Michael Knowles vs. 3 Feminists | Whatever Debates #4

Date: 2024-02-02

Duration: 3h 05m

Guests

Brian Atlas

MMichael Knowles >

JJasmine Jafar >

Identified Speakers

SPEAKER_00TTS/Donations(audience)

SPEAKER_01Pixie(guest)

SPEAKER_02Jasmine Jafar(guest)

SPEAKER_03Farha Khi(guest)

SPEAKER_04Brian Atlas(host)

SPEAKER_05Michael Knowles(guest)

SPEAKER_06Michael Knowles(guest)

Key Moments

QuoteKnowles defines feminism using Gloria Steinem's quote ('a woman needs a man like a fish needs a bicycle') and argues feminism erases female virtue by demanding women act like men.

“feminism is the idea that men and women are not complimentary... it's a false view of human nature and I think it's harmful to everybody and especially harmful to women”

QuoteKnowles cites Simone de Beauvoir vs. Betty Friedan (1975 debate): de Beauvoir argued women cannot be given a choice or most will stay home, so women 'must be forced to be free.'

“there can't be a choice and the reason there can't be a choice is that if given the choice most women would stay at home... women must be forced to be free”

Key MomentKnowles applies Leon Kass's 'wisdom of repugnance' to Pixie's abortion position: if you find it viscerally repulsive, that moral repugnance is itself a rational signal worth reasoning from.

“what you've just articulated is something called the wisdom of repugnance... we don't write a moral treatise on every single thing... most prejudices are right”

QuotePixie (Farha/Pixie) states she is personally pro-life but macro pro-choice, comparing it to being vegetarian her whole life but not forcing it on others.

“on a personal level I'm pro-life I wouldn't get an abortion but on a macro level I'm pro-choice”

ControversyKnowles discovers Pixie has an OnlyFans account despite objecting to men watching pornography. 'I've been strung along so well and now you're going to pull the rug.'

“you have an only fans too yeah she doesn't she are you kidding me I've been oh man I thought you strung me along so well and now you're going to pull the rug”

QuotePixie reveals she has been 'pink-pilled' by experiences with conservative Christian men who claimed to wait until marriage but turned out to be porn addicts.

“I was a virgin all through college I'm still a virgin I do all these things I date these Christian conservatives they talk about waiting till marriage they talk about going to church every Sunday porn addicts all of them”

ControversyKnowles confronts Pixie on the hypocrisy of objecting to men watching porn while producing OnlyFans content: 'You are part of the problem... you are encouraging it and profiting from it.'

“you're the one who's trying to entice these men to look at this stuff and then you're trying to put all of the blame on them... you are part of the problem”

QuoteFarha declines to publicly define what a woman is, saying she needs more research first. Knowles responds: 'Are you joking? That's really your answer?'

“I'd like to do more research on this topic before publicizing an opinion”

ControversyFarha accidentally says 'real women' when referring to biological women during transgender sports debate. Knowles immediately highlights this as an implicit acknowledgment of his position.

“I don't think trans women are men either... I would say they're a part of the umbrella of women... well biological women... real women... well you just accidentally said what we all [think]”

QuotePixie's closing question to Knowles: asks him to clarify whether he stands by his earlier statement that being a 'munch' is morally depraved.

“before the show you said it's morally depraved to be a munch, do you stand by that statement? Oh yeah we were discussing the previous episode I learned a lot of jargon”

Topics Discussed

Introduction and definition of feminism

Brian introduces Michael Knowles (conservative) vs. three feminist debaters: Pixie, Farha Khi, Jasmine Jafar. Opening debate on how to define feminism. Knowles argues feminism erases female virtue by demanding women act like men. Feminists argue for equality of opportunity and choice. Discussion of Gloria Steinem, Simone de Beauvoir vs. Betty Friedan on female choice.

Patriarchy — definition and existence in the West

Brian asks whether they live in a patriarchy. Feminists define it as system where men hold most social/political/economic power. Knowles redefines it as the proper structure of marriage (husband as head as Christ is head of church), says current 'perverted patriarchy' is the problem. Discussion of whether the West is still a patriarchy vs. broader global perspective.

Female happiness, marriage rates, and feminism's effects

Debate on University of Pennsylvania/Yale 2008 'Paradox of Declining Female Happiness' study. Knowles: happiness declining since 1973 despite feminist progress. Feminists: can't isolate cause; better mental health measurement; pre-1970s housewife prescription drug use also high. Knowles: rising antidepressant use (1-in-5 middle-aged women). Discussion of children making people less happy, marriage rate decline (-60%), birth rate decline (-50%).

Religion, Christianity, and founding of America

Debate on whether America was founded as a Christian nation. Knowles argues separation of church and state was not an original founding principle; Bill of Rights didn't apply to states at ratification. Feminists argue First Amendment establishes separation. Discussion of Thomas Jefferson's Bible, Treaty of Tripoli, established state churches. Knowles argues Christianity spread peacefully vs. Islam.

Women's oppression: who is more oppressed?

Brian asks whether women or men are more oppressed. Knowles argues true oppression comes from sin and vice, not patriarchy. Farha prefers 'marginalized' to 'oppressed.' Discussion of divorce rates, marriage law incentives, domestic conflict vs. divorce outcomes for women and children. Debate on whether traditional marriage or liberal divorce law is better for outcomes.

Abortion rights and pro-choice vs. pro-life arguments

Brian introduces abortion as a feminist issue. All three feminists are personally conflicted: Farha: personally pro-life, macro pro-choice. Jasmine: generally pro-choice, doubts late-term morality. Pixie: finds abortion viscerally repulsive but won't prescribe for others (compares to vegetarianism). Knowles: applies 'wisdom of repugnance' (Leon Kass) — moral repugnance is a rational signal. Debate on contraception and abortion rate correlation since Roe v. Wade. Pre-Roe abortion statistics debated (back-alley abortions, Bernard Nathanson statistics).

Male/female differences, academia, and gender roles

Debate on why women outgraduate men in academia. Knowles says academia is declining in quality. Pixie argues God equipped women with rational faculties for more than domestic roles. Discussion of 'greater male variability hypothesis.' Knowles argues for complementarity not identity. Debate on women in STEM, DEI policies and their downstream credentialing effects. Discussion of Phyllis Schlafly as anti-feminist who was also publicly active.

Wage gap and earnings gap debate

Brian raises the 77-cents-to-the-dollar gender wage gap statistic. Jasmine argues gender bias persists even in controlled studies. Knowles argues DEI creates downstream skepticism about qualifications. Cites Clarence Thomas's difficulty getting hired despite Yale Law degree (assumed affirmative action). Brian: Google study found they were underpaying men and overpaying women. Discussion of women's soccer equal pay lawsuit and WNBA vs. NBA pay disparity. Knowles: earnings gap is partly explained by male mating pressure to earn more.

OnlyFans, pornography, and Pixie's hypocrisy debate

Pixie reveals she has a non-nude OnlyFans (started ~1 year before episode). Knowles confronts her: she objects to men watching porn while producing OnlyFans content. Pixie distinguishes: male consumption affects pair bonding neurochemistry; female creation does not. Knowles: she is enticing men to the very behavior she objects to. Pixie: porn objection extends to Instagram models, Hooters, Playboy posters — not just pornography. Discussion of Christian conservative men she dated who were secretly porn addicts. Cohabitation statistics: Pixie argues against pre-marital cohabitation on statistical grounds.

Definition of 'woman' and transgender debate

Brian asks 'what is a woman?' (Matt Walsh reference). Pixie: a person who acts/is perceived as society's conception of a woman. Farha: declines to answer publicly pending more research. Knowles: mocks Farha's non-answer; argues you can't separate soul/identity from body (anti-gnostic). Farha: accidentally says 'real women' when meaning biological women, Knowles highlights this. Debate on transgender athletes in women's sports: whether hormonal adjustment creates fairness. Knowles: fairness in sports requires philosophical judgment, not just scientific comparison of averages.

