have all sorts of people still Mur why is that reason

Michael Knowleswhatever reason you're having why is that not um why is that not spreading why is that not persuasive enough to convince people because we're much less reasonable today than we've been in the past and because in fact a lot of people deny objective truth I mean it would

Michael Knowlesseem you've all accepted my premises that I've just articulated that there is objective truth in a Transcendent moral order and so you know you're you're the creme de la crem I guess but a lot of people if you went onto the street and you said is there such a thing as

Farha Khiobjective truth they would say no there's no such thing as objective there AR but there's good Arguments for that there's good arguments you can even argue that you subjective came to the objective truth of of Catholicism you

Michael Knowlesuse your subjective opinions to follow that no no no an opinion is a statement of fact from one's perspective but it's an statement of objective fact it's not like a preference it's not why are you not Muslim you just didn't find it as compelling you didn't personally find it

Farha Khias compelling right my my you applying my reason to facts I found one to be more reasonable than the other you could find a very uh reasonable Muslim who could say across

Farha Khiand maybe in the future debate you here and they would have to to to give the Muslim Ben Shapiro used his reason to go to that man is not a Muslim that's whatever but he chose he thinks Judaism is the truth so you're all using you're

Michael Knowlesstill it's still a subjective listen Ben's he's a very smart guy but he gets a few things wrong yeah so sure people people disagree and and they uh you know um come to wrong

Michael Knowlesconclusions plenty of times sure but uh you know without U without believing that our reason is somewhat uh reliable then we can't even really communicate unate right I mean there's just no objective reality that we could would

Jasmine Jafareven make this intelligible quick quick thing pixie and we are going to shift gears go ahead I was going to shift gears right now I was going to say um or do you want to what what topic it's

Brian Atlasbiology basically or I'll just say gend Stu let's let's hit one topic but we will come back to that how's that sound um so I think when it comes to uh feminism uh some something that a lot of

Brian Atlasfeminists fight for is abortion rights for women uh so I think I'd like to touch on that for a little bit so a good jumping off point for each of you what is each of your basic stance on abortion

Pixiewe'll have you guys go first then we'll have Michael respond and uh starting with you far go ahead um on a personal level I'm pro-life I wouldn't get an abortion but on a macro level I'm pro-choice okay yeah I have very mixed

Jasmine Jafarum feelings and thoughts when it comes to abortion I am generally speaking pro-choice um do I think abortion at any stage is moral no not necessarily however I do have strong um reservations

Jasmine Jafarabout the government being able to dictate um when exactly or like just deciding like oh like let's have not have any pro-choice pro- lifee all the way I have like very strong reservations of the government being able to dictate

Farha Khium a law to that nature so I have I have a mixed bag right now Jasmine yeah I think abortion is one of the hardest moral issues like it's so unique and I think anyone who thinks it's so easy on the other side just hasn't delved into

Farha Khithis topic enough because there's really good Arguments for both sides I typically hold like what the question is when is that fetus or whatever you're going to call it depending on the stage a person and I think the strongest

Farha Khiargument for me is the Consciousness one so what to to me having a baby like that's alive and something in a Petri dish like I don't see those two things as exactly the same but I do think they're really good arguments it's just

Pixiea really hard topic why would you not have an abortion for your own child but you would uh permit it or even maybe recommend it for others same reason I've been vegetarian my whole life but I don't force it onto others like I have

Pixiemy own personal visceral reaction to certain types of behavior such as you know hunting factory farming and even possibly abortion but that isn't necessarily mean I'm deducing some sort of like moral imperative from that well I should hope if you care about a bunny

Michael Knowlesrabbit and you know you won't eat uh a hamburger then certainly you would care about a human being and it seems like that's the The Logical connection sure but doesn't that then seem to be like

Pixiesaying look I would never murder my precious baby but all you often poor black people you can kill your babies that's just fine no because I I never said I do it because I view it as murder I said it's more of a visceral reaction

Pixieso it's unreasonable you just think it's yucky um yes I found it yucky open the doll's mouth and put a cigar in it but I don't think that's wrong to do me out and I was going to

