Destiny, Jazmen Jafar VS Lila Rose, Trent Horn DEBATE | Whatever Debates #3

Date: 2023-12-08

Duration: 3h 08m

Guests

Brian Atlas

DDestiny (Streamer)>

JJasmine Jafar >

Identified Speakers

SPEAKER_01Brian Atlas(host)

SPEAKER_02Destiny(guest)

SPEAKER_03Trent Horn(guest)

SPEAKER_04Jazmen Jafar(guest)

SPEAKER_05Lila Rose(guest)

Key Moments

OtherLila Rose opening position: sex has design toward intimacy and life; hedonistic view causes social ills including family breakdown.

“I think that sex is an amazing and beautiful thing and it has a design to it”

OtherJazmen Jafar opening position: sexual autonomy and freedom is positive; no compelling evidence sex work causes harm worse than other allowed activities.

“I think uh sex is a drive everybody has and there's always going to be a demand for consensual sexual services”

OtherTrent Horn opening position: sex work illegitimizes the term 'sex work'; pornography degrades sex's meaning leading to violent and degrading content.

“sex is a very important thing I think everybody nearly everybody agrees that sex is something that's really important”

QuoteJazmen cites meta-analysis: moral incongruence is the single best predictor of experiencing porn-related problems, not amount consumed.

“the number one determinant or the number one predictor of having bad experiences with porn or quote unquote porn addiction which the medical consensus is is not a thing is moral incongruence”

Key MomentTrent Horn presents Cho et al. 2013 study (150 countries): prostitution legalization increases human trafficking via scale effect dominating substitution effect.

“look up show at all CH a 2013 study covering 150 different countries showing an increase in human trafficking when prostitution is legalized”

ControversyBrian interjects to clarify the Whatever podcast does not endorse bestiality during philosophical tangent about consent and animals.

“I just I would just like to make a quick statement I just like to note the whatever podcast does not endorse beastiality”

Key MomentJazmen argues decriminalization improves outcomes: cites 2021 QJE study showing decriminalization reduces STDs and reduces violence against sex workers from police and clients.

“all the evidence shows that when you do start treating it like a job STD rates go down condom use goes up”

QuoteTrent: we should not exploit people to make society better; cannot do evil so good may come.

“we shouldn't exploit people just to make Society a better place we shouldn't treat people like Commodities we shouldn't do evil so good may come”

Key MomentTrent cites Farley et al. 2003: 89% of prostitutes want to quit but cannot due to financial constraints; argues this constitutes mass exploitation.

“a 2003 study by Farley at all in seven countries showed that 89% of prostitutes want to quit their job but can't because of financial reasons”

Key MomentLila cites mental health statistics for prostitutes: PTSD rates on par with combat veterans; suicide attempt rate 41% vs. 29% average; HIV 6x higher; emergency room visits significantly elevated.

“the statistic for that specifically according to this study is that there's an increase in risk for suicide attempt of 41% versus the average of 29%”

ControversyLila cites Joshua Bloom (former top-ranked porn actor): 30 of his close friends in the pornography industry died by suicide during his career.

“he shared about how during his time in the industry which was six or seven years 30 of his close friends took their lives”

Key MomentTrent cites Germany vs. Sweden prostitution murder statistics: 69 prostitutes murdered in Germany (legalized) vs. 0 client-related murders in Sweden (Nordic model) since 1999.

“how many prostitutes have been murdered since 2002 where prostitution is legal in Germany do you know I don't have that data in front of me but I know it's 69 how many have been murdered in Sweden in that time... none”

OtherTrent closing statement: look at what sex work actually is in practice; sex's power to bond and create life is undermined when treated as work.

“go online go and look at the most popular search for things on porn PornHub xHamster camsites what prostitutes say that men usually request from them it's violent degrading”

OtherLila closing statement: sex is beautiful but commodification and hedonism cause real harm; fighting for people to experience sex in the context of love and marriage.

“sex work pornography prostitution is bad for society it's bad for everybody involved”

OtherJazmen closing statement: harms exist but evidence does not justify restriction; sex workers deserve to be accepted and not criminalized.

“this isn't to say there are no harms associated with sex work this is just to say that just because there are some harms Associated”

OtherDestiny closing statement: debate grounds out in teleology of sex (religious vs. consent-based view); consent-based framework is preferable to avoid over-restriction.

“we didn't really get to it but I think like a lot of this conversation ends up grounding out in what we view sex as being for”

Topics Discussed

Opening positions: Is sex work bad for society?

Each debater gives opening statement. Destiny: sex work is a protected consensual transaction. Jazmen: sexual autonomy and freedom is positive. Lila Rose: sex has inherent design/meaning; hedonistic view causes social harm. Trent Horn: sex work degrades the meaning of sex, encouraging a harmful hedonistic worldview.

Pornography and social harms — data debate

Extended debate on whether porn causes measurable social harm. Destiny and Jazmen cite DSM-5 rejection of porn addiction, moral incongruence as main predictor of harm, studies showing women report higher satisfaction. Trent and Lila cite studies linking porn to increased sexual aggression across 22 countries, child sexual assault material proliferation, PornHub most-searched terms (teen/stepmom), and rising rape statistics post-2012 (partially explained by FBI reclassification in 2013).

Porn addiction: real or not?

Debate over whether pornography constitutes an addiction. Destiny cites DSM-5 and Nicole Prause research showing moral incongruence as primary driver. Trent cites Love et al. 2015 neuroscientific meta-analysis linking porn to addiction-like brain changes. Jazmen cites anecdotal evidence from European vs. religious subscribers. Destiny points out that gambling vs. porn: DSM-5 accepts gambling addiction but has repeatedly rejected porn addiction.

Children and pornography exposure

Debate on harm to children from early porn exposure (average first exposure at age 11). Destiny and Jazmen argue data is mixed and inconclusive. Lila and Trent argue exposure leads to normalization of violence, degraded sexual expectations. Debate about whether age verification (age-gating) should be required. Jazmen says she agrees porn should be kept from children but pragmatically is difficult. Discussed New York Times reports on young boys enacting aggressive sexual behaviors learned from porn.

Sexual revolution, abortion, and contraception

Lila Rose argues sexual revolution opened doors to abortion on demand; cites Guttmacher Institute: 50% of abortion patients used contraception in month of conception. Destiny counters that abortion rates have fallen 41% since late 1990s (CDC data). Lila argues contraception failure rates plus sexual culture leads to roughly 1 million abortions/year. Debate over whether post-1990s trends are caused by pornography or other factors.

Teleology of sex: Catholic view vs. consent-based view

Trent presents argument that sex's teleological purpose (procreation + bonding between man and woman) is what gives it moral constraints. Without that framework, even incest, bestiality become hard to rule out on consent alone. Destiny argues consent is sufficient moral framework. Lila Rose argues sex is designed for lifelong love and potential life-giving, and violating that design causes downstream social harm. Debate devolves into bestiality and animal consent tangent.

Prostitution legalization: Nordic model vs. full decriminalization

Debate centers on Cho et al. 2013 study (150 countries) showing prostitution legalization increases human trafficking via scale effect dominating substitution effect. Trent advocates Nordic model (criminalize buyers, not sellers). Jazmen cites 2021 QJE study showing decriminalization improves STD outcomes and reduces violence against sex workers. Discussion of Germany (prostitution legal, 69 murders) vs. Sweden (Nordic model, 0 client-related murders since 1999). PTSD rates in prostitutes on par with combat veterans cited.

Exploitation, consent, and commodification of the body

Wide-ranging debate on consent frameworks. Trent raises nurse/healthcare worker analogy (OSHA standards, dual relationships). Destiny argues healthcare and sex work dual relationship issues are distinct. Discussion of blood plasma donation exploitation parallel. Trent cites Farley et al. 2003 (89% of prostitutes want to quit but cannot due to financial constraints). Jazmen argues she earns 7 figures and chose sex work freely. Debate on whether consent can be truly free when financial need is a factor.