Closing statements

Farha: principles of fairness are philosophical but informed by science/data. Jasmine: wishes for more discussion on nature vs. nurture; argues laws excluding women historically are evidence of sociological not biological causes for gender gaps. Pixie: asks Knowles to clarify his earlier claim that being a 'munch' is morally depraved. Knowles: closes with Mayflower Cigars plug and argument that pre-feminist family structure was better. Brian wraps; announces Dating Talk #133 in 45 minutes with Michael Knowles continuing.

Transcript

Page 1 of 4

Brian Atlaswelcome to a special debate edition of the whatever podcast coming to you live from Santa Barbara California I'm your host and moderator Brian Atlas a few quick announcements before the show begins this podcast say viewer supported

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Brian Atlasdescription uh if the TTS we do have TTS here if it's too disruptive we may either delay it or boost it just for the sake of a smooth stream and debate please see the description for all

Brian Atlastriggers in full details without further Ado I'm joined today by Michael nolles he is a conservative political commentator actor thespian author rap critic music critic and media host

Brian Atlashe graduated with a ba in history in Italian from Yale University he is the host of the Michael N show at the daily wire welcome Michael thank you for having me good to be back good good to

Brian Atlashave you back his feminist debate opponents are we have Jasmine Jafar the self-described her words not mine her lawyer 304 lawyer excuse me 304 lawyer

Brian Atlasshe received her JD and has a bachelor's in psychology she also does porn and only fans I do hence oh have you ever litigated while could you like doing a I

Brian Atlascan I still have my license but there's no reason I make money she's uh joined by farha khi she is an online content creator she received a bachelor's degree

Brian Atlasin English and pixie as she goes online she graduated from University of Florida with a triple Major getting her BS in Psychology and a ba in philosophy and

Brian Atlaseconomics so uh this is is sort of a sort of generalized debate here we're having uh we have Michael nlls here conservative versus I I if you guys want

Brian Atlasto uh articulate your political leanings uh feel free maybe one by one but I suspect you're both you're all uh excuse me you're all Progressive left leaning liberal leaning

Farha Khiyeah depends on the issue but I would say Center left to left on most things okay yeah I generally consider myself a progressive overall okay and do you all consider yourselves

Brian Atlasfeminists depending on the definition I hope none of you bamboozled me here okay so um so I think a good jumping off point here and I think we'll start with you guys and then we'll have Michael

Farha Khirespond what is feminism um I think the the most common definition is the social political and economic equality between the Sexes so according to that definition I would

Jasmine Jafardefinitely identify as a feminist okay yeah in general I agree with that definition I believe that we should not be discriminated unfairly on the basis of sex if I had to add any addition to feminism I would agree with all that and

Pixiethen I would also add on just kind of adding more cultural currency to just female spaces women's interests and just women's proclivities in general that last if that's what it were but I don't

Michael KnowlesI actually think feminism does the opposite of that in practice and frankly going all the way back to the beginning of feminism in the 18th century probably my definition of feminism would be Gloria steam's definition she was the very famous feminist of the second wave

Michael Knowleswhich is that a woman needs a man like a fish needs a bicycle feminism is the idea that men and women are not complimentary they're not different and helpful to one another but they're identical and IND discernible that there

Michael Knowlesyou know there are some superficial differences you ladies might be a little prettier perhaps than I am but all in all we're basically exactly the same and I I don't think that's true I think it's a false view of human nature and I think

Pixieit's harmful to everybody and especially harmful to women right I've worked with GL steam's company wom women's media sent for like four years back my condolences and obviously that's like a more crass interpretation of I think

Pixiewhat she meant by that which I think is more so she's more so um characterizing the fact that women in general when they're taught how to self-actualize it's typically tied to contingency on a man and getting married and starting a

Pixiefamily versus men when they're told um the ways to self-actualize it doesn't necessarily require a woman so obviously her saying a woman needs a man the way a fish needs a bicycle sounds crass and like she's being a bit bit meandrous and obviously some radical interpretations

Pixiemay take it that way but I think what she's trying to say is that women you can like Define yourself in your career and your potential outside of Simply marriage and children what do you mean by the phrase self actualize um just like live up to your potential you know

Michael Knowlesuse your rational faculties you know use the design of your potential in your brain I agree that I want to live up to my Highest Potential I want women to live up to their Highest Potential I want Total human flourishing but I think

Michael Knowlesyou've given away the game on the radical and liberal Foundation of feminism which is the notion that it comes purely from the self it's a matter of self- Liberation that that I can do totally self-sufficiently as if I were an island

Michael Knowlesunto myself but no man is an island unto himself and so I didn't make myself I uh didn't create the family that I was born into I didn't create the community that I was born into the country that I was born into I take the opposite view of the liberal view the Liberals say that

Michael Knowlesman is fundamentally an individual the conservatives would say no man is a social creature you know man is a political animal and so the irony I think of someone like a glorious dyam saying that we we or insinuating that we

Michael Knowlesjust want women to live up to their fullest potential is that the the way that she and the feminists have done it is to totally erase women and I think this goes back way further than the second wave you sometimes hear

Michael Knowlesconservatives the squishy kind they say we love the feminism but only the you know the second wave not the third wave or we like the first wave not the second whatever we're on like the 10th wave now but it's been a problem from the

Michael Knowlesbeginning even Mary walstone craft who who founds feminism with the Vindication of the rights of wom she writes that uh

Michael KnowlesProvidence has created men in such a way that they are um more inclined to Virtue and they're more endowed with virtue and I think that's exactly what Gloria steum

Michael Knowlesthinks because the the way that second wave feminism actually was practiced was it denied the virtues particular to women and it said the only way to be virtuous and to flourish is to be a man

Michael Knowlesso if women want to be virtuous and flourish they got to dress like men and they got to have the same attitudes towards sex as men and they got to work in the workplace exactly as men do and they just have to pretend to be men but

Michael KnowlesI think that's very uh disrespectful to women and harmful to them because if a woman tries to be a man she's always going to fail just look at the pen swim team now when when the men compat against the women swimmers and and defeat them this is why some feminists

Michael Knowleswisely are turning against the transgender ideology I think women are great and women have a wonderful nature and when women are fully women they can really flourish and when they pretend to be men they get miserable I think um

Jasmine Jafarwhat a lot of feminists would push back on or worry about is this idea that we have ascribed gender to certain things are kind of agendered so for example when it comes to the workplace um the idea that like oh no women must stay at

Jasmine Jafarhome going out and working is a man's job seems to be something that a lot of people have contention with because it seems like I'm not saying that women don't have a place at home taking care of children but it doesn't seem like it

Jasmine Jafarshould necessarily be limited to just that so for example um even like throughout history you still have women who despite taking care of home also have like side jobs or side hustles or stuff like that to help contribute to

Jasmine Jafarthe family so I think this whole idea that's like oh no like women are just trying to be men sometimes I wonder oh no we are just saying that this is for a man to do even though it seems like there's more opportunity for women to participate in those Arenas as well I

Michael Knowlesthink you've just made my point though which is that you say throughout history including long before feminism ever came onto the scene women did plenty of things you know in addition to just being barefoot and pregnant in the kitchen right they had uh they were

Michael Knowlesinvolved in their Community they had side hustles as you put it um so so they did all these things I mean I think of the most famous anti-feminist American of the 20th century it was phy Schley phy Schley had six kids she was a

Michael Knowleshousewife she uh said The only person whose permission she needs for her political activism is her husbands which irritated to no end she's one of the most important political figures of the whole Century she single-handedly killed the Equal Rights Amendment traveled all

Michael Knowlesover the country one of the most vaunted figures in the American right uh she she was able to do a lot of things in public but she recognized that her particular role that her husband never could have

Michael Knowlesthat no man on Earth ever could have even if he kids himself is to have children to be a woman to be graceful to to do the things that men can't do

Michael Knowlesand so she can do she can do things beyond that as well but uh if if you erase the particular advantages of women the women are are put at a disadvantage I mean the problem is women were also excluded from doing a lot of things so I

Farha Khidon't think anyone here thinks there are no differences between men and women but there's a lot of overlap as well and while men and women may be different on something on average to look at a woman like I think you're you and some of your other conservatives are Under Fire for