Michael Knowlesask that was not my idea crit for that I did think it was very funny but I was not my idea uh look I love what you just said it was what a beautifully honest thing you admitted

Pixieyou said I find abortion to be wrong wrong and I didn't say wrong for you wrong for you when we say wrong we're usually moralizing it I just said I found it gross and I had to look away when you open the sex doll's mouth that doesn't mean I think it was wrong

Pixieabortion Boo for her yes you're you're saying I find abortion repulsive and therefore I wouldn't do it even though I can't reason as the process grosses me out I find it gross to use a tampon I don't use one I don't think people shouldn't use it I personally don't want to do I find it invasive I find the

Michael Knowlesprocess you know what I mean certain things to be invasive but that doesn't mean I'm going to prescribe it for everyone or even moralize it what you've just articulated is something called the wisdom of repugnance which is an idea that was elaborated on by the

Michael Knowlesbioethicist Leon Cass about 20 years ago he had a a famous book on this uh we don't write a moral Treatise on every single thing I get out of bed should I have eggs or pancakes so I

Michael Knowlesdon't know let me write a 10 page no you just kind of you just go on your prejudices a lot of the time and I know Prejudice is a really nasty word these days but most prejudices are right you know it's just you can't but sometimes are wrong like slavery some racis but

Pixiethere there were also plenty of people who recognize the moral but that argument doesn't pan out you said I should doce some sort of correctness and morality from my Prejudice but if I just said I enjoy getting abortions like I love the process it gives me pleasure the same way getting a tattoo would you wouldn't then say that that I should

Michael Knowlesmoralize virtually no people would say that what what most women say when they support abortion is exactly what you just said which is well I wouldn't do it but I think it should be a right and so now I think okay I'm glad you've you've said you wouldn't have an abortion and you've arrived at that through Prejudice

Michael Knowlesor however I don't care how you arrive at it but now I think at that point we have to apply reason to this which is okay why do you find it repulsive well because it's invasive well because I don't like stirups well okay fine all those reasons but at a certain point

Michael Knowlesespecially you really seem to care about living things because you don't want to eat animals either okay I I think there's a moral difference between a human being and a cow but what you're recognizing is there's something monstrous there's something morally uh

Michael Knowlessignificant about that's why I use the analogy again of you putting the cigar in the doll's mouth and also grow having a sex doll is morally significant you know I mean I'm glad that she's just being used as my debate partner here to help me so it's not three-on-one but uh

Michael Knowlesyou know if one were to use this sex doll in the way for which it was built that would be depraved and disgusting and uh so frankly having her advertise my cigars is probably one of the most wholesome uses for this right so I personally wouldn't get a tattoo I find

Pixiethat process very repulsive and the idea freaks me out and I would pay to not get a tattoo does that mean I'm moralizing it and I should be you know moralizing that proclivity towards not getting a tattoo and prescribe that other people don't do it like why is abortion why are

Michael Knowlesyou assuming that I'm not getting an abortion for some moral reason no I don't think you're doing it for a moral reason I think you happily have arrived through your own natural tastes and preferences and prejudices at a correct moral conclusion but the the moral

Farha Khiconclusion the reason abortion is wrong is because you're killing a baby you said he a cow why is it different than a cow to you come again why is a human different than a cow because human beings are rational so is a

Michael Knowlesperson less of a person than a non-retarded person no uh all people have defects you know none of us even me none of us is perfect but the the species of human beings the thing that separates us from the animals is that we have will and intellect this is why we

Farha Khidon't if you found out that like cows have it or if you found a person or if you have a person who there's people who have really significant brain defects ETA yeah there are people who have all sorts of disabilities and

Michael Knowlesdefects rality yeah whole um do you believe in contraception I believe it exists but I would strongly discourage it even for married couples who want to like child plan yeah I think couples should be open to life even though I

Jasmine Jafarthink married couples should be open to though there's like an overwhelming amount of data that suggests that contraception lowers like abortion rates basically right if a person never gets pregn think people should have more babies and once they conceive the babies

Michael Knowlesthey should also not murder the babies but I I yeah I don't wait married couple should just every time they have suck should get pregnant or should be aiming towards getting pregnant you know believe it or not it's actually it usually doesn't work quite like that but