Closing statements

Trent: sex work cheapens sex's bonding/procreative power; look at actual content of popular porn. Lila: sex is beautiful but commodification and hedonism cause real social harm; data supports this. Jazmen: harms exist but evidence does not justify restriction; sex workers deserve autonomy and safety. Destiny: consent-based framework is preferable to teleological/religious framework; slippery-slope concerns about restricting alcohol, gambling, video games if we restrict sex work.

Transcript

Page 3 of 4

Destinyown values and don't let people like um lla so I'm not allowed to encourage you're not allowed to bully people cuz that's just whenl answer the answer shouldn't be the

Destinyanswer shouldn't be the answer shouldn't be good for you for uh you know having self-respect but because that's the exact same answer that Third Way F whatever like affir the boundaries he

Destinyset for himself I thought sex was all about respons you should say is you should figure out what work best for you sex you should do that exploration and because if that guy would have said hey I went out and I 20 people and my friends all looked down on me why don't

Lila Rosethey have self you wouldn't be affirming his bound you'd be saying oh affirm that I would think so so you weren't affirming anything healthy for him you just like that he ideologically with of affirmation in this debate that someone pursuing ABS you should affirm people because they've done the appropriate

Lila Roselevel of exploration to figure out this what's right for them because you're Rel the question isn't whether some question isign with IDE me for having the view that people credit for exploration I give them credit for having the right

Destinyanswers gotcha having the right answers doesn't matter what matters is how you get there that's more you're assuming that he doesn't get there through some thoughtful process and I think that's unfair when your answer is cuz I have self-respect that's the answer everybody gives to justify literally any stupid

Trent HornBehavior I I I think that that's I think that that's uh diminishing this young man and people talk about respect to justify good behavior that they're disrespected or they have respect for themselves and they're not going to do

Trent Hornthings like allow themselves to be objectified resp can be a respect can be a very good reason for something you can't just throw it down theam that's great and the same argumentation has been used to shame women out of even exploring their own V so they're 30 years old like you can use shitty

Destinyarguments to justify anything that's why I'm saying it's the argument that's matters not like the correct out what triggered you or what yeah it's the idea that when people just give a position they say I do this and my friends think that BL blah why don't they have respect then it doesn't sound like something they've truly explored it sounds like a

Lila Roseposition they've been like either bullied or brainwashed into and not SP a good time that comment that comment that was the Assumption I could be wrong I I don't think I think that it's unfair to assume that simply because someone is that's great but You' already affirmed that if they would have given the exact

Lila Roseopposite answer with the same argument you would have disagreed with them so you don't even care about the argument you just care about think you're making the point the point that I was trying to make which is that in our society today we applaud or accept um sexual

Lila Rosepromiscuity that is not true I think largely speaking especially like younger people it's actually feels shameful for some of them if they are a virgin they think oh what's wrong with me and I think that we've forgotten

Lila Rosewe've we've we've lost a sense of respect and appreciation for people who are trying to live a virtuous life what point in US history is everybody proud to be virgins I think today people no no when were we are you saying like in the

Lila Rose80s people were proud it's like I'm 30 and I'm a virgin I'm 25 and I'm a virgin it's not so much about even virgin as it is about virtue is it about having um self-restraint and choosing I'm just going out having

Brian Atlascasual sex and so I think that was the point of this young man that making and I think that that's a good thing okay all right we have uh Kyle wittington question for Destiny and Trent at what point is consent IR relevant what would

Trent Hornbe some examples of actions that would be wrong regardless of consent and why well actually I have an example of this Destiny said something that reminded me got you talked about he also said exploitation and you talked about selling kidneys that actually does have

Trent Horna little bit of a relation here it's not just we've been talking a lot about Behavior like doing this doing that but the big problem with prostitution pornography is the money okay it's money

Trent Hornthat leads to things like exploitation so for example uh I would say it's good for somebody to donate plasma donate bone marrow donate kidneys that helps other people and it's good that they do that but when you start but if you pay

Trent Hornpeople for those things for example the United States is one of the few countries on Earth that pays people for blood plasma most other countries on Earth you can't be paid for blood plasma and we do it here and most blood plasma donation centers they're at like they're

Trent Hornon the border they're in the poor parts of town and when you pay people so we have to ask even though they're consenting to giving up parts of their body is that exploitation that they're basically doing it because they're

Trent Horntrying to get money if we have ethical problems about using money to get people to give up their body their their blood their bone marrow their kidneys and that we're exploiting them because of the money that's involved the same questions

Trent Hornwill be raised about people who will get money by giving their body and something like only fans and it's out there as a virtual image and it's out there permanently the same ethical issues get raised about exploitation who's

Jazmen Jafarexploiting me who's exploiting you yeah you just said that if you do sex the the the CEOs that make millions of dollars from uh only fans and don't have to take their clothes off you could say that about any but any industry in America then you could say capitalism because

Jazmen Jafarmost Industries you don't take your clothes off it's possible taking the close off it's the taking the close off that you have issu it's the moral issue you have it's not the moral issue it's the commodification and it's possible to exploit oneself that's why you can't

TTS/Donationssell your own kidney or you can't sell your own 299 thank you for Trent Jasmine and Leela do you think it is a big brain move for a

TTS/Donationshusband to let other men cream pie his wife or for him to suck men penises or is it more likely to cause a failed relationship we're not answering that good question I think that one of the things you're talking about when you

Destinytalk about the Kenny thing is we've talked about consent a lot but I think the topic that we're really getting toward is something called informed consent so somebody's ability to give consent to something for instance a

Destiny14-year-old can theoretically consent to sexuality with an adult but they can't have an informed consent because they're only 14 we would say can they decide to have sex but do they understand all the

Destinyramifications no and that's where the issue between whether it's moral or immoral comes in I think when we look at things like kidney donations I think that when we look at the informed consent we're looking at is there a group of people that are they have

Destinyenough knowledge to make a decision and if they do uh and there no other mitigating factors the question then becomes like why would you prevent them from doing so so let's say for instance we say okay we do blood plasma donations but that we pay 50 bucks a service for

Destinyor you know like medical studies we pay people for participation in if you do that is it an unethical transactions well let's say you say yes it is and then we get rid of it well what have you what what like what are the social goods that you've achieved there we have less

Trent Hornblood plasma donated people that are poor that could have made money donating plas don't have it anymore like like what what is the positive outcome that's happened there because we can't just make ethical decisions based on what is the most

Trent Hornpositive outcome that's consequentialism or util arianism even that we could do all kinds of things to try to make the best positive outcome for example you could maybe set up a system where

Trent Hornorphaned children a small subset of them are used for uh child sa and then that prevents children overall from being victims of child essay and so the overall rate goes down would that be

Trent Horngood because we had better consequences no because we did something grossly evil to try to get the good consequences and it's similar even if we have more of a shortage of things like kidneys and we we do need more kidneys and and organs

Trent Hornit doesn't justify us doing things that are evil or exploitative like taking organs from dead people without their consent even though they're not alive anymore to consent or or using money so

Trent Hornthat the people who end up doing it are the poor who are in a worse place to be to be exploited and want to go and be able to do something where they are

Trent Horngreatly benefiting Society uh but incurring massive Harms because of this kind of exploitation yeah but then I think that's this doesn't have to be this could literally be we could look at this as a virtue or

Destinydally we're not talking about sacrificing some group of people to save another group people harming some group of people to save other people we're just talking about an individual giving up your kidney it harms you well I'm saying things like blood plasma the kidney stuff obviously moves a little

Destinybit more you can donate blood plasma 100 times a year we don't have long-term studies what that does to people it may not be healthy okay but we do have long-term studies on what like blue collar labor does to people sure is that exploitative that we allow people to get engage in backbreaking work that leads

Destinyto negative Health outcomes it might put them around asbestos it it dep it depends on the particular occupation so if we compare like construction work to blood plasma donation what arguments do you have to save construction work from the negative arguments you've

Trent Hornconstructed to destroy the exploitative effect of like because construction work and this goes back actually to sex work because construction work is uh a service that creates a good it's a

Trent Hornparticular kind of service or skill that's offered with blood plasma what we are doing is we are commodifying people and one of the overarching criticisms of pornography and prostitution including