Michael Knowlessaying oh if it's a female pilot I'm automatically going to assume that this person is incompetent never said that though if if an airline tells me that they are prioritizing Dei over uh Merit in the cockpit I would probably book

Farha Khianother airl okay and that's I guess that's a little I get what you're I get that but my point is like to say women are just emotional more emotional than men that may be true on average but to then look at a woman and just be like automatically I'm going to assume this

Farha Khiwoman is more emotional I think that isn't that the last so why is it true on average though it may be true on average because we're different I've never said we're not different but the problem is to say we're different and then put us into categories and be like there can be no out overlap women have to do this

Michael Knowlesrole and men have to do this role that's I think what feminism is pushing back on what you're arguing for is a kind of feminism that says actually uh all the differences between men and women that's

Michael Knowlestotally true in the aggregate there you know in these two different types but on rare occasion there's going to be some wom that rare like let's say like okay gender roles like let's say most people like let's say 70 to 80% of people will

Farha Khifall into natural gender roles but then there's still 20% of our population that may not do we make a society where we force that 20% into these roles or do we allow choice I think a lot of feminism the Cornerstone feminism is choice for

Michael Knowleswomen you can't St I'm not so sure about that I'm not so sure because there was a famous debate between Betty fedan Who was the prominent American feminist and Simone deovir one of the most famous feminists of the 20th century it was in

Michael Knowles1975 and Betty freedan said what you said she said look I think we should give women a choice to maybe they want to go out into the workplace or maybe they want to stay home and raise their kids but they should have a choice and and Simone deoir who was a more

Michael Knowlesconsistent and intelligent feminist said there can't be a choice and the reason there can't be a choice is that if given the choice most women would stay at home and if most women stay at home women

Michael Knowleswill not be free if we want true women's Liberation women must be forced to be free and fedan recoiled from this because she knew it wasn't going to play well in Peoria but Simone deovir had had the right point and I think that the

Farha Khimore consistent feminists have agreed with her I don't know I mean feminism has like it's gone so many different directions so to pick the feminist that we don't agree with for this debate I don't know if that's conducive to also

Jasmine JafarI'm not necessarily sure when you're saying like oh no um most women would stay at home that's a choice that they would have because when you look at like the uprisings of like feminism or when they gained the most traction it was postwar Era um partly because of the

Jasmine Jafarreason why is because during these War eras men went out they were a drafted they had to go fight etc etc women were expected to take up more um traditional male spaces work and when the men came back yeah um what ended up happening is

Jasmine Jafarthat a lot of women did not want to leave the jobs that they had they wanted to keep um the somewhat level of financial Independence that they were able to gain and that's why we see like these huge like feminist uprisings during those periods of time so it seems to me if you're saying that most women

Michael Knowleswould stay home um that just wouldn't happen like women would have not had like these feminist movements go forward well the the feminists didn't want to leave their jobs but women broadly perhaps did so anecdotally people write in a lot and they tell me Michael you

Michael Knowlesknow i' at least while my kids are little I'd love to stay home and raise them maybe I'll go back to work after but I just can't it's you can't raise a family in America for the average person today on one income and that's a result of women entering the workforce and

Michael Knowleswages decrease which is why not only the radical left but also the more um commercially minded right-wing was in favor of that it's the same reason they're in favor of mass migration it just lowers wages for people uh a lot of

Michael Knowleswomen however seem to feel not that they have the choice to to go to work but that they have to and this is expressed in a famous study that came out of upen and was published by Yale in 2008 which was the Paradox of declining female

Michael Knowleshappiness and I love the way the study opens up right in the abstract it says despite the past 35 years I'm paraphrasing but despite the past 35 years showing so much marked progress

Michael Knowlesand Improvement in the lives of women women's happiness according to this meta analysis has declined both absolutely and relative to men so it's not even just that everyone got more misr because

Michael Knowlesof I don't know a bad economy or something women in particular became less happy despite all the objective improvements to their lives so to me the the obvious rejoiner to that is well maybe those objective improvements

Pixienamely feminism that's the thing that happened between 1973 and 2008 uh maybe that wasn't an objective good maybe that was just ill to the obvious rejoiner of that is that women are becoming disillusion with the life they had prior

Pixiethey're like leaving the cave so to speak allegorically and also I don't think you should use self-reported happiness as a metric of Justice or any like objective good because you can plot self-reported happiness with pretty much any variable like highest reported crime

Pixieviolent crime in the United States also is directly correlated to self-reported happiness does that mean one cause is the other no does that mean we should think CRI highest violent crime is I'm just saying in the periods of time when we've had the most violent crime in the United States there's also a correlation

Michael Knowlesbetween highest rates of self-reported happy do well not not according to the survey I just cited right if if happiness has been declining steadily especially for women since 1973 to 2008 you had a major Crim spike in the early '90s but you didn't have a major spike

Pixiein happiness so perhaps there's some survey that you're referring to in some cities it wouldn't uh but also even women living traditional lifestyles are seeing a downfall in happiness so why is it the women who are still living the type of lifestyle that you would probably

Farha Khiprescrib to women are also having a decrease in happiness I'm not I'm not convinced of that the Institute of family studies that a big and there's a lot of State out there that actually children make you less happy so there is this problem happen happening where we're like okay why are people less happy but we don't know we don't know

Farha Khiwhat it is and then you would expect then that the like if you looked at the most unhappiest countries you would expect Canada the Nordic country Scandinavian countries CU they're very egalitarian and you're not seeing that they they actually have higher happiness levels well they have the highest rates

Farha Khiof alcoholism in the world you think of Denmark Norway Iceland in particular so I don't know how happy they are now you're changing but if we're going to just go by what makes people happy I don't know if I I think there are arguments to be made about like community and those things may make

Farha Khipeople less happy but this idea that's because women aren't having children when we also have data a lot of data that shows children especially in the United States has the biggest happiness Gap and then we're seeing that other countries that are more feminist are

Farha Khialso not having like if you compare like Scandinavian countries to like the East like I'm my parents are immigrates from Iran Iran has really high unhappiness levels a lot of countries yeah exactly so I don't know if you can say that this

Michael Knowlesis causing that right well yeah Nordic countries also have much more homogeneity which is correlated with uh political happiness but so there all all um of those differences but I I think the uh the point about children making

Michael Knowlesyou unhappy and the point about leaving the cave I think those are both a little bit of a cope because they're uh beled by the fact that uh if it were just that women were coming into their own now and they were recognizing the oppression of

Michael Knowleswhich they were not conscious previously then why would they keep getting less and less happy you know at a certain point aren't you supposed to turn the corner and become more happy in your Independence but that's not what's happened for 35 years it just gets worse worse and worse including relative to

Michael Knowlesmen and then for children you you look over the past U what 70 plus years now 74 years since 1950 to present day the marriage rate has dropped by 60% and the

Michael Knowlesbirth rate has dropped by 50% so just looking at the whole society we are having many many fewer children than we were before and yet we're much less happy even even like like Pakistan are having less kids sure I'm just I'm just

Jasmine Jafarpointing out you're saying that having fewer children makes you happier and I'm saying we're having many fewer children and Americans are much less happy and you you see this even Beyond just random surve I kind I kind of want to push back on this idea that we've gotten um more unhappy as time has progressed because

Jasmine Jafarat least to my understanding what's happened in the last like you know 20 or 30 years is an increased awareness of like mental health and what that means so it's not necessarily that people were really happy before and now suddenly are miserable it's just that now we're

Jasmine Jafaractually having data where people can talk openly about their mental health unhappiness and not be as stigmatized as before if we look at the 1950s and even like Housewives around that time we see like there is actually like a huge rate

Jasmine Jafarof like narcotic usage and basically like prescriptions to that level um so I'm not necessarily if I would go as far to say um yeah we've gotten unhappiness as time we've gotten more unhappy as time has gone by I would say more likely

Michael Knowlesoh no we've been able to properly report measure and assess mental health as time has gone by well listen I'm uh very inclined toward your view that social scientific studies are bunk I mean