Michael KnowlesI think they should have more kids yeah totally and there also by the way there are um uh again it's morally controversial but there are uh modes of a more natural

Michael Knowlesprocess that would be able to quite accurately time a woman until we're at the point where we're getting rid of abortion then are are are you then in favor of contraception I I also reject the premise that you've just made which is that contraception reduces abortion

Michael Knowlesrates I think you know there's a very easy way to cherry-pick those data because you can you know you can say well in this very small subset of data uh where we give uh condoms to college kids or whatever they have lower abortion rates but broadly speaking over

Michael Knowlesthe past 60 years we've had a proliferation of contraception and we've had a proliferation of abortion the rates have spiked and they've lowered it sometimes but they've remained fairly High and the reason is more fundamental

Michael Knowlesthan statistics which is that we have a uh mentality now that sex can come without consequences and so condoms can be very effective and whatever like women put inside themselves and what that can be very effective too but

Michael Knowlessometimes it's not and by accepting the mentality that sterile sex is a right it uh it then implies a right to kill the baby so so you don't actually have to face the consequences when it happens I think I pushed back on the idea that

Jasmine Jafarlike people were not having sex prior to contraception because I never suggested that oh I I thought it was suggested because when you're saying like oh no abortion rates have gone up since contraception I'm not sure if that's they were having kids before

Michael Knowlescontraception and they were also getting abortions before no no I mean you know the other reason why it's I think silly to try to separate these two phenomena is they occurred basically at the same time so you had legal abortion beginning

Michael Knowlesin 1973 with roie way though had been legalized in in other states prior uh this was you know the 1960s 1970s the sexual Revolution when uh contraception became much much much more popular and

Michael Knowlesavailable and abortion did at the same time too so it's simply a fact as contraception became more popular the abortion rate went up now you might say well those are disconnected phenomena okay maybe they are but they certainly occurred at the same time at least to my

Jasmine Jafarunderstanding um and maybe we can even search this up right now um people did have abortions or did have a high rate of of abortion before even like roie Wade what would happen is that they were like more like back alley abortions

Michael Knowlesillegal abortions such abortions that like basically put the mother's life in danger uh no none of that's true they they were having abortions uh it wasn't at a particularly High rate the rate spiked after roie Wade and it is true

Michael Knowlessometimes women died from Back Alley abortions there's a a fake statistic that went around that was cooked up by the abortion industry which said that thousands of women a year were dying of abortions just before roie Wade Dr Bernard Nathanson who was the head of R

Michael Knowlesthe abortion rights League admitted they just made that statistic up out of thin air and it we can fact check it because we have the statistics from the CDC so the year before roie Wade made abortion legal nationally uh do you know how many

Michael Knowleswomen died of back alley abortions um I I was specific number from theine 39 is the number and and do you know how many women died of legal abortions 24 and so almost the same but

Michael Knowlesyou'd say was a little bit higher for the illegal abortions except that if you look at the number of states that had legal abortion versus illegal abortion if you control for that variability it comes out to almost exactly the same number and it was very very low number

Jasmine Jafarso uh you know it wouldn't be a that wouldn't be a recommendation of legal abortion to my understanding right now if we decide to like like take a state or a county where one county has um a greater amount of contraceptive access

Jasmine Jafarpromotes it more um teaches kids about contraceptive use versus a county that there isn't that necessarily same level of sex education the one that has the less amount of sex education contracep access would have higher amounts of

Jasmine Jafarabortion do you dispute that the one that has higher did you say that the one that has higher rates of sex education would have higher rates of abortion no the one that has higher rates of sex education and higher rates of like contraceptive use will have less

Michael Knowlesabortions than the one where there's no sex head basically places that have less sex head have higher well it sort of it depends it depends on if we're talking about a u a community that is uh

Michael Knowlesstrongly discourages contraception and premarital sex and abortion uh that would be uh less likely if uh we're talking about a community that has very low rates of religiosity and low rates