Trent Hornfrom non religious feminists from the past 40 years is that prostitution pornography are wrong precisely because this is not a service that is offered to people it is the purchasing of a commodity and a simple thought

Trent Hornexperiment shows that wait let me finish thought experiment the simple thought experiment is if people have a choice between two streams that they want to pay for and let's say one is Jasmine's uh 5,000th stream you know special

Trent Hornaccess cool stuff I'm going to do and the other one is Megan from Nebraska barely 18 my very first stream this one's going to be the far more popular one with real jobs people value

Trent Hornexpertise and experience with commodities like a car you value that it doesn't have a lot of miles on it and people treat pornography and prostitution and the women involved more like cars than they do like service work

Trent Hornyou say that that argument also applies to every single form of Athletics no because you value an athlete has more experience and so they have a greater skill side what's the average age of like a female Olympic gymnast but they

Trent Hornhave tremendous skill as the point they have skill and experience wait wait wait what isn't the average isn't the average age like 14 years old not just age the fact is that someone would rather prefer

Trent Horna cam or porn or something with a girl it's my first time whereas a gymnast if it's their first time doing the uneven bars we don't prefer that wa wa so now so now we've liter so now we've narrowed

Destinythis all the way down to it's just the fact it's the first time because commodification of bodies are people like these are things that also happen in a wide like somebody who's younger somebody who's got less damage especially when we talk about sports I feel like for athletics this is going to

Trent Hornapply I don't know how you can look at athletes and say they're not commodified under this lens they can't they can be treated inhumanly people can be treated as Commodities or inhumanly but I'm saying that sex work that's why I don't like that phrase it's not even work

Trent Hornthere's a whole host of other things that are involved to say that we should treat especially prostitution like a job to me seems insane what about acting what about what you what about acting would you say like women actresses are

Destinyalso treated as Commodities cuz a woman actress might be oh she's only 22 she's like hter we can hire her to do this job instead of they want to be a good actor they want her to they want her to have me if you do porn they also want you to do whatever pornographic actions are

Lila Rosegoing to do as well right but Trend point is that for the first the girl who's doing the first time or selling her virginity or showing onl Nar hyf is the most popular porn star in the world 18 years old that's just her first time

Trent Hornno that's not how it works I think the point here is sex is different than all of these things sex has meaning and I think that going back though here's the other thing why we can't I'll I'll give you

Trent Hornanother example why prostitution it can't really be called if you consider it sex work you'd say it's a job like other jobs that are not the the most fun to do is that what the idea of a

Trent Hornprostitute would be that if under the sex work Paradigm it's a job and there are unpleasant elements and like other jobs many people do it just so they want to get paid I wouldn't say that job is necessarily unpleasant I think

Trent Horneverything has aspects of unpleasantness to it okay well I would say that what you don't think prostitution is generally an unpleasant job when you say prostitution probably I said prostitution yes probably in general I

Trent Hornwould imagine it's unpleasant job yes I would imagine in general but there are lots of jobs that are unpleasant and we don't treat it like other jobs so for example uh in other jobs the occupational safety and health administration OSHA has very strict

Trent Hornrules when you come in contact with things like bodily fluids so you have to wear goggles for example you have to wear latex gloves a gown you have to minimize exposure to bodily fluids all

Trent Hornthe time but you could never apply those oosha standards to a prostitute who's expected to you know have urine and ejaculate and other things you know put in their face so you so you can't treat

Trent Hornit like other jobs can you in regards to the bodily fluids thing that probably not right so it it seems very suspicious that if we were to go in and say okay well she's going to wear these goggles and this gown and the guy it can't just

Trent Hornbe a latex condom that's pretty insufficient you could spread HPV even still in the areas that are uncovered you you got to wear to to make it a job covered an ocean you got to wear like a big old diaper that like covers everything in latex in the midsection

Trent Hornand that's the only time the sex acts are going to be allowed is if you make sure there's no physical bodily contact but you also stuff to do this with like a lot of rigorous testing prior to the action lot no because it doesn't matter

Trent Hornthe the OSHA regulation aren't just preventing the spread of definitely infectious liquids of even potentially it's the liquids themselves my point is just that

Trent Hornif if you had a if you had prostitution as a job that actually satisfied standards for safe work apparatuses no men wouldn't go to that they would go to the illegal Alternatives because it's

Jazmen Jafarnot about this being a certain job it's about acquiring a commodity in the bodies of women or men who are frankly treated like women all the evidence shows that when you do start treating it like a job STD rates go down condom use

Trent Horngoes up so I'm just I I don't get how I'm saying what are those like I've heard studies that say that before and they're often misleading like there was one about Rhode Island for example that claim like oh well you know goria goes

Trent Horndown so it it makes prostitution legal except chyia also goes up during this time these are often very cherry-picked they'll pick some diseases but not others to try to say that this is this is acceptable or not but when you compare for example when you compare

Trent HornGermany where prostitution has been legalized since 2002 and Sweden where the Nordic model let's just stick on the oan thing right fine well I'm just saying the get killed in Germany they don't get killed in Sweden okay for

Destinysports don't athletes sometimes come into contact with like blood and stuff like if you're a boxer or if you do MMA right and you minimize that and then you might no no no no wait they don't box in OSHA outfits right they don't have

Trent Hornbiohazard suits on also pornography is already in employment industry in the United States is legal are you telling me there are no o standards the bodily fluids that happen in mixed martial arts competition are incidental to the ACT

Trent Hornyou can get involved in you can do an MMA match or Jiu-Jitsu match or boxing and not come in contact with blood and you definitely won't come you know you won't come in contact with seen that's not going to happen well wait what's more likely to carry like different types of horrible infectious diseases

Trent Hornblood versus seen do you know I don't know the answer to that I I guess it depends what it gets into but the point is that no that's not the point then I will answer it's still incidental the goal in boxing and and and MMA and things like that is not to cause

Destinyabrasions and cuts and if those things happen there are rules the goal what do you mean you're literally trying to beat the other person up it's incidental you don't have to that's not incidental me punching them in the face then bleeding it's not incidental me punching them in the face but it's it is different though

Trent Hornthan what is going on in a sex act where somebody is ejaculating into somebody's mouth that's completely that is and there's no like we would have bandages to be applied and things to prevent the spread of bodily fluids in a sport which

DestinyI don't know if that falls under OSHA as much that's a sport different than just so question do you think OSHA standards just don't exist for porn in the United States they don't exist for pornography don't would they wait wait hold on because pornography an employment industry in the United States does OAS

Destinythem I I believe that it's completely inconsistent how it's treated compared to other Prof say inconsistent isn't there going to be a different set of Osha standards based on whatever the particular job is isn't that literally the point of Osha is to create

Destinyguidelines for safety for doing jobs and I mean if we want to go back you say no what I didn't hear the question that OSHA is going to have a different set of standards for different jobs there's probably going to be different rules depending on your work environment right there are going to be slight variations

Trent Hornbut the just the basic rules of how we' apply these different jobs and different workplace regulations and rules just cannot be applied to quote unquote sex work going going to prostitution in terms of just quick because I don't want

Lila Rosefind word OSHA does have standards for pornography and they do apply to pornography and they work just regardless the standards that may or may not apply to to prostitutes today and

Lila Roseand to uh sex workers today who are engaged in prostitution prostitution leads to very bad outcomes back to when we talk about data for prostitutes and so I think that's something I mean Trent

Lila Rosetalked about the correlation obviously between the increase in human trafficking but it's also harmful to the prostitutes themselves in addition to that okay I want to really go through I want to go through the data on this because if we're talking about the pr

Lila Rosesay a couple criminalizing let me just finish Jasmine let me just finish so I had on my Show recently a ex porn um actor named Joshua broom and he shared his story he was one of the top ranked

Lila Roseor awarded porn actors at the time and he left the industry he's now happily married with four kids so his life wasn't ruined in the end he was able to change his life and he's now extremely fulfilled but he shared about how during