Michael Knowlesthere's a major replication prices I think it's all ridiculous I will cite those social science stats when they serve my argument because why not that's what we do these days but I agree I'm I'm skeptical of measuring happiness and all the rest of it but on the mental

Michael Knowleshealth point I think here we do have some pretty firm data and it contradicts the argument you're making which is uh right now one in five middle-aged women in the country is hooked on anti-depression drugs on any given day

Michael Knowlesthey're taking them women are two and a half times as likely as men to take these depression drugs it is ubiquitous at this point and and the rates of taking depression drugs are going up

Michael Knowlesit's getting much worse so if we're not getting uh less and less happy why do people keep taking more and more depression drugs why were housewives in the ' 50s Downing like a bottle of wine at lunch every day I'm just saying I I'm

Pixienot so sure I mean these are anec weting self-medication now with actually like medically backed drugs that actually help women with their mental health issues it's also now that when you're sad you just go to the doctor and they give you anti-depressant drugs I don't know how much more depressed people

Michael Knowlesactually are other than the fact that they're just dishing them out to everybody and they're dishing them out more and more and more sure you can blame the pharmaceutical industry the medical industry I'm just pointing out you know one in order to argue against

Michael Knowlesthese social science statistics one has to just turn toward unfalsifiable anecdotes and memes you know all the house wives were all miserable in the ' 50s they were secretly you know drinking behind their husband's backs but I know

Farha Khimaybe they were maybe they weren't all I have are the data available saying that more people are on anti-depressants it's not telling you why it's not telling you what caused it it's not telling you well that's what we're debating here is what could have caused it you're

Farha Khisaying oh it's no but I'm I'm not saying you know maybe they hate their husband maybe they hate their kids maybe they don't like you know the weather in their town is a great example of this anyone now can just be like oh I have trouble focusing does everyone have ADHD or are people just getting these you know these

Michael Knowlesare questions that we should ask before we jump to a conclusion that no I agree look I think that they're pathologizing a lot of an ordinary aspects of human nature but I think part of the reason that we do that is because we're so radically misinterpreting human nature

Michael Knowleswhich brings us right back to feminism the clearest example of this is the transgender argument which is all anyone ever talks about these days I'm frankly sick of it we know that men and women are different but but that shows you uh

Michael Knowlesyou know a major confusion about human nature if a man can become a woman then we have been really wrong about anthropology for a long time and most reasonable people know a man can't

Michael Knowlesbecome a woman uh but but that error in human nature goes back much earlier than transgenderism it go you know this is why I have pity for the feminists who are trans exclusionary radical feminists

Michael Knowlesbecause they don't realize that it was their own ideology that led to this the the premise of transgenderism is that men and women are basically the same so much so that one can become the other but if if that's true you know then that

Michael Knowleshas to come from somewhere and where it came from was the redefinition of marriage to say that a man and a woman is the same as man and a man is the same as a woman and a woman and that comes from the sexual Revolution and that comes from feminism which says a woman

Michael Knowlesneeds a man like a fish needs a bicycle uh so yeah I agree the these errors in human nature can lead to all sorts of problems did you say transgenderism is people thinking that there's no differences and why would they need to

Farha Khitransition that's a great question I don't think that's what transgenderism beli that there's no difference between men and women transgenderism believes that men and women are so uh similar

Michael Knowlesthat one can become the other it's which is different than the feminist to say men and women are so similar that a woman can do anything a man can do but transgenderism takes that principle to the extreme which is men and women are

Michael Knowlesso similar they're they're not complimentary sex is not immutable it's not an Inseparable accident of being as you know an Aristotelian or St Thomas aquinus might say but no it's actually just kind of a social construct and it's so socially constructed that I can go

Michael Knowlesdown to my doctor and have him reconstruct my chest and all of a sudden I've magically become the opposite sex that that error comes from feminism okay before we pivot to transgenderism can we go back to the happiness feminist conversation tied up so I wanted to ask

Pixieyou do you think that should be the ultimate good in the metric for which we base like our justice system and our just overall societal progress on is self-reported happiness well I don't know even what you mean by societal progress I mean you know Justice is a

Michael Knowleshabit of virtue that inclines the will to give to one what he deserves right so it's it's about desserts and so we protect certain rights and we enforce certain laws at least we used to we don't really do that as much in this country anymore um and an aspect of

Michael Knowlespolitical Justice would be human flourishing so when we talk about happiness I'm all I'm very interested in happiness but I'm interested in happiness in the way that Aristotle's interested in happiness which is udonia

Michael Knowlesyou know a way to live the best possible life and I think that we can know something about that through our faculties of Reason which are objective and if reason weren't objective and at least somewhat reliable we couldn't have

Michael Knowlesself-government now the way that happiness is often used in our modern culture is Hedonism is well is Hedonism like the utilitarians right just means getting pleasure and avoiding pain or is

Michael Knowlesjust totally subjective to the point where you say well don't yuck my yum you know what's you know I maybe I like this and you don't like this well sure I mean restaurants have menus for a reason but

Michael Knowlesthere's there must be some limiting principle here we must know something about what is conducive to human happiness uh and if we don't then how do we have self-government completely agree I just don't know if self-reported

Farha Khihappiness um is more congruent with the subjective reports of happiness or that udia that you're referring to sure it's just the best we've got toe something you said in the beginning about individualism like do you prefer sociocentric countries do you not love

Farha KhiAmerica and the what do you mean sociocentric like countries where like you're like oh part of the problem with feminism is so focused on the self well I think that is one of the cornerstones of like Western Civilization is instead of being it's a very liberal view of Western Civilization yeah which I think

Farha Khiis one what makes Western Civilization so wonderful like we are one of the only I think we are like the only one founded on individualistic rights like principles that we I don't think we really are founded that way I think that's what people say we were founded on now but you know you you hear a

Michael Knowlesphrase like liberal democracy that's the the popular way to describe our country now uh that phrase appears basically nowhere in the English language until the 30s then it jumps a little bit in the 40s it really doesn't take off in in

Michael KnowlesEnglish literature until the ' 80s uh America the founding fathers didn't think of us as a liberal democracy they were influenced by some Enlightenment thinkers John Lock and montc say but they were also influenced by the

Michael Knowlesclassical tradition and the classical tradition is one of the common good not in the Communist sense of that but again I don't I they thought the common good was best pursued by having individual rights instead of like that's one of the

Michael Knowlesreasons we founded ourselves on a separation of church and state you have the right we were not founded on a separation of church and state I mean we can get into that I think sure it's it's well incidental to this point but it appears in no founding document there's

Michael Knowlesone errant letter from Thomas Jefferson to a friend that mentions the phrase uh and the the Treaty of Tripoli makes some uh little knock on Christianity to appease the Muslim Pirates Who were capturing our sailers but you know the

Michael Knowleswhen the first amendment established uh no church at the national level the reason for that is not that there was a firm separation of church and state it's because there were already established churches at the state level in many states that persisted for decades after

Farha Khithe the whole thing is that you can't have a test for for political office they purposely left it out you're saying that this that they didn't me they refer to religion explicitly and they say we won't have a church at the national

Michael Knowleslevel because we have churches established at the state wa it says that where does it say that in the Constitution that we're only doing this because we have churches not only doing that but uh we can see it in history and in the ratification debates that's why

Michael Knowlesin a number of states for decades after the ratification you had established churches and this changes through 19th century Juris Prudence on fortunately but that's you know that has nothing to do obviously with the founding of the country furthermore you know you have in

Michael Knowlesthe national anthem which come also comes from the 19th century uh the notion that this be our motto and God is our trust which is from a forgotten uh verse of the The Star Spangled Banner you also have it in our money you also

Michael Knowleshave it in the benedictions and the invocations of the Continental Congress and the Constitutional Convention so you you also have it in the speeches of George Washington and so you know John Adams says that the con that the American government will be based on the Christian morality John Jay first Chief

Farha KhiJustice of the United States is the same thing he goes even further yeah and I'm sure you know there's a bunch of quotes I can pull out from the other side you can there AR there's one fromom God to took the Bible and cut out every