Michael Knowlesof getting married but also low rates of sex education which is just kind of liberal sexual Revolution teaching um then maybe you would have higher rates of abortion there I I don't dispute that at all I mean we live in a culture now

Michael Knowlesthat is broadly um supportive of abortion and of contraception including religious communities but if you you know to use my own group of religious people if you look at Catholics compared

Michael Knowlesto the rest of the country and then if you look at traditional Catholics you know guys who like the Latin mass and smells and bells compared to regular Catholics the rates of divorce plummet

Michael Knowlesthe rates of abortion plummet the rates of contraceptive views plummet the rates of childbirth go through the roof and so I the reason I pick that group out more than the others is they seem to have all

Michael Knowlesof the pieces that I'm talking about here um and whereas others they might have one but not two you know they might have three and uh so there it's it's much harder to compare how do you make people more Catholic well you know I'm doing my best

Michael Knowlesaren't I yeah you are I'm doing my very best if it doesn't work what's your plan be because it seems like no look even Beyond if someone says well Michael I GRE with a lot of what you say but I'm not a Catholic or something okay fine you know I'm just all I'm doing is

Michael Knowlesstating the truth as I see it as as clearly and often as I can and uh you know that led me to certain conclusions I hope it leads them to the same ones

Michael Knowlesbut if if uh people are just if first they recognize that the truth exists and and that we have faculties of reason that can be Noble that's good and if people recognize that we can that there are better things and worse things and

Michael Knowleswe can do better things and worse that's good and if people recognize that having self-discipline is good and will lead to a more happy life then I'm very happy about that and down the line maybe I haven't is that not what people are doing right now like you don't think

Farha Khipeople are you think like you think people like it is the fact that people actually think it is better for the well-being of society to not stick stigmatized like gay marriage they' belied that now you I don't think there's any such thing as gay marriage you know I think it gets back to the

Michael Knowlesfeminist problem which is I think Mar marriage either has sexual difference at the heart of it or it just doesn't mean anything you know it's just another group of people so then why don't you let them get married by the state if

Michael Knowlesit's just doesn't mean anything it's not up to me it marriage either means the union of a man and a woman the complimentary Sexes for the for the good of the spouse is sure and for the creation of children for the creation of

Farha Khia family or it or it's just like your Budd but you said beneficial let's say it's beneficial as a society to recognize those marriages it creates less turmoil whatever is then is it true

Michael Knowlesand is it good let's is it beneficial to recognize a vegan lion you know it's just not real and so we can pretend is it beneficial to pretend that a man is a woman I don't know he might think it is for a short period of time but it's not

Michael KnowlesI mean this is this is one of the problems really with the proliferation of of porn and other uh vices and the drugs and all that stuff is it it causes people to lose perhaps what little control of their reason they previously

Michael Knowleshad I mean this is this is one of the really bad problems about all porn only fans included but obviously the the big industrial stuff too is it appeals most basically to the puran interest the

Michael Knowlesthing that it does is arouses people and I listen none of you are women you're all women I'm not a woman none of you are men I'll speak from the male perspective I think I'm relatively

Farha Khireasonable relatively at least I think I'm in but pretty reasonable pretty reasonable do you think all reasonable people would necessarily come to your conclusions uh yes at least to a lot of

Michael Knowlesthem but I will tell you this if I am in a state of uh you know passionate excitement if uh you know this is why I don't look at these things but if if if a man were to look at those things he

Michael Knowleswould lose control of his reason very very quickly and that's that's degrading even taking the actions outside of it you know to to have an industry out there the purpose of which is to make

Michael Knowlesmen less reasonable and to do things that can be destructive to themselves or to their families or to whatever is is not going to lead to a flourishing Society we all have sex drives that's

Michael Knowlesjust true if you could eliminate sex drives from people no we all have sex I but there's a I'm I'm not say are you reasonable when you're having sex with your wife in that moment I think I am actually I think I'm pretty more reasonable than others in the midst of

Michael Knowlesit you're you're J I think so look I I mentioned Dante before I love Dante in Divine Comedy I'm not saying we should deny our desires or suppress them or you know pretend that we don't we don't have sex drives I got red blood man you know I