Lila Rosehis time in the industry which was six or seven years 30 of his close friends took their lives um because of the just extreme 30 of his close friends took their lives were these all porn stars these are people involved in pornography

Trent Horncreating pornography so if I look up Josh's story he's got there are 30 porn stars around him that killed themselves correct yes okay and so that have you heard I've never heard that in my life okay in the archive of women's mental health there's a study that shows that

Trent Horn20% of prostitutes have suicidal ideation and in fact how many what of women wait wait what 20% is it like 47% have tried like antidepressant people who have sex for money the rates of

Trent Hornpost-traumatic stress disorder among these individuals are on par with combat veterans and think about how much suicide afflicts combat veterans and the statistic for that specifically though according to this study is that there's

Lila Rosean increase in risk for suicide attempt of 41% % versus the average of 29% so that 10% increase for those involved in prostitution psychotic episodes 41%

Lila Roseversus 27% HIV a 6% to 1% other STDs like hepatitis STDs 11% to 2% emergency room visits 44% to 34% so the reality is

Lila Roseif now we're talking from the point of view of is it is sex work good or harmful excuse me for the prostitute it is very here's the problem you're never going to eliminate that women are going to do prostitution but we have all the

Jazmen Jafardata now let me finish let me finish now no it is though because you're not going to get there's always going to be people that are going to supply this and when we criminalize it or when we yeah and when we but if there was

Jazmen Jafarcertain things that policy decisions that we could make that could decrease negative effects for these proes because there's over 42 million of them according to the data that we have and the studies show that decrim and legalized location so consistent

Jazmen Jafarimproved condom use this is a big study 2021 in the quarterly Journal of Economics 7 work siiz censes at Four Points in time pre pre-m post announcement uh but still pre-m post Crim and 5 years post Crim not only show

Jazmen Jafarthat STD rates go down for those people but overall in there's that society as well also the crime rates and the amount of violence perpetrated against the prostitutes both by police and by their clients goes up the more you criminal

Lila Rosethe question that we are asking ourselves today is sex work is sex work harmful is sex work bad and I just read data that shows that if you are involved

Lila Rosein prostitution you are at higher risk for suicidal idation for you're at higher risk for um being and then also here's a study that talks about the higher risk of being sexually assaulted or rap being a lawyer increases your

Trent Hornlikelihood of substance abuse increases your suicide increases your likelihood of depression is being a lawyer bad we need professionals to defend us in a courtroom men don't need professionals to have orgasms they can do that themselves if they need it well said the

Jazmen Jafarproblem is the point is sex work is not needed for a society the way that but it always going to be there it's always going to be there you could snap your fingers get maybe I would take that but

Jazmen Jafarwe have to be practical like I said in order to say if something is good or bad you have to look at what happens if you try to come in and take it and all of the all of the evidence many that's not even a question we're asking about how

Lila Roseto regulate or make it illegal Etc we're asking is it is it is it let me just finish we're asking is it harmful right and we're saying we're showing data and explaining that it is harmful you're you're saying well being an attorney can

Lila Rosebe harmful the position here is well you don't need we don't a society doesn't need sex work the way that it needs doesn't prostition athletes are universally hared let me resp and then your response to that as well it's

Lila Roseinevitable there's always going to be something okay so he's being lawyer bad for the lawyer itself okay so my question is let meish please let me finish you let me finish you always interrupt me murder murder is inevitable

Lila Roseit still happens even though it's against the law right rape sexual assault is inevitable it still happens though against the law the inevitability argument that something will still happen to some degree even if it's

Lila Roseregulated restricted made illegal Etc isn't an argument for why it's good or bad and our argument today that the position we're taking is that this thing is bad so I have a question talking you were talking about how oh it's really

Jazmen Jafarbad for the actual sex workers and I'm saying okay being a lawyer is bad for the actual lawyer so my question to you is if the data showed that having sex work or having porn actually led to less violence in society and Le like if the data showed that then would it be good

Trent Hornbecause you're saying we need lawyers if having sex workers the data did show that would that change your position no because we shouldn't exploit people just to make Society a better place okay we shouldn't treat people like Commodities we shouldn't do evil so good may come so

Trent Hornlike I have a question about keeping I don't understand how that doesn't apply to athlet when it when it comes well you're like for Fighters you're literally watching two people your analogy with how is that not commodification no your analogy would

Trent Hornwork if we actually had gladiatorial combat where people used to have in ancient Rome where somebody is going to kill another person and let's say you you figure out hey you know it turns out when we have Gladiator matches like

Destinyviolence goes down it's a cathartic release when people watch the I reject the analogy we're not I'm saying that when two people yes when two people we don't you don't need to make an analogy to my analogy I'm saying that very clearly two people fighting on stage we

Destinyare commodifying their bodies they undergo severe physical trauma all of their health care or health lifetime uh outcomes fall dramatically right CTE among other things if an athlete

Trent Hornhadum would agree that be outlawed why I'm very sympathetic to regulating uh professional football because of the rate of concussive injuries especially among minors so I agree with your point

Trent Hornbut the level of harm that a prostitute undergoes is Way Beyond what a lawyer underg goes even what a professional athlete under goes it's the mental harm on par with like a combat veteran or let me finish or for example the question I

Trent Hornhad for jasine was since 2002 where prostitution is legal in Germany how many prostitutes have been murdered do you know I don't have that data in front of me but I know it's 69 how many have been murdered in Sweden in that time I don't know I could we could go one and

Trent Hornit was by a jealous exboyfriend because Sweden cuts the demand and makes it a bad place that even sex traffi real quick what is the population of Germany it's much large it's larger but how much larger like 10 times how how it's not 10

Trent Horntimes larger what is the population Germany I don't know even if you control look it up yeah look it up even if at least five times larer even if you control for the population differences that are involved no sex worker has been

Trent Hornkilled by a client in Sweden since they established the Nordic model in 199 83 million by the way none okay so it's like N9 to 10 times larger than isn't Sweden like 9 million or something wa wait real quick real on

Destinythis athlete thing okay I'm going back to this okay 10 million if you want to compare athletes to prostitutes yes that's not a fair comparison we could compare Street Fighters you did it no no no no hold on you're saying that

Destinyprostitutes have these negative outcomes in athlete Stone athletes would be the equivalent to like a brothel that's legalized if you want to compare prostitutes to Illegal athletes you'd look at like Street Fighters or something I think that the outcomes of

Trent Hornno but it's the the studies show the harm among prostitutes even in places where prostitution has been legalized and pro and brothel are allowed you still have the mental health effects you still have the physical effects you have people that have anal muscles being torn out of them because they have sex with

Trent Horn10 guys in a night nobody I'd rather do MMA with with I'd rather have m punch me in the face do that the cas that I brought up of Joshua Brom and his friends they were not even prostitutes they were in the

Lila Roseporn industry that's awesome okay so horrible and that's the point I mean okay suicide the question is because of Despair connected to a lifestyle that's living out of reality of using your B body and constantly abusing your body

Destinythat's the that's the problem here okay wait wait okay we if you are saying um I just want to get this statement to CLA you're telling me that the outcomes for prostitutes that work in legal brothel is the same as the outcome for

Destinyprostitutes that work outside in illegal areas that they're the same yeah no that's not what he said he said I'm I'm just saying that they're that they're negative they're worse than other occupations okay so then are the outcomes of prostitutes that work in

Trent Hornbrothels better than the outcome of prostitutes that work outside of BR we don't know because the you're not even going to make an educated guest you have no idea we don't know because the circumstances of brothel in different

Destinycountries and different regions some of them are tightly regulated and have different behavor I'm saying one city in one area you're telling me that you think that prostitutes that work in

Trent HornLegally regulated brothels have the same outcomes as prostitutes they the same they have different degrees different degrees of outcomes probably one might be more likely to have substance abuse than the other but it's still higher

Jazmen Jafarit's still higher than the general population okay you do not when it comes to data you guys are not like this is associations between sex work laws and sex workers Health a systematic review amend analysis of quantitative and qualitative studies demonstrate sex