Michael Knowlesreference to the Supernatural and kept the rest for wisdom Thomas Jefferson made did make a commentary on the Bible uh that and his views were a little odd I grant you but I've already granted to you that in a private letter Thomas Jefferson advocated for a separation of

Farha Khichurch and state and and our constitution does right there's a free yes there's a separation of church and state you have first amend what what does where do you see Congress shall make no I mean I like pull it up we can read it word for word

Farha Khibut I mean like it is there we didn't just all this yeah read listen I didn't go to law school so while she looks that up one of the other questions I wanted to get into

Farha KhiCongress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion or prohibiting free exercise thereof right so now where do you see a separation of church and state well when you say congress shall make no La respecting establishment of

Farha Khireligion that is that separation right and so what is the Congress the federal government is that what you're saying so you're saying it's the lawmaking body for the federal government right yes but if like before the incorporation State of California starts to be like actually

Farha Khiin all our schools we're going to start enforcing Christian ideology in our public schools that would be unconstitutional under this un first amendment in fact that was the way that basically all schools operate in the country until the middle of the 20th century until the Supreme Court said

Michael Knowlesthat you cannot you can't have prayer in schools and you can't teach because of the First Amendment well no the middle the middle step was the incorporation of the Bill of Rights to to the okay sure but that's been Incorporated unless you don't want that part right but you're

Michael Knowlesjust saying the country was founded on the separation of church and state I'm saying that that wasn't even brought up as a matter of jurist prudence until many many decades later and then it wasn't enforced in schools until a century after that yeah because no

Jasmine Jafarrights were right that's what the incorp I'm just confused do you believe the Bill of Rights is like a founding document or not the Bill of Rights is a list of 10 amendments to the US constition do you believe it is a found in document um when it comes like

Jasmine Jafarbasically the United States as a whole yeah yeah okay so then to me I don't understand why the conversation is continuing because if you believe the Bill of Rights is integral to the founding of this nation and the Bill of

Michael KnowlesRights of First Amendment states that no religion shall be I think you're just I think you're misunderstanding what that phrase meant to the people who wrote it and the people who lived under that government it just seems to me I where

Michael Knowleswould the misunderstanding be the whole IDE your misunderstanding that uh the Bill of Rights did not apply to the states at the time and the lack of an establishment of a church at the national level does not imply that there cannot be an establishment of a church

Jasmine Jafarat the state level which we we know for a fact there was at the time of ratification I guess I'm I am a little bit confused because I don't understand if the Bill of Rights is part of the federal um basically legislature right

Jasmine Jafarit's part of the federal law we are under yeah but um the whole point of creating the Constitution and according to the Federalist Papers as well is that oh no we need some like overarching law that that you know goes throughout the

Michael Knowlesnation so that way that we can be a United Nation not exactly so federalism right refers to uh the principle of subsidiarity to the The View that there would be different levels of government frankly all the way down to the individual right in the family and the

Michael Knowlescommunity and the state and and the national government so certain powers and rights were reserved to the federal government but they were relatively small at the uh ratification of the Constitution and then many many rights

Michael Knowlesand laws uh and Powers were reserved to the states and that some were reserved to the people so do you think it's bad that the First Amendment now applies to all the states let's let's try to keep

Brian Atlasit a little focused on this so I have a question for you guys one uh do we live in the patriarchy and if so and I want everybody to respond do we live in the

Pixiepatriarchy and if so is the patriarchy good or bad we'll start with Farah come this way and then we'll have Michael I think it's such semantics at this point um as of now I'm going to say

PixieI don't think we necessarily live in a patriarchy do I think women are marginalized in a disproportionate way in relation to men 100% but would I use the term patriarchy as a blanket term not necessarily yeah I guess it depends on

Jasmine Jafarhow a person is defining patriarchy well let's maybe start off by defining patriarchy okay um if we're defining patriarchy as a system of power where men uphold most of governance and Social

Jasmine JafarPower um I would say that there is an argument to be made that we currently live in a patriarchy um whether that's good or I personally I'm the thought that that's bad but yeah it

Jasmine Jafardepends on what definition you guys want to use I'm open to it do you guys concur with her definition of patriarchy can you repeat it sorry basically it's a system of power where men

Farha Khihold hold most of the capital social the capital social political power so obviously we know historically this is true and if we're looking at a global level or are we going to like refine it to like United States because these are

Farha Khigoing to be very different conversations and West we the West so I would say like and you see this that like it's more prevalent in countries that are poorer that have less technological advancement as industrial Machinery be came became a

Farha Khithing and education and all that and so now I don't think like in the west I'm not going to sit here and say like women don't have equal rights um I think some of that history in certain ways like in maybe culture and our perception of men

Farha Khiand women has has is still here but no and I would say that what it hurts men and women to the same degree if in some ways yeah I would say that okay so far you don't think that there's a

Pixiepatriarchy or are you unsure I think the word patriarchy is a bit harsh and I don't know if I would apply it to yeah how we live in the west no okay but you two do believe there is a there's an argument to be made depending on what

Michael Knowleslevel um you're talking about when it comes to power or how much power you have to have to establish patriarchy yeah I guess I'm I kind of think more than you do that we live in a patriarchy not not as a matter of law

Michael Knowlesyeah the the law says we don't the law if anything has inverted we're closer to a matriarchy except we don't have kids anymore so there are fewer mothers but uh as a matter of practical living I

Michael Knowlesthink we still do live in a patriarchy I think men wield probably more power than we ever did it's just in a very perverted way so men you know wield the

Michael Knowlespower to have casual hookups women statistically tend to not prefer casual hookups men tend to like them quite a lot more and women prefer a longer last relationship that's what I would agree with I think that's what I meant by

Pixiecultural currency I think men have the Monopoly on like the cultural Zeitgeist and women move in lock step to like men's Desires in the male gay I would agree with that in terms of politically I don't know if I would agree as much but I agree with that definition totally

Michael Knowlestotally and so you know the the irony though is that all of that sexual Revolution came about because of feminism you know but it it it didn't really give women I think what they thought they were going to get I think if anything it gave men more power I

Michael Knowlesremember thinking about this many years ago when I was in college and the hookup culture was really burgeoning I thought is this the greatest trick that men ever played on women that these women who call themselves feminists think that

Pixiethey're going to be empowered by letting men just use them whenever they want and then cast them aside and go sleep with some other woman girl power I completely agree and I actually don't think women are the culprit or feminists are the culprit today of hookup culture I think

Michael Knowlesit's more like neocons tradcons pickup artist the one who says that you need to unpack the F traditionalists don't don't support hookup culture at all I say as a you know proud traditionalist I would say that also there's a distinction between the moral question like if

Farha Khiyou're a woman and you hook up like that's part of what the sexual Revolution was there to do to give women autonomy to be able to consent to things to not have a Scarlet Letter you know attached to them forever because they decided to do a hookup and then the

Farha Khiother question is is it healthy no not not the same if you look at Social attit yeah but if you look at social attitudes in the last 20 years on things like casual sex basically we're it's moving in this direction the whole reason you have a show is cuz most people think

Michael Knowleslike me and you have something to fight against I don't think so I think I have a really popular show because you know a lot of people are living under our cultural Zeitgeist but they realize that it's wrong and some people but I mean if you look at polling and stuff I me

Farha Khiespecially if you look at where like the institutional power is like in media in Academia and stuff like we have that power we definitely influence the culture and if you look at polling and you look at like 30 years ago 40 years ago how people felt about casual sex so I agree that there's a moral question

Farha Khiand what's actually good for you and the truth is there is a small number of people like women tend to have more restricted sociosexuality than men do but there are some women what do you mean by soci sexuality soci sexuality is how um open you are to Casual

Farha Khirelationships there's like an inventory and they like look at your desire your behavior your attitudes towards it and Men typically are more open to it than women are but you there is some like you know there's like 10% or 5% of women who still and I don't think there's anything

Farha Khiwrong with those women going out and doing that but I do think we need to put more of an emphasis on like okay the moral question whether you're a if you do this that's separate from is this good for you is this going to make you feel good is this what you really want separate I think it's separate why would