Michael Knowlesthink that we need to sublimate our desires to the right ends and to the good place so so you say uh you know if I'm doing the thing that men and women do with each other within the context of marriage am I doing it in a reasonable

Michael Knowlesway I I like to think I am meaning is it open to life is it going to produce children is it um degrading to one partner or the other I hope it's not is it um uh

Farha Khireasonable with uh you're assuming the only reasonable way to uh to I guess procreate yeah or this urge that you have the sexual urge is if you do it in this context yes but that's just your assumption I think no it's the

Michael Knowlesconclusion I've arrived at through reason because I think there are ends to things you know like the end of this delicious Mayflower cigar would be for me to smoke it the end of this uh cup of water but if you use the cup to kill a bug are you misusing the cup you you are

Michael Knowlesmisusing it it it won't kill the bug as well Ian I'm not saying that that's immoral necessarily but but it won't kill the bug as well as it will bring you water and so the purpose of my eyes is to see the purpose of my mouth is to actually to smoke cigars but maybe to

Michael Knowleseat as a secondary purpose and the purpose of my sexual my my sexuality is Finds Its expression in procreation which is not going to happen between a couple of fellas or you know three dudes in a billy goat it's going to happen

Michael Knowleswithin the context of marriage speaking of the cup do you need a refill you know I could you're too kind my dear thank you I feel very patriarchal kind um I do have a question for you I just want to find out what the threshold is obviously

Pixieyou morally condemn porn and I guess I want to know from like your tradcon perview do you also condemn strip clubs Pro obviously prostitutes brothel um Playboy magazine Victoria Secret especially play fashion shows what about

Pixiewell Victoria Secret fashion shows now feature like dudes and you know plastic bags so I don't I don't even know if that's traditional like vs Angel shows do you condemn because I guess I get annoyed when people just morally burden porn stars and I feel like it's just because of the financial component but

Pixiethen they're still like I said going going to Hooters all the time and I feel like a lot of conservatives especially tradcons are okay with you know what I mean lusting after women in those settings I'm very opposed to lusting after women and I think it's tant them out to adultery so you would morally

Michael Knowlescondemn Hooters and Victoria Secret fashion shows and those I mean again the there are different obviously these are differences of degrees so Hooters you know it's women wearing like tight clothing and giving you chicken wings and I'm not saying it's ideal I wouldn't

Michael Knowlesrecommend having Christmas dinner there but uh you know I I think it's far less objectionable than say going to a strip club or going to the the red light district or looking at pornography you know the thing about pornography that's

Michael Knowlesthat's really in particularly bad about this too is it's so unnatural so you know and on the one hand you'd say well it's better to look at porn than to cheat on your wife wouldn't recommend doing either but porn is even more

Michael Knowlesunnatural because there's not even another person involved you know it's just glittering images on a screen and then you're doing a shameful act with yourself if you were watching it with your partner and there is data out there that that actually a lot of people report watching porn together actually

Farha Khimakes their sex ual relationship better and they report higher sexual satisfaction in that context do you think it's okay or is it just immoral for you because you're a Catholic no I I think the reason that it's bad is one it would turn your sexual desire to another

Michael Knowleswoman and it would view it would cause you to view women as sexual objects rather than as proper subjects and I think uh one of the other problems with porn that shapes the way you would view all women including your wife is that it

Michael Knowlesit treats people as Commodities so it what it does is it causes you to sell yourself as though you were just merely flesh you know for the for the irrational excitement of some some other person and that is intrinsically

Pixiedegrading because you're a rational creature with a with a mind and a that's why I think only fans is the best iteration of sex work because sex work as they say is the world's like oldest profession it's never going away like even in 2005 which is over 10 years before the Advent of only fans 16% of

PixieAmerican men were buying sex and over half of them were doing it regularly from prostitutes so I don't like that we blame porn when sex work has always been a thing even a lot of Christian men will go to the strip club like a week before getting married and that's considered like traditionally acceptable exactly and I feel like only fans is the

Pixiehealthiest iteration even by your characterization because it reinstates the soul because the biggest only fan stars are famous for their personality people like amarinth Bel deline Bella Thorne it reinstates that personality so I feel like it's actually reducing this idea of only lusting after a woman for