Jazmen Jafarworkers who have exposed to repressive policing including the Nordic model where significantly more likely to experience violence from clients than others there's a lot of studies that show this the Nordic model increases violence that's not true in in the in the Nordic model for example it showed

Jazmen Jafarthat certain acts of violence increase like hair pulling or slapping but other acts of violence like rape actually drop by 50% drug use is more frequently reported in studies from criminalized and partially criminalized settings which would be the Nordic Model A study explicitly comparing Health Service

Jazmen Jafaraccess between decriminalized legalized and criminalized settings experience the poorest health and safety outcomes with greater investment in health promotion prog programs and occupational health and safety measures in decriminalized and regulated settings so you guys do

Jazmen Jafarnot win the data war on if criminalizing sex work we're talking about criminalization talking talk model is better I'll you another model is not

Trent Hornbetter outcomes to sex workers you cannot argue that the Nordic model is helping sex workers more than de a 2003 study by Farley at all in seven

Trent Horncountries showed that 89% of prostitutes want to quit their job but can't because of financial reasons same bet if you look at janitors and and people who scrub toilet do you have any data on that that they that they don't

Trent Hornwant to work I I can probably find something what the job satis let me put it this way is it bad that so if somebody wants to stop doing something and they can't so it sounds like we have

Trent Hornwomen the majority of them want to stop having sex with men but they can't it sounds like we're facilitating rape on a mass scale then I don't think that's rape right I'm not saying that there're are prostitutes who would someone is no

Trent Hornno no if someone's a prostitute who feels like they need to do this for money and they can't quit cuz they need that money and a man comes and pays to have sex with them you don't think their consent has been infringed no I think that yes sex workers I'm sure a lot of

Jazmen Jafarprostitutes would rather be rock stars okay that's not the are they consent are they fully they're consenting just like somebody who doesn't want to make you a sandwich but doesn't have a choice is going to make you so when a Hollywood actress consents to the executive producer having sex with him because

Jazmen Jafarshe's worried about losing the role that's not right that's completely different because she in with sex work you are saying hey this is my job I will have sex with you if you pay me how what do you so what how is that it's because

Trent Hornthese women don't it's not voluntary like well I'd rather I'd rather go somewhere else and make money they feel like because they can't get employment and or or because they have previous sex

Trent Hornsorry previous prostitution and Drug convictions prevent them from getting other bur King if you were a prostitute you can't get you can't get a job in a lot of places that's why de is really great because in New Zealand where they did that the

Jazmen Jafarcriminals records Clean Slate Act of 2004 sex workers can have past prostitution related offenses expunged from their records places where going going back to my example with the executive producer and the actress would

Trent Hornyou say that consent is something you can't fully have if the person you're having sex with controls whether you're paid or not no you can't consent you don't are consenting there because you didn't consent to that Arrangement what

Destinyif she went into it expecting that to happen if you went into it consenting to then fine yeah but that's well it's often expected and no hold on hold on something being expected and something being expected are two completely

Destinydifferent things well what if they went in there and they said this is part of what I want to do if they said on your contract you can write this you can do that blah blah blah and you also have sex with this guy then that's a

Destinylot to have sex with a secretary or not not even a boss loading so hard B Because secret doing a question hold on I'm not dodging question secretar don't sign you're not you're not listening to what I'm saying I didn't even ask the

Trent Hornquestion I didn't even get through to the question because you we could pick another example like an audition where you're not currently imployed and the director says yeah I want to get you in this movie but you know I got to see if you really look the parts you know if

Trent Hornyou can really pull off these sex scenes and so she's not employed yet but she would really like to get this job and really needs it there's certainly coercion and we would say that that's that's rape right there if everything is

Destinybroadcast out in the open and it's like part of share you can say you can say that it's scummy or it feels wrong or whatever but is it coercion no you're walking into there you're accepting the job you're likeing okay it I'll do it like if that's something that comes like at the end of

Lila Rosethe process like oh by the way you got to me oh by the way you got do this then yeah you can say that's coercive so you think it's acceptable for a boss to um make a move on a employee provided

Destinythe employee consents and his during the like during the interview process why would that be wrong do I can explain consent to you if you I guess cuz you're religious you don't understand it so the reason why it's wrong is because consent

Trent Horncan't be negotiated between parties that have power over you but what if you went in there with the analysis that this might end up happening in this might end up happening is not this is part contract we understand we understand consent because you're us you're

Destinypolyamorous you don't understand the danger expl I have to explain I have to explain I have now we've seen what's happened from that I have to explain okay no you went after us I'll go after you no no hold on you're asking me why can an employee not consent to having

Destinysex with a boss the reason why you can't do that is because you cannot determine if consent exists there because you don't know the employee say let me finish you don't understand the topic so let me finish okay the employee doesn't know the employ then stop trying to cut me off and I'm trying to explain

Destinysomething the employee cannot consent because the employee doesn't know if they say no if they're going to get fired that's why you can't have consent between people overpower but if the job says you have to do X Y and Z and Z is having sex that's not of the same type

Lila Roseof consent as in the middle of a nonsexual job your boss is trying to get you to have sex but to Trend scenario if you're going into this and it's a scene that involves sex scenes and and the boss says this is what something we're going to do to practice the sex scene

Destinywould you consider that a problem if it's advertised as part of the job then no if it's sprung on you and you weren't expecting it then yes sounds like Harvey win SC should just been more forthright then yes unironically yes we we can compare podcast we can compare podcast

Destinyon the podcast world if there was a podcast and the guy brought on women and the guy brought on women no that was the problem the issue if there was a if there was a if there was a movie studio and the studio says we've got a producer and he'll make movies but you got to him to do it would that be scummy

Destinyyeah of course would it be kind of like slimy maybe une kind of weird or whatever sure but would it be like non-consensual no you're signing up for it you literally are saying okay I'll go and I'll do making it scummy and bad I'm sure it's injuring consent in some way I

Destinythink it's scummy because like a guy having sex with women in order like get them job is kind of like a scummy thing but it's a not a reason that's just an opinion it is that's what scummy is scummy is an opinion it's also scummy if you said you have to strug my toilet say

Trent Hornthat that sect Act is bad because it makes you feel bad I didn't say it was bad I said it was scummy yeah so is that a is that a term of a negative moral evaluation it's like a it's like a moral non-cognitivist position of like this act that's just like yeah it's not like

Jazmen Jafara it's not like a strong statement on if it's unethical but we can say nonon a problem with it I don't know if you have a problem it's just scummy just like if someone said oh you have to scrub my toilets in order to get this job and in order to get this job that has nothing

Trent Hornto do with sex but it's still really scum it's not acceptable it has nothing SE no they're both exploitative that's exploitative of cheap labor that's un you know not related to an acting role and the other is sexual exploitation all

Destinyforms of all forms of Labor are exploitative nobody would work if they didn't have to and I thought you weren't a communist no but using your definition all forms of Labor are exploitative nobody nobody wants to be a janitor nobody wants to work at McDonald's nobody wants to yeah no one wants to

Lila Rosemake you a sandwich a Subway like it's it's all exploitative right if those people had other Alternatives they wouldn't do it no I think a lot of people who choose SE choose it because it's the best differ when you work at McDonald's or even if you work as a

Trent Hornjanitor there's tremendous dignity and honor in that work to you yeah what you do is something you're proud of that you can even a janitor can bring their kids and say hey look at this Timmy it's all

Trent Hornclean and great your old man did a good job I doubt you'd want to bring your kids to bring your kids to work day for you I don't have kids what if you did I doubt they would you do bring your kids to work I if I ran a casino or if I ran a bar and there was drunk people

Trent Horneverywhere I wouldn't take my kid into the bar with me either that doesn't mean me being a bartender or me running a bar if you run a bar that has a bunch of drunk people you're actually doing something wrong bartenders should not facilitate open drunkenness on their property even a casino that's something

Trent Hornthat's fine but I I think that this is very this is once again sex work is is not work it's not and it's not good and I mean if you're an obstetrician or a gynecologist would you want to bring your kids to work to show the vagina