Michael Knowleswould it be separate you know if if morality is concerned with what is right and what is wrong and we are rational beings that uh recognize that some things are better than other things then then wouldn't it stand to reason that if

Michael Knowlesyou do more good things and fewer bad things if you if you pursue more virtue and less Vice that you would be happier and flourish may but are you is eating a dut immoral well it depends if you've had like five Donuts already you know

Farha Khithen probably like to me I don't think like eating fast food is immoral it may not be good for you but it's not immoral and so and there isn't like this stigma associated with it where it's like oh nobody like you know no sex is obviously

Michael KnowlesI think even more fundamental to human nature than Donuts are and I like donuts plenty but you know sex is very very important to human nature true in part because the action is what propagates the species or in our sterile age does

Michael Knowlesnot propagate the species but you know you point you're you're a trained lawyer pass the bar exam and you have spoken publicly about how because you you know you've made other career choices you really can't work in the law a firm

Farha Khiwould fire you so it would seem to me putting aside the Justice or Injustice of that fact that there is still a major stigma Associated firms would actually hire me over you probably still no but

Farha Khimy point is that that some of the things you say are so controversial that with how with how I think I saw a little bit clip of your last thing where you said like Yale would like deny you even went there I think they want to burn my

Farha KhiDiplomat that's my point is very Lial is that Society is Shifting and we're becoming more okay with things like sex work but we're still not there 100% but we still are very quick to cancel misogyny and I'm not AG I wouldn't say

Farha KhiYale is representative of the broader Society though you know it's a kind of I love my own I mean if we're talking about law firms if we're talking about good like big time law firms like they would have a harder time like wait can may can just a clarifying question so

Brian Atlasyou're you're thinking broadly speaking people will find a conservative political pundit more objectionable than a in Academia totally age in

Farha KhiAcademia in higher UC and like Corporate America yeah I think you're probably right about that tells you tells you a lot about the societ you can argue that but to say like like there are firms out there that would

Michael Knowlesstill take me over you but in in reality look I mean it's a funny line and there is a lot of Truth to that but you know a a lot of these videos that go viral from this show in fact and in the broader

Michael Knowleslike red pill manosphere stuff it's uh women who are being shamed for for their uh sexual behaviors putting the jus or Injustice of that aside for a second those videos get a lot of views those

Michael Knowlesthose attitudes are still very very prevalent and I think it's because no amount of feminist indoctrination is going to alter basic aspects of human nature and I think men broadly don't

Michael Knowleswant the their wives to be promiscuous and look everybody has a past and I think there's all sorts of redemption and repentance and I think that can all be great but but no one you know as L Ros Fuko said hypocrisy is the tribute

Farha KhiVice pays to Virtue no no one I think really deeply desires that and and you know the men who watch the show are going to be going to selection bias there because they're going to be more likely to not desire that they're probably going to spend more time on the

Farha Khiinternet there's all these very popular but like this idea that men want a body count of zero is not really replicated I think in normal society that like you you may not they may not like you obviously there's a spectrum here like

Farha Khiyour girl doing porn is different than having three bodies right like different there's going to be different levels of men who are okay with one and not the other but we do have a culture War for a reason because there is enough people on this side who are like actually there's

Farha Khinothing wrong with having casual sex actually there's nothing whatever about doing only fans and we I think tradcons can be super happy living a tradcon life but you guys are the ones telling us we can't be happy and there's nobody out

Michael Knowleshere on our side that no no look we we're observing certain facts of society and mentioning them and uh but but also we're recognizing that the liberal view of society that we're all just individuals and you know don't yuck my

Michael Knowlesyoung man that that doesn't really work because because we live in society so you know I I keep bringing up the trans thing because it's just the clearest example of all these different topics we're talking about the the protrans

Michael Knowlesargument was just let me dress up in a skirt how does it bother you I'm doing it in the privacy of my own home stop you know yucking my yum okay fine okay well if I'm going to wear a skirt you're

Michael Knowlesgoing to call me Shelly all right Steve like I'll call you Shelly fine whatever okay and if you're going to call me shell and I'm going to wear a skirt then I'm going to go use the women's bathroom now hold on Steve sorry shell like you can't my daughter goes into the women's

Michael Knowlesbathroom well I'm a woman and I say I'm a woman you have no damn right to say that I'm not a woman well no I I do have a right to say you're not a woman I do have a right to suggest that you not behave like a weirdo in public and I do have a right to say you get out of my daughter's bathroom because I've got

Michael Knowlesfaculties of reason and I live in society and and to quote John Stewart Mill who's one of the most important liberal thinkers of all time in his essay on Liberty he points out you know we want a lot of protections for privacy

Michael Knowlesbut you're there there are not really any totally private vices you know if a guy is just a big drunk and he just drinks all the time maybe does in his own home and it doesn't bother you but then maybe he neglects his family and his family can't eat and then maybe he

Michael Knowlesdoesn't go to his job and maybe he doesn't pay his taxes and maybe he doesn't contribute to the community that he lives in and maybe we have a right in the political Community to put some limits on individual autonomy because it's degrading to individuals and you

Jasmine Jafarget all the individuals together that's your Society yeah I don't know I just kind of want to push back on the idea that like basically being trans is the same as being a drunkard and I think the reason why is because um they saying

Michael Knowlesthey're the same they deviant and and uh suffer defects of Will and intellect okay I guess my question to you is when does something deviant become harmful because there's a lot of deviant behaviors out there I don't think most

Jasmine Jafarof them are harmful I don't think most of them are bad but obviously you think that there's something bad about being trans and being drunk enough to like do the analogy so my question is when does deviants become harmful do you believe this should be enforced through law or

Farha Khiare you just talking social like do you think like we should put in because there's a lot of rights that we hold up even when they're are NE like free speech people say mean words but we still are like the right is so important guns you know they sometimes we have limits on spe of course I think I agreed

Michael Knowleswith everything you said there should be limits the question is where should those limits be and how should they be enforced and that's my question we should probably arrive at them through prudence and very carefully I think I don't think there's like a write five bullet points on an app can answer to this as some ideologues do I think we

Michael Knowleshave Prudence for a reason and it's the sorry my dear consumate political virtue uh but uh also when you say should it be enforced through social norms or through the law I'm not sure there's a to Total firm distinction here it's very

Michael Knowlesfashionable of the Libertarians to say politics is totally Downstream of culture yeah sure that's true in as far as it's true but also the law is a tutor and so the law creates certain incentives and disincentives if you're

Michael Knowlesgoing to punish certain behaviors you're actually going to get less of that behavior and if you encourage certain Behavior you're going to get more of that behavior so it com comes back to the trans I mean there's there's still a big difference like I actually like what you guys do I watch it cuz I like to hear different opinions no I like to

Farha Khilisten to different opinions and stuff but I have no problem with you getting on and trying to advocate for like getting rid of things like no fault divorce now if you guys pass the law like I think you should have the complete right to do that convince people but passing the law and is a very different thing well you would have you

Farha Khiwould have to pass a law if you're talking about a law right you're talking yeah but I think it's much different to try to get people to not get divorced or advocate for that position well look I think I think every everybody unless

Michael Knowlesyou're the most hardened radical feminist Maniac you you would you don't like divorce right you're not saying we want more divorce but I think people should have the freedom right so you're just you're merely talking about the

Michael Knowlesright and so I guess my question then is put aside legal divorce for cause what is gained by no fault divorce what's the what's the good of that oh

Jasmine Jafarthere's a bunch of good when it comes to no fault divorce um previously when we had fault divorce people would literally have to like lie or commit vices in order to be able to get divorced so whether it was like why don't they just

Jasmine Jafarnot get divorced though if there's no fault um the problem is if they decide to like not get divorced usually that leads to like higher rates of unhappiness it leads to people having like more tension within their marriage it prevent well yeah there is does it I

Jasmine Jafardon't know I'm not convinced of that again because I think you know happiness has declined for everybody especially for women over the time that we've had these yeah but we we can look at people who um what is it reportedly stay in marriages where they're unhappy and like the long-term effects of that even like