Michael Knowlesher flesh it's actually thre dimensionalizing her again so do you think only but it still it still reduces the relation of the Sexes to a mere monetary transaction and it and it commoditized the woman because she's the product so I mean isn't that capitalism

Farha Khithough like when you have a cashier aren't you like object there are problems with capitalism the cashier scenario I don't think is a a great if you're using when someone the mechanic is working on your car you're not like super interested in his

Farha Khithoughts and feelings you're using him as a means to so what's what is so bad about sexual objectification when we objectify celebrities athletes all these because the mechanic is performing a

Michael Knowlesrational and edifying action for me that uh benefits the two of us um a prostitute say is turning herself into a

Michael Knowlesmere instrument for my own lower pleasure so you know I totally agree with you that prostitution has been around forever and there have actually been moral arguments including from St

Michael KnowlesAugustine and St Thomas aquinus against uh prohibiting this as a matter of law too aggressively because you might one might say that then society would be convulsed by lust so you you have to

Michael Knowlesstrongly uh circumscribe it but not totally get rid of it and I don't know what so you're Pro only fans I'm not pro only the the uh but you think it's the healthiest iteration or the I mean you're asking me what's the least dangerous arsenic you know I I don't

Pixieknow I guess there's some diluted form of it but they're all they're all deadly they're all going to get you I guess I just didn't like this argument that the reason uh prostitution or pornography is worse than maybe like a Hooters is because it's reducing people you said to like glitter glittering the woman at

PixieHooters is having a nice conversation with me and bringing me my chicken and she's not actually stripping down and she's not actually performing sexual act I find that more immoral I feel like that's the more reductionist flesh version of sex work because she has to more perform of role versus if you're

Pixiesubscribing to a twitch stream or who already you like it's based off her personality like she sets the rule she sets the personality she sets the interaction audience sets the rules really and no they're subscribing more for her personality and Hooters it's already a predetermined role in uniform

Michael Knowlesand costuming that they're assuming I suspect if you talk to the top earning performers on only fans they would tell you that the customer is always right they' tell you the same thing that the cashier and the waitress would that's not true I have very strict

Michael Knowlesboundaries I make the rules and you don't you don't take into consideration the desires of your audience I don't believe that I mean so do you think you're commodifying yourself to the day like when you're on doing your show but the thing that I'm selling is my opinions about the world I do like

Michael Knowlesphilosophy live streams naked well I I then half of that is probably a good idea but but the the pro you know the problem with uh doing it naked is it's kind of cheating isn't it it's cheating because you're you're uh attracting

Farha Khieyeballs with something that is um you know irrational and then maybe you're giving them some philosophy they don't have to be completely separate at all times like even in marriage like when you're horny you're not at that moment like having this deep conversation and

Farha Khiyou're so interested in their thought like you have an like you can channel that in a healthy way so something that I found is a lot of men when they would see me speak and they're like I really like what you say but now it's hard to jerk off to you because I have this

Farha Khiweird thing but then once they like get exposed to it and now they're like oh actually it's really cool I love it like you know we might have this inclination to see people in these categories these categories but that it

Michael Knowlesdoesn't mean that just because you're a sexual object in this context that you are in every context yeah I guess it's just uh if you're I think they probably make a good point which is I have viewed

Michael Knowlesyou in this degraded way and now I'm I'm surprised to see you in a different way and that's why it's important to expose them to that cuz that's perhaps but even the way you're you're talking about sexual desire still seems to be very self-regarding right you're saying if

Michael Knowlesyou want to sleep with your wife it's CU you're Randy or something but that you know that that would be the difference between say love and sex I think I forget who wrote this maybe it was Chesterton or Lewis or one of these guys

Michael Knowlesuh the you know sex is oh no it's fton Sheen actually the Archbishop and former TV star uh sex is totally self-regarding so uh when one looks at porn it's to gratify one's own lusts when one is

Michael Knowlesmarried and or just even in love one is willing the good of the other person and so you you can this is not just Pie in the Sky Mambi pami stuff that the the