Jazmen Jafarthose are sexual organs that have part that because they're sexual organs you should no you should just keep sex away from kids and you might show them the hospit if you run a dispensary should you bring your kids in no one's doing anything wrong I'm just buying weed it's legal is that something you want to

Trent Hornbring your kids into that's not necessarily wrong I think you can treat uh it would depend on this however I think that if you are concerned about a child adopting a behavior that could be

Trent Horndestructive to them whether it's alcohol or marijuana then you might not show that to them but I think that shows that it's not great for your position that there is something destructive in some way about pornography and prostitution

Lila Roseyou wouldn't want to bring your kids to see it there's something damaging I think the other thing that's just so sad about the conversation is we're we're you know getting down into these different cases of how horrible these different things are by degrees and I

Lila Rosethink the qu the reality is sex is a good thing sex is a beautiful thing sex is an amazing thing and the problem the fundamental issue that Trent and I have been proposing here about sex work being

Lila Roseharmful would you bring your 8-year-old to see you have SE just so let me finish it commoditized it it objectifies the people involved it takes sex out of the context where sex belongs which is in

Jazmen Jafarlove and I believe in marriage you said this like but my point is that okay you just said that bringing your child to work because sex work is bad would you bring your child in while you and your husband have sex of course for the

Jazmen Jafarreason the same reason re SE is bad but that's you just said that my child the reason that it's bad is because I wouldn't bring my kid in to watch me have sex you wouldn't bring

Lila Roseyour kid in to watch you have sex in this great loving wonderful proper use of sex either that doesn't I'm not doing work when I'm having sex with my husband I'm expressing love I'm not being paid by him I'm expressing love so then why

Lila Rosewhy bring your child in there because it sex is private between two people that's how it's designed and that's what it should be I me and that's that's one of the reasons why pornography is so harmful and one of the reasons why sex

Trent Hornbecause because we can confidently say exposing children to sex is bad just is because they're that's something their brains are not prepared to maral sex though even exposing that to marital sex

Lila Rosebetween the people not I don't think it's a good argument to say that because children can't come with you to your porn site children the point of asking that question and TR going along that line of reasoning was to show there is a difference between

Lila Rosethe work of the noble work of being a janitor and I would say to look down on people who work in a fast food restaurant or look down on a janitor to say that they just want to get out of the job is a horrible job yeah there difficulties but to say it's a horrible

Lila Rosejob there's nobility to that work there is not nobility to selling your of your body to someone else your morals there's this is Noble this is morality around sex there's morality around sex and you would even agree with that you would

Lila Roseeven agree that there is some morality around sex would you not is there what do you mean yeah of course there's some morality there's some morality around janitor there's some morality to being a right you have there certain regulations so far the only morality I've been able to ascertain from both of you is that

Destinythere should be consent between two adults is that the only morality that you believe exists around sex that's a huge starting point yes is that the only morality that you believe exists around sex I I can't answer yes to that because I'm sure we can think of some exceptions or there might be some other qualifier well youve thought about it a lot

Destinyclearly and we're at this debate yeah but if you're going to ask me hypothetical like what if you have sex with somebody it causes the fusion of two atoms and a hydrogen bomb exp I don't know in general I think most most I think most morality is going to be built around a reciprocation of

Destinyconsensual respect for other people yes how about consensual incest among adults how if you want to do it if you have a really hot sister then go for no harm not reproduce I have a question related to that so incest is okay I got a

Jazmen Jafarquestion and beastiality is okay speak say I don't think we should be doing any of those harm to animals an animal's consenting then BC is okay but I don't think an animal I think I would rather live in there's no way there's no way for the

Jazmen Jafaranimal to consent just like there's no way for a child to consent Trent was trying to be like oh but we do all these other experients on animals we shouldn't do that I think and you said oh which one's worse it depends it depends some of the experients we do to animals are horrible we literally take out their

Jazmen Jafarovaries we do all I would rather I would rather if I was you know I think sometimes even having sex with animals is better than some of the we do to animals like moving their ovaries around killing them

Trent Hornliterally killing them in order to does a dog consent to being trained what does a dog consent to being potty trained wait a minute are are you saying you're saying that sex with animals is not as bad as killing them

Jazmen Jafarwhat do you mean I sex did you just say that killing them is worse I think killing animals is I don't it depends right it depends what you think say that one more time what do you want me to say just the way you said it wait like what did you say killing animals is worse

Destinythan no I'm saying sometimes the experence you can buy The Bu yes I think probably generally yeah why what's the next question how could you possibly flip that do you disagree do you think that having sex with an animal is is worse than killing yes it is worse

Trent Hornbecause because animals are non-rational beings that we can eat there's nothing immoral about that sex is for human beings and I'm sorry you guys you think the SE so you think the SE because we're not religious so you think that no

Trent Hornyou're note you're insane person so wait who is the sex worse for versus The Killing worst for are you just looking at the persective human and not the animal at all or who is it no I'm talking about the ACT you're reframing it as it what causes more or less harm

Destinyno no you said sex for an animal is worse than killing the animal I'm asking you worse for for an animal I think I'm asking who wor Act of Killing an animal

Trent Hornis sorry the act of sex with an animal is morally worse than the Act of Killing the animal so and the only thing that has any moral perspective in your eyes would be the human yes because not the

Trent Hornonly thing there are ways to treat animals that are immoral like animal torture killing them is it is it immoral it can be immoral to kill an animal if you're doing it for a Cru for a cruel purpose or an inhumane way cruel in

Trent Hornwhose judgement no let's say you're if you're stuck on a desert island and there's let's say that we're I would like to if you're stuck on a desert island and you I was I'm talking about stuck on a desert island it's very obvious like you're killing an animal to

Trent Horneat it for burgers because it tastes good and it feels good no the here's the example if you kill if you're stuck in a desert island and you find a wild pig there and you kill it to eat that's not morally wrong if because you want to

Trent Hornsatisfy hunger if you're on the island and it turns out you're just horny and you use the pig to satisfy that yes that is morally worse is it morally worse if you just hunt to kill an animal just for fun is morally worse than what then is

Destinyit morally worse to kill an animal because you just want to hunt for fun than yeah two people go into the forest one guy's hunting with a spear one guy's hunting with his dick who's more immoral there the guy that stabs the pig and kills or the guys that runs theal and

Destinyit which one is more imoral bigbe I'm asking no I want to answer I want to answer what's more unethical the guy hunting with a spear or the guy hunting with a dick the guy that throw this a spear more ethical to kill the animal

Trent Hornthan leave it is Gravely much more Gravely depraved to have sex with an animal than to kill it in a slightly is not question and the reason for that the reason for that is what the

Lila Rosereason for that is that you want to eat the animal our is that our position is that sex with animals what this viad our position is that sex with animals is always wrong my understanding of your position is that it's only well

Lila Rosepotentially wrong because animal can't consent depends I asked you can your dog is your does your dog consent when you train him to uh use the go to the bathroom not any more than your child

Lila Roseconsents to it okay so you're saying that you can train your the dog doesn't consent to some things the dog you're you're saying the dog is a child and that's why it's wrong to have sex with the dog that's your say that if we're talking about consent The Way We Know It

Jazmen Jafarinformed consent I don't think there's any evidence to show that a dog can give you informed consent but no back to my other example can kids work for the police can kids work for the police kids can't work in general no can dogs work for the police

Trent Hornyes okay so it seems like it's a difference there you can place them in a dangerous life-threatening situation for the common good of society and we see nothing immoral about that what's wrong with sex with them they don't consent to work with working yeah they if they can't consent

Trent Hornto sex they can't consent to work for the cops but we see they can work for the cops so why can't they do the lesser harm what's the Lesser harm sex having sex because they could die in their jobs in the police force I I mean if if there

Jazmen Jafarwas some evidence out that dogs working for police officers and stuff was like really bad like that's the thing with animals it's really cuz we don't know what they're able what they understand what's good for them what's not good for them if there was evidence that working

Trent Hornfor police officers was really causing a lot of harm to dogs then I would say that's bad we shouldn't have them so you need a social uh you need a scientific paper to tell you whether it's good for animals for people to have sex with them