Jasmine JafarPsych ologic Al healthwise um we can look at abusive relationships situationships where um the woman feels like she can't leave even in an era of divorce that would be fault right that's not no fault divorce that's like my

Jasmine Jafarhusband punch in the face problem the problem with fault divorce right is that you already instituting like a burden of proof onto like these abuse victims um that would basically prolong the process of them getting away from their abusive partner right now you you could separate

Jasmine Jafarand you could move out you know the same night so basically you're saying that you're okay with advocating for system where you know they're basically not married in all the ways that matter um but just not legally I don't know what matters I I well they're not living

Michael Knowlestogether they're not being um intimate together their children are in basically separate homes because you're saying the woman can leave but she I'm opposed to divorce but I'm we're speaking specifically now about no fault divorce because we're probably not going to

Michael Knowlesagree on divorce broadly but we might at least agree that no fault divorce is very very bad because you're saying well if one is not able to have a no fa divorce then uh you know they might have to stick with that spouse that they

Michael Knowlesdon't like that much or the spouse got kind of fat and I don't like him anymore whatever uh but first of all it's definitely better for the kids in as much as the studies are reliable on this kids who grow up in a home of a mother and a father bound together in marriage

Michael Knowlesdo better across every single uh Criterion but but furthermore uh you're you're neglecting the the negative aspects of divorce I mean when people do get divorced and then if they have kids

Michael Knowlesyou know and God forbid they get divorced then if you introduce a a stepfather into that relationship the odds that those kids are are abused or sexually assaulted go through the roof the odds uh that a u and actually at a

Michael Knowlesmore basic level because we could rattle off the statistics all day at the basic level we recognize that the marriage is the fundamental political unit the Liberals say the individual is the fundamental political unit but I think that's bunk I think it's the family

Farha Khibecause political means multiple people you know just to go on the data really quick I mean there staying in a household with conflict is worse than but they they'll have the conflict in

Farha Khidivorce I mean this is yeah it's better for like yes you're right the but also when you when you factor in education and socioeconomic status a lot of that dissipates so what's happening usually is that poor people are more likely so it's that's

Farha Khiit's all jumbled up PO people are less likely to get married in the first place and more likely to have kids but the being a child in a home with conflict between the parents is worse than having right but then why isn't the answer resolve the conflict because people

Michael Knowlescan't we human beings you're the one who talking about human nature nature we're clearly not successful at staying with one person forever we have been at a much higher rates in the recent past so you know unless we're suggesting that no

Michael Knowlesone can progress that no one can improve their behavior uh then I think we can get better at that and I think part of the reason why divorce rates spiked is because the law encouraged divorce rates to spike and because to give the red

Michael Knowlespill guys their due because family courts have been horribly unjust to men and because we have a a liberal Idol in our society of radical individualism that says who cares what happens to my

Farha KhiSP when in recent history were we really good as a human species on lifelong healthy bonds like we serial monogamy be we're I don't but this thing you don't know just because of someone staying together like there's a lot of people

Farha Khiwho had parents that stay together that are all sorts of messed up because the parents fought they there was alcoholism in the there's all types of things just people staying together isn't yeah isn't a good metric for childhood wellbeing

Michael Knowleswell it's a good predictor of outcomes but I totally Grant to you that uh yeah there are bad marriages I just think should if the law is then going to intervene the way the law has intervened is by dissolving the marriages and creating all sorts of incentives to get divorced and to not get married in the

Michael Knowlesfirst place but if the law is going to intervene because of all these problems why wouldn't the law intervene to make marriage uh more sustainable to encourage marriage the law really isn't intervening per se people are choosing whether they want to apply this law to

Jasmine Jafartheir life or not so people are choosing that they want to get divorced or choosing if they want to work things out the difference is that now you have a choice on whether you think the person you're with is actually somebody you can continue having a sustainable

Michael Knowlesrelationship with if the answer is no then to to quote Simone deir that famous feminist if you give people a brand new Choice uh they if they if you give people a a preferable Choice given their

Farha Khisocial circumstances they might just take it and women far off this idea that women are like to fight back on the red pill that women are just incentivized to divorce women far off far worse financially after divorce they're way more likely to seek up seek uh

Michael Knowlesgovernment assistance being poverty they less likely to repart so this idea that women are just running to the divorce court to get money is just not true well no they they are divorcing at much higher rates that's undeniable and I'm totally with you divorce is horrible for

Michael Knowleswomen so when sometimes feminists make the argument that I think perhaps we were getting to a little earlier the argument that you just contradicted which is divorce is so good for women It's a Wonderful choice they really need to have this Choice it makes their lives

Jasmine Jafarbetter no it doesn't basically all the time it makes their lives much worse to say nothing of the ways that it harms their children soet what it's basically saying is that if a person is willing to take all these

Jasmine Jafarworst outcomes like economically um socially whatever imagine how bad that relationship must have been woman decided like hey you know what instead of like trying to continue this it is so

Farha Khitoxic and so unhealthy that this is a better alternative or they or they have been diluted by a lot of propaganda over the years which is you may be you seem very Sane I'm sure you and your your wife have really great ways of communicating and resolving your

Farha Khiconflict you know how crazy people are like yeah like to say that that's going to work for everybody and everybody should just stay in this when people are not emotionally even mature enough look I I certainly style myself Prince

Michael KnowlesCharming so I'm glad toar we all agree but you're right maybe people engage in more vicious and and uh harmful harmful

Michael Knowlesbehaviors so I guess my question is if we agree that certain cultural practices can make people behave better MH and certain cultural practices can

Michael Knowlesmake people behave worse shouldn't we be doing everything we can to make people behave better and that's what we did in the classical political arrangement of society right you know the basic point

Michael Knowlesof politics is do good and avoid evil uh then under liberalism you you had a new point of society the new point of society was to just uh expand individual autonomy maximally on the I think false

Michael Knowlessupposition that that would make people happier and we've had a couple hundred years now and we've seen how it it's played out and it hasn't played out very well at all so why don't we go back to the one that worked for all of human history so one do you think that's possible or going to happen and two would you then be in favor because

Farha Khieducation female education seems to be a big predictor of one we're the only ones whose marriage rates are not falling they're going up and we're less likely to get divorced so do you then would you advise women instead of getting married

Michael Knowlesreally Young and Living this traditional lifestyle to maybe go get educated the best predictor of women staying married and flourishing and having lots of kids and and being happy and not even trying to get divorced it's not education though education is some predictor of

Farha Khithat is religion yeah you're true but you can't make people we're just becoming less religious as a society this thing you guys have let's turn the clock back let's turn the clock back I don't want to turn any clocks back I just want to turn our heads back to reason reason in logic who is God yeah

Farha Khiexactly but the logic and the reason and the age of information a lot of people now have access it and they're going actually this kind of seems like and they can't you can't make no I don't think that's why people have become IR religious I don't think it's cuz they've all gotten much better educated and read a

Farha Khilot Christopher Hitchens I agree with you heard at Christopher H's video Once you know undeniable that more and more people are identifying as non-religious that this is just the trend that it's going in and I don't know how much as great as the daily wire is how much you

Michael Knowlesguys are going to be able to reverse that so maybe we should look at how we can move forward with the society we have instead of trying to turn the clock back in a way that it's not a clock it's not a clock we're not we're not going I'm not making a time machine I'm just saying that there's truth and there's

Michael Knowlesfalsehood and we have we are embracing a lot of falsehood in society and that's leading to a lot of ugliness and a lot of uh depravity and if we want less of all that stuff and we want more like good true and beautiful things maybe we

Michael Knowlesshould use our reason to recognize really basic things like God exists I'm not telling you you've got to come to traditional Latin Mass tomorrow you could wait until Sunday but uh you know it at the very least we should recognize

Michael Knowleshey guys some things are better than others right the minute you grant that some things are better than others ultimately you have to grant that there is a maximal good a suum bonum who is

Michael KnowlesGod right we should recognize hey guys um effects follow causes and if you go back on the list of causes far enough there's going to be an uncaused cause who is God there's really great arguments against Jasmine before I have