Michael Knowlesresult of self-regarding sex Solo or with other people is sterility and the um instrument mization of other people for your own desires the the end result

Michael Knowlesof love which is giving to the other person is to edify the spouse but it literally becomes so real that another person is created as a result of it pixie go ahead this doesn't have to do with the porn usage but I just want to

Jasmine JafarCircle back to something that's just been stuck on my mind um earlier you were talking about basically like these kind of biological imperatives that like women and men have naturally Fallen to and then um basically feminism is like trying to destroy that that's like my

Jasmine Jafarunderstanding of your argument but I don't think it's just biological cuz I think we're just bodies and flesh I think we're also Souls souls and bodies together okay cuz what I was going to say is that when people make like these biological arguments of men having to be this one way and women having to be this

Jasmine Jafarother way to me that doesn't necessarily follow because like we've literally had laws after law and place trying to prevent women from getting into the workforce from having um being able to

Jasmine Jafaropen a bank account from even being able to pursue certain legal matters so when people make this biological argument of like oh no you know men are just more naturally inclined towards working roles it would follow then that there would be no need for these laws it would just be

Jasmine Jafara biological imperative there's no need for you to have a law where you know blood flows through you or where you have a heart these are just things that are true but when it comes to our roles in society and I think this is what feminist pushed back on it seems like

Jasmine Jafarinstead of it being a real biological imperative it is forced upon the social structure yeah I are you suggesting that women are as happy working in an office as a man is um they could be depends on the woman hypothetically I guess they

Michael Knowlescould be but do you think talking to your female friends and looking at what social scientific data there are you really think women are as satisfied and happy in office work definitely just saying in the aggregate yeah I think if you're really being honest with me right now I think you would say probably women

Jasmine Jafarare less happy I don't think either of them are happy which is happier than well what I think is interesting about this argument is that we do have like a clear period of time where hey

Jasmine Jafaryou know women had were staying at home whatever then when the men went out to war they went towards these jobs and when the men came back they didn't want to leave so to me to be saying like oh no like you know they're all in general

Michael Knowleshappier at home well we had a clear period of time where wom expressly against that no we did and then we we as I mentioned earlier we measured against it and we measured how it turned out and all but one of the surveys showed that

Michael Knowlesthe women became less happy so I I'm I'm totally willing to take these surveys with a grain of salt but in as much as we can measure them they undercut your argument no there was a survey that showed that men are happier are just sitting on their ass all day on like

Michael Knowlessome Island watching TV in do you think that they should strive towards that uh no cuz they wouldn't be happier in the long term because happiness is an objective matter it's not purely um subjective so uh like men though truly

Michael Knowlesthis is why Genesis 3 is written the way that it is men do not want to Lord over women they don't want to dominate women they don't want to be knuckle drags you know what men want to do they want to sit on the couch and eat potato chips and be left alone that's what men that that's the broken dark I'm just saying I

Pixiethink everyone would be happier in the short term sitting at home on a couch which is why I think those studies to self-reported happiness refers to that I think women would be happier in the short term playing the girl boss and having all sorts of you know colorcoded

Michael Knowlesnotebooks and Pen pens and stuff but they would find that they don't actually like it they don't really want to work at the law firm they don't really want to be in the widget Factory they they would rather do something that is more naturally feminine I think it's also interesting how you're ascribing these

Jasmine Jafarsurveys of like self-reported happiness going lower as a result of in the being in the workplace when I wonder if you start um yeah because yeah exactly I wonder if when you start um looking down into the specific reasons why a person

Jasmine Jafarmight report greater amounts of unhappiness um I'm sure there's a lot of reasons I could range right so for example they're all feminists high you're like let's say experiencing like some sort of like sexual harassment in the workplace for

Michael Knowlesexample which in that case it's not necessarily oh they're less happy doing work they're just less happy experiencing sexual harassment for example days I'm not saying it never happens because obviously you know you hear some me too stories Matt La whatever you know Vince McMahon I'm not

Michael Knowlessaying it it doesn't happen but these days the law and the culture are so radically opposed to men and in favor of women in the situation the um frequency

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