Jazmen JafarI just said it's not I never said that it's good for I just said that I just said that there's a lot of up you said oh well there's all this up we do to animals we should do why not have sex with I'm saying we shouldn't do any of the up to animals that's my position what's inconsistent about that let's say

Lila Rosehypothetically there's a small handful of dogs who die in the line of duty there's just like the most dangerous job is logging Should humans not be able to toog but the point of where we're the

Jazmen Jafarpoint the question here is why is it okay to employ a dog without their consent but to your point consent is important when my point is that we shouldn't be doing a lot of animals I

Lila Rosenever said that having sex with them is okay I also said that testing on them testing the limits of your moral belief and what I'm saying is you're saying it's okay for dogs to work what is what are you saying that I disagree with what are you saying that I disagree I just

Lila Rosedon't understand what you're saying can I finish my question you're saying that it's okay for a dog to work for the police even if there's maybe a teeny bit of harm but largely speaking you don't want them to be harmed but it's okay for a dog to work for the police but it's not okay for a dog to do sex work for

Lila Rosefor a human being yeah because they don't consent for sex work they don't consent for work to the police so why would it why is it it's not all about with sex work it's all about what so you're saying that because we allow dogs

Jazmen Jafarto work ask you a question I'll my position is this if there is any action that we're doing especially if it's not producing a good to society because I think that does you think that sex work produces a tremendous good you keep talking about

Lila Rosehow good it is so if let's say that there are people that enjoy sex with animals and there are people who enjoy sex with animals and your argument so far is it's not okay we don't need we let me just finish it's not okay cuz the

Lila Rosedog doesn't consent the dog does not consent to work for the police why is it not okay for a dog to do sex work because I think that when you're talking about working for the police those dogs actually their lives are better A lot of

Jazmen Jafarwhat time what if they're doing what if they're treated like a king in their sex work job if no that's the thing if I had any evidence that having sex with these dogs is something these dogs enjoyed and liked I would say it's fine I don't know dog dogs seem to get pretty they seem to get pretty humpy about things that's the

Jazmen Jafarthing I'm I care about the harm to the animal that is my position my position is to or if the yes if if this is my this is my thing if we can show that there is a harm to the animal being done then I

Jazmen Jafarwould say it's bad this is my position if we can show that there is no harm or that the dog enjoys it or that the dog is better off if we could show that that was what's going on with beastiality so you are okay with fality as long as it appears that the animal en I didn't say

Jazmen Jafarit appears that's the problem is that as long as that animal orgasms I didn't say that either well what then how then how I don't think right now that's why I said I don't believe I don't think we should do Beal right now because we have no way of knowing I don't think orgm

Jazmen Jafarbecause people orgasm when they get raped too that's not a good way deter whether for the police officer in general it seems that he does if we're looking at what seems he does in general when we're looking at when we're looking at what is a dog like what what things

Jazmen Jafarcan a dog have that makes it seem like their life is better and if we there was any way to show that if you them all the time and they're enjoying it and it's making their lives better I would say go for it doesn't have to well it doesn't have to be penetrative beastiality we understand the immorality

Trent Hornof it even things of you know when the dog um arouses a person's genitals things like that and I'm not pulling this out of thin air like I said earlier there Peter Singer a famous philosopher was sharing this and defending it on his Twitter he's a world famous philosopher

Trent Hornthis is not and when you search for this stuff you find it everywhere people might say oh it's why are you bringing up this Fringe thing why this Fringe thing well look homosexual pornography was probably Fringe 80 years ago and the

Lila Rosereason another reason why consent is such a um is such a weak foundation for sexual morality as it's whole whole you know saying oh as long as there's consent we're good is you can chip away at it from every other angle too and

Lila Roseanimals we just went through this exercise but we can chip away at it for children I mean we've drawn this line 18 17 16 do you have any arguments for adult consenting adults or is it all children and animals that you have to go

Lila Roseto we I've made arguments several times and you you said it again about why sex is not just about consent sex is about so much more than consent sex is about love sex is about intimacy and sex is

Lila Roseabout the PO children bring life into the world so but that's for what's your that's for how sex is designed Jasmine whether you like it not that was the way it's designed and that's the way it's supposed to work then we're going all be Dev Destin admitted this earlier saying

Lila Rosethat's the design of sex even if it's a design of sex sex inevitably can bring about emotional connection of course it can bring about that but it inevitably also it can it can I agree that it can but it doesn't have but it doesn't have

Jazmen Jafarto if this was the design then there wouldn't be so many people that want to deviate from it and do if this was just design right we didn't just malfunction and deci actually I don't want this this isn't out for me let me try these other forms if this was

Jazmen Jafarthe way it's designed right food is designed to for us to eat we don't you know use it any other way the reason we use sex other that's like saying our bodies are designed for example to have

Trent Horna certain amount of salt and sugar probably uh but think about it tons of people eat way more salt and sugar than their bodies were designed to handle

Trent Hornbecause we live in a time when salt and sugar and fat we have ACC

Jazmen Jafarwe too much in excess yes and I think pornography if you use it in a way that impacts your life then you shouldn't do it if you're Catholic you probably shouldn't watch porn the results seem pretty bad you care your doesn't mean

Jazmen Jafarthat doesn't mean that porn is bad just like the dut and the bag of chips is not bad because in moderation it doesn't seem to have these effects where same thing with porn When there's less than 5% of people that even report having these problems a lot of them tend to be religious and moral incongruence is a

Jazmen Jafarnumber one predictor of having these issues those people shouldn't use it doesn't make the actual thing bad yeah I don't think it's about being religious per se or not I think it's about human nature huge but that has a huge imp has an impact because typically relig that's

Lila Rosehuman nature then how come such a small percentage of people have an issue with let me finish typically people who are religious try to ascertain and live by a

Lila Rosecertain moral code that's more than just make sure there's consent okay and so that's where you seem to have a rub and you're just saying well they're just religious no they're people that have taken the time to understand themselves

Lila Roseand try to understand others to say more than consent is what's good for me you and Society the position of Trent and I I would have this position even without being Catholic and before I became cathol this my question is the vast

Jazmen Jafarmajority of people can have actually probably less people than when you look at porn can enjoy processed foods can enjoy all this in moderation it doesn't affect the vast vast majority of people are consuming porn and you can't show me

Jazmen Jafarwhere it harms them because you think sex is is beautiful and between two people but that's not an answer I want to know what the outcomes are if the majority time yeah and we actually I have we could SP a lot more

Trent Hornyou actually made our point that people do they they're not dying from processed foods but if you look at the average American who's eating them they're really suffering from a lot of things from negative Health rates they're not dying much the same way to say that

Trent Hornpornography and prostitution is bad for society it doesn't have to make you a debilitated wreck that can't do anything you're just less healthy when it comes to sexual so the average porn Watcher is less

Lila Rosehealthy in what ways like where are you getting this how are they stud of the 22 studies that showed that there's an increase in aggression for younger people who I have a study that a study that shows that 20% of all relationships

Lila Roseconsider a point of conflict the porn use of one of the partners 20% Rel stud of the prostitutes involved in the prostitution industry and the harm that they experience if I show 30 of his

Jazmen Jafarfriends committed suicide Psy like I've never heard of someone who has if 30 of your friends in any industry commit suicide I don't know who you're hanging it sounds like a very broken industry and that's unfortunately

Brian Atlasthe pornography industry today or he was a secret Russian assassin I do need to uh read a couple chats and I think we have to wrap up here pretty soon so we had a chat here from legate Jr hey thank

Brian Atlasyou thank you man for Team D Jen if the number of people identifying as sex workers increased by 5% every year for the next decade would you say that we would be dealing with a social contagion

Jazmen Jafarwould sex work still be good or at least not bad CH Nation for life so I mean there's been actually a middle class shift into sex work like I think even I'm like an example of this except even

Jazmen JafarI'm like there now that it's become safer and it's become more accessible more people are doing it and I'm not seeing that causing more harm in any way if you look at I I don't see any data showing that since the proliferation of