Pixieyou go I would like to hear a little bit more from far if you'd like to weigh in I was just going to ask maybe I missed it so what do you think the ideal form of marriage is like the woman goes to college and then she meets a guy in college and then she Taps out of her career I don't know that going to college is really great for anybody

Michael Knowlesthese days I'm I'm pro-education obviously I mean and I'm I'm not even one of these conservatives who says know you should all just study engineering or whatever you know I think that's bu I think you should read old books and and acculturate yourself uh but I don't

Michael Knowlesthink most colleges accomplish this these days including the really fancy colleges Harvard Yale Princeton I don't know that maybe you can get an education there I'm not totally convinced you can and so yeah I get women should be

Michael Knowleseducated but you know frankly these days you send your kids to a homeschool Co-op they'll start learning Latin in the third grade you send your kids on the track to go to Yale or Harvard and they're probably not going to know

Michael Knowlesanything by the time they graduate uh so yeah I I would love my wife to be educated my wife is extremely educated and I would love my wife to be a wife and a mother and I guess the the image that I think of for marriage is not as

Michael Knowlesyou know the the modern way of talking about it where you say this is my partner it sounds like a gay accounting firm you know this is oh this is my total indistinguishable partner no I want a wife man you know and I want a

Pixiemother for my children I want to be a father and that involves different roles and that involves complimentarity um well that's what I'm asking so are you saying that like maybe they'll get educated outside of College reading books or whatever and then after that

Michael Knowlesthey should focus like at age 23 24 getting married and then not pursuing a career to focus on Family Life yeah I'm not going to prescribe exactly at what age people ought to get married they certainly ought to get married younger I

Michael Knowleswish I'd gotten married younger uh but yeah I don't prescribe that they uh focus on a career with precedent generally speaking I think women will be less happy if they are going to the widget Factory to work for Mr McGill

Michael Knowlescuty so that they can make money that I will I will then receive from my wife to pay some other woman to raise our children I think that's an extremely inefficient and disordered way to have a marriage and I don't think it makes anybody particularly happy I guess it

Pixieconfuses me coming from a tradcon because you guys believe in the design of a lot of things you believe in like the design of sex and what's like the most optimal use of sex why did God give us sex yes and you would say like the end of sex would be to parir bond and

Pixiereproduce so if women were not meant to pursue careers why would God according to your Christian perview you're Christian right yeah like equip us with so many r rational faculties like why

Pixieare women so good at like aerospace engineering nanotech P good at aerospace engineering why women why are women higher than you guys in every subject yeah they're not totally represented in

Pixiethese fields my question is if tradcons use God as like the their perview for you know what I mean use our faculties as the Met why is it that women are now outg outg graduating men like basically two to one but then you guys are colleges

Pixieare total nonsense now and they have a bunch of fake majors and it's a scam it's law fake major cuz this is now we have have more female first year Association yeah and law school is largely escap to you've got a glut of lawyers my question is why would God equip us with these things these

Michael Knowlesfaculties if God did not want us as women to pursue these faculties and instead abandon a first step for marriage and kids the premise of your question is that raising children and running a family in the domestic economy is not a rational activity it's not that

Jasmine Jafarit's a rational activity but why equip us to be so good at stem and college what could be more important than raising I'm saying why give women the ability to both have a child and still

Jasmine Jafarbe able to read like intellectual texts or at aerospace engineer well that's a thing you can raise your kid to be an aerospace engineer I gu an aerospace engineer yourself women can if they like

Michael Knowlesthey generally don't do that no I'm asking so is that your position that God equipped women to be as good at stem to outg graduate men all to just Pur homeschooling Fields metal recipients uh Larry Summers got fired from Harvard for

Michael Knowlesfor pointing this out but uh this is the top prize in mathematics uh until about 10 years ago no woman had ever won the prize and now I think one woman has won it and I'm not knocking there are plenty of women who are much more intelligent

Michael Knowlesthan me the reason Larry Summers is who's a as far as social scientists goes is a very respected one and he's a big lib but uh he pointed out that the reason why men tend to dominate in the

Michael Knowlesthe highest intellectual Fields uh is because not because men are simply smarter than women but because the bell curve of intelligence for men is wider than that of women so but for a society isn't it isn't it like

Farha Khisocieties that allow women to work even us if we hadn't had women we brought in like trillions of dollars to the economy to take out half of the mines in the world in in the world the top I agree but if you want a flourishing wealthy Society you can't do

Michael Knowlesthat by eliminating women from the workforce I agree that we're wealthier today than we were 50 years ago I'm not sure that we're flourishing more than we are I mean we are literally a dying Society right we haven't had above replacement births since 1971 would you

Michael Knowlesfeel okay with immigration as a way to that's that's why we have mass migration but Mass migration causes sorts of social problems which is why it's it's deeply before we pivot I I do want to pin down your position on this so yes the bell curve is wider for men but on

Pixieaverage the average women are smarter than the average men obviously at the ends of the curves there's that wouldn't there's more unintelligent men and more High intelligent the first thing you said that wouldn't wouldn't imply the second right if it's not imply that's just the fact is the bell curve is um

Brian Atlaswider for men like there's more unintelligent and intelligent are you talking about the greater male variability hypothesis is that I'm saying there's there's on average women are more intelligent than men but if you look at the most intelligent people

Pixiethey're more likely to be men if you look at the least intelligent people they're less likely to be men so I'm asking you from your Christian purview because if you're a nihilist you're atheist you could just be like oh that's randomized who cares it doesn't necessarily mean it's best for society if you're a nihilist you can't say anything at all you know because nothing means anything well that was my point if

Pixieyou're an niist you could just say those curves should not be indication of how we should live Society but as a Christian if you think sex is most optimized for certain purposes you would probably think intelligence is best optimized for certain purposes so why would God equip the average woman to be smarter than men do you think it's just

Michael Knowlesfor homeschooling their children again the claim that you made at first which is that men and women have uh bell curves the men's bell curve being wider than the woman's would not imply that

Pixiethe average woman is smarter than the average man it would line them up ex the C itself implies or actually indicates that on average exes no no if you actually look at the curves at the top

Michael Knowlesit's women the women's Curve is taller than the men's curve the the but the the IQ of the curve would be on on the x-axis right that's where you get the extremes so I think so are you disputing that on average women are more

Michael Knowlesintelligent than men as would Larry Summers as with the people who have studied this but again I think it's secondary to the point that your your point is the more interesting point why would God equip us why would Goden school and in stem if women on

Pixieaverage were doing really really poorly in stem and all these like if men were the one outg outg graduating as two to one then I can understand from a Christian purview saying like see God doesn't want you to be good at school because God wants you to focus on these more domestic Pursuits but how can you look at all this evidence and think that

Michael Knowleswe're you know what I mean we're so specifically designed by God and then deny that I think I think you've bought the the big lie of feminism that goes back to Mary wol stonecraft which is that men are endowed with greater virtue than women and I think it's just bunk

Michael Knowlesyou're no saying the opposite she no you're saying what you're saying is that uh the the most important things to do the most impressive things to do the just the greatest stuff to do is to do what most men do which is go out and

Pixiework some no I didn't even I didn't even like moralize I didn't even say that stem and Aerospace and all these industries that women are good at are even morally good I was just saying they happen to be good at these things but from a Christian purview you're the one who would ascribe morality to that

Pixieyou're saying it's it's better to do that I think because you're saying from a Christian purview because you think from a Christian purview what you're good at is what you should do so if women are better at childbearing they should do that if sex is best used in

Michael Knowlesthe specific uh use then people should do that in in that uh narrow reading then I think it's pretty clear most women are better at raising children than building rocket ships so I think probably most women would prefer that

Michael Knowlesbut e even more broadly I think you're exalting male professions in a foolish way I I think that you're you're I'm not even hyping them up I'm just asking you from your theist perview why would God

Pixiemake women so good at stem and college and all these Pursuits if God just wanted us to tap out as soon as we met a man Fus I'm look women do fine on certain tests but uh we're doing great you're doing great a lot of tests sure I