Jazmen Jafarporn especially since only fans that it has led to any negative outcomes other than like podcasts like this bring a lot of us on I think that as more people enter the sexual Marketplace so while only fans you say like it's safer yeah

Trent Hornyou're not you're not directly under the thumb of a pimp or something like that but as more people enter the camming market there is a pressure there similar to what we see among YouTube content creators that you have to do more uh outrageous things to get attention

Trent Hornbecause there's more people in the marketplace vying for that attention and so there's a pressure not made from a pimp but the pressure of other people on the marketplace to do more sex acts that are about this yourself jine one of your interviews that you had Fairly recently

Jazmen Jafaryou talked about how you're asked to do these scripts that seem odd and that involve a but that's that was from the beginning too and actually I do less of those things now but you're being you've been asked there's no evidence that people

Jazmen Jafarthat want to join only fans are now feeling pressured to do because let me tell you as someone who's a very successful only fans creator that started from nothing the goal is just exposure getting on different social media and getting lucky it's not like oh here's a video of me the most popular only fans creators aren't super popular

Trent Hornbecause they're like hey watch me have sex with a horse now and that's what made me super popular no what makes them what makes them popular is still things like you know being able to insert an entire fist in the anus I have I a top 1% only F Creator I have never done

Destinyanything like that the top only F Creator you know amaranth I think amaranth I don't I could be wrong I don't look like her sh she hasn't even shown a nipple has she a lot of the top only fans creators actually just do solo work nothing that crazy I have never

Jazmen Jafardone anything that crazy I do people do that I'm sure some I'm sure some people do but I don't think there's any any in the most successful people only fans do the most do you do you expand your anus for clients because that's

Jazmen Jafarsomething they get off on saying they ask me I say no all the time especially as I make all the time is the point here so you on your YouTube channel that you do that that I spread my anus I mean I can spread it but for instance a lot of people ask me to do butt plugs toys I

Jazmen Jafarhave never in my life done that and that's not because I don't think it's a moral I understand in a are many girls that don't necessarily have the more popular thing to and none of the popular only fans creators do it then I don't

Lila Roseunderstand how this there's many there's many women and girls and men and boys involved in trafficking certainly pornography maybe not it's so hard to do trafficking on only things you literally

Lila Rosehave to have a bank account can I finish and they are uh exposed to and exploited to very degrading act actions and activities and so that's the that's the

Jazmen Jafarpoint that we're making is that there is an appetite for that and these things and that's why only fans is so great because you are in complete control of what you say to do and not do and when you look at the most successful only fans creators they are not the ones

Jazmen Jafardoing these most intense things if you look at them actually L of I understand that but I don't think there's any fear that they can't have a in certain things like even the Nordic model has led to people being

Lila Roselike I don't have time I can't negotiate now my circumstances because it's it's basically I think you're living in a in a bubble of unreality you are one of the very simp you one of the very few of

Lila Rosecreators that can largely call the shots and many women though involved in exploitive sex work involved in both in this country and internationally are not the shot caller there you have it here

Brian Atlaswe got two more chats and we do got to wrap up here pretty soon we have dog shite poster 69 if people need to use artificial devices to prevent pregnancy

Brian Atlascondoms pills Etc then obvious sex is primarily designed for reproduction okay okay there's a comment there and then we finally have pulling

Brian Atlasit up here in just a moment we have ibben Pro is forcing an electrician to wire your house at gunpoint equally as

Brian Atlasbad as forcing a uh sorker to sleep with you at gunpoint why why not and we'll this will be our final thing I think I think um a criminal code would say it is

Trent Hornworse uh forcing someone uh to you know to do something I think for example that we have an entire category of sex crimes we don't have eating crimes have

Trent Hornbreathing crimes the fact that we have sex crimes that a rape that is done when someone is unconscious and they don't they it doesn't cause pain is treated worse in the law than maybe simple assault that does cause pain to a person

Lila Rosebecause sex is just a very very different thing than any anything else well and it's the same reason why if you tap someone on the shoulder in the workplace that might be seen as a normal activity hello are you there if you tap someone on the crotch it's sexual

Lila Roseassault there's something clearly different about sex and and using your body for sex and then other things like you know electrical wiring or whatever it is we have Aaron Martinez here fake

Brian Atlaslawyer maybe now you are refusing the crazy degrading stuff but as you hit the W as you hit the wall and it's coming fast and your money stream runs dry you will I don't think so I mean I'm pretty sure I mean I make seven figures a year

Jazmen Jafarif I was if I was two years you're only two years in yeah and I've made more money than I could have made in a decade in law so I probably what's more likely is I'll retire by the the time I hit the wall and I'll live out my life like and

Jazmen JafarI know I get it I'm privileged but this is always just like a dumb AR again the argument the argument that I should be working as a lawyer for 50 years but this I only have a few years like saying professional athletes when they hit the that's not the argument about what you

Lila Roseshould do whether you choose between how much money you make as an attorney or an O the question is is sex work good for society or bad for society I don't think there's any evidence that it's bad you just said you're very privileged your case is extremely unique yeah but that

Lila Rosewas that was that was me I know so again living in on the reality of that there are many many many many other women and children and even boys and men who are experiencing not what you're

Jazmen Jafarexperiencing experiencing what the statistics bear out in the pain of both prostitution and pornography but that's the thing there are a lot of people who choose sex work because it's the best option for them and they don't want to do those other jobs majority of sex

Lila Roseworkers they're doing sex work because they don't want to work another job or they don't have access to another job taking this away from them it's not going to that was the case of my friend Joshua broom he wasn't able to get the jobs he was looking for in Hollywood and so he got stucked into the porn industry that's a tragedy not a success story of

Jazmen Jafarcourse I would rather have everyone who's doing porn to be as lucky as me and that's what they want to do but the reality is people take jobs that they can get people always take the best job that they can get and for some people that is sex work just like for some

Destinypeople a lot a lot of people a lot of people would I thought you said Joshua Bloom was a success story no the point was he wasn't successful in Hollywood you said you said a tragedy not it sounds like a

Destinysuccess story doesn't he have a family he's happily married porn industry he almost killed himself while staying in the porn industry what if he wouldn't have gone a Dr he would have actually killed himself which one do you think was better I mean I'm glad he left and he lived no no let's say that he would have killed himself because he couldn't

Lila Rosefind jobs or became homeless and got Mis understand his story no I'm not misunderstanding I'm asking Joshua broom if he had a Cher the porn industry he struggled to make it as an actor in Hollywood you said it seven times now I know 30 of his friends K

Destinythemselves I know horrible epidemic of suicides around him I'm asking you what if instead of getting a job in the sex industry what if you would just been homeless and got addicted heroin which one you think would better hom addicted

Lila Rosesaypo homeless or sex work are think that if someone is forced into sex work Destiny because otherwise they would be homeless and on heroin that is another reason why sex work is bad for society and we should instead work on helping

Destinypeople work homeless we all agree here I think all of us agree here we're all which one is worse though which one which one is worse both bad they're both that's not an answer to which one is worse so they're equally bad sex is work because

Destinyby what measure do you think if Joshua blon would have become homeless and addicted to smack do you think that he would have had the same chance of finding a wife and kids or I know people who are former Dre you didn't answer the question all you said like well I know or I feel I I'm just asking question

Destinysilly even if it is worse that doesn't make sex work I didn't say I just wanted to know if you can even admit what are you trying to prove this thing is I'm just well it should be an easy question answer you're sitting here saying like do you think it's ethical to have a simulated child pornography being

Trent Hornmasturbated while you get eaten out by a horse and youed your shot at saying what's worse being a hit man or being homeless I can answer that question we I can engage that wor child sexual assault material is everywhere so it's not this

DestinyRand I just curious you could answer the question what's worse being homeless and addicted to heroin or doing sex work I just curious you answer that I think they're both har I think I think it's a worse crime to be raped than it is to

Brian Atlashave to be homeless yeah and I consider it raped because the exploitation of that's well said let's do this um why don't we each give you a one minute closing state and then we're going to wrap up the show Trent you start then

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