Destiny, Jazmen Jafar VS Lila Rose, Trent Horn DEBATE | Whatever Debates #3

Date: 2023-12-08

Duration: 3h 08m

Guests

Brian Atlas

DDestiny (Streamer)>

JJasmine Jafar >

Identified Speakers

SPEAKER_01Brian Atlas(host)

SPEAKER_02Destiny(guest)

SPEAKER_03Trent Horn(guest)

SPEAKER_04Jazmen Jafar(guest)

SPEAKER_05Lila Rose(guest)

Key Moments

OtherLila Rose opening position: sex has design toward intimacy and life; hedonistic view causes social ills including family breakdown.

“I think that sex is an amazing and beautiful thing and it has a design to it”

OtherJazmen Jafar opening position: sexual autonomy and freedom is positive; no compelling evidence sex work causes harm worse than other allowed activities.

“I think uh sex is a drive everybody has and there's always going to be a demand for consensual sexual services”

OtherTrent Horn opening position: sex work illegitimizes the term 'sex work'; pornography degrades sex's meaning leading to violent and degrading content.

“sex is a very important thing I think everybody nearly everybody agrees that sex is something that's really important”

QuoteJazmen cites meta-analysis: moral incongruence is the single best predictor of experiencing porn-related problems, not amount consumed.

“the number one determinant or the number one predictor of having bad experiences with porn or quote unquote porn addiction which the medical consensus is is not a thing is moral incongruence”

Key MomentTrent Horn presents Cho et al. 2013 study (150 countries): prostitution legalization increases human trafficking via scale effect dominating substitution effect.

“look up show at all CH a 2013 study covering 150 different countries showing an increase in human trafficking when prostitution is legalized”

ControversyBrian interjects to clarify the Whatever podcast does not endorse bestiality during philosophical tangent about consent and animals.

“I just I would just like to make a quick statement I just like to note the whatever podcast does not endorse beastiality”

Key MomentJazmen argues decriminalization improves outcomes: cites 2021 QJE study showing decriminalization reduces STDs and reduces violence against sex workers from police and clients.

“all the evidence shows that when you do start treating it like a job STD rates go down condom use goes up”

QuoteTrent: we should not exploit people to make society better; cannot do evil so good may come.

“we shouldn't exploit people just to make Society a better place we shouldn't treat people like Commodities we shouldn't do evil so good may come”

Key MomentTrent cites Farley et al. 2003: 89% of prostitutes want to quit but cannot due to financial constraints; argues this constitutes mass exploitation.

“a 2003 study by Farley at all in seven countries showed that 89% of prostitutes want to quit their job but can't because of financial reasons”

Key MomentLila cites mental health statistics for prostitutes: PTSD rates on par with combat veterans; suicide attempt rate 41% vs. 29% average; HIV 6x higher; emergency room visits significantly elevated.

“the statistic for that specifically according to this study is that there's an increase in risk for suicide attempt of 41% versus the average of 29%”

ControversyLila cites Joshua Bloom (former top-ranked porn actor): 30 of his close friends in the pornography industry died by suicide during his career.

“he shared about how during his time in the industry which was six or seven years 30 of his close friends took their lives”

Key MomentTrent cites Germany vs. Sweden prostitution murder statistics: 69 prostitutes murdered in Germany (legalized) vs. 0 client-related murders in Sweden (Nordic model) since 1999.

“how many prostitutes have been murdered since 2002 where prostitution is legal in Germany do you know I don't have that data in front of me but I know it's 69 how many have been murdered in Sweden in that time... none”

OtherTrent closing statement: look at what sex work actually is in practice; sex's power to bond and create life is undermined when treated as work.

“go online go and look at the most popular search for things on porn PornHub xHamster camsites what prostitutes say that men usually request from them it's violent degrading”

OtherLila closing statement: sex is beautiful but commodification and hedonism cause real harm; fighting for people to experience sex in the context of love and marriage.

“sex work pornography prostitution is bad for society it's bad for everybody involved”

OtherJazmen closing statement: harms exist but evidence does not justify restriction; sex workers deserve to be accepted and not criminalized.

“this isn't to say there are no harms associated with sex work this is just to say that just because there are some harms Associated”

OtherDestiny closing statement: debate grounds out in teleology of sex (religious vs. consent-based view); consent-based framework is preferable to avoid over-restriction.

“we didn't really get to it but I think like a lot of this conversation ends up grounding out in what we view sex as being for”

Topics Discussed

Opening positions: Is sex work bad for society?

Each debater gives opening statement. Destiny: sex work is a protected consensual transaction. Jazmen: sexual autonomy and freedom is positive. Lila Rose: sex has inherent design/meaning; hedonistic view causes social harm. Trent Horn: sex work degrades the meaning of sex, encouraging a harmful hedonistic worldview.

Pornography and social harms — data debate

Extended debate on whether porn causes measurable social harm. Destiny and Jazmen cite DSM-5 rejection of porn addiction, moral incongruence as main predictor of harm, studies showing women report higher satisfaction. Trent and Lila cite studies linking porn to increased sexual aggression across 22 countries, child sexual assault material proliferation, PornHub most-searched terms (teen/stepmom), and rising rape statistics post-2012 (partially explained by FBI reclassification in 2013).

Porn addiction: real or not?

Debate over whether pornography constitutes an addiction. Destiny cites DSM-5 and Nicole Prause research showing moral incongruence as primary driver. Trent cites Love et al. 2015 neuroscientific meta-analysis linking porn to addiction-like brain changes. Jazmen cites anecdotal evidence from European vs. religious subscribers. Destiny points out that gambling vs. porn: DSM-5 accepts gambling addiction but has repeatedly rejected porn addiction.

Children and pornography exposure

Debate on harm to children from early porn exposure (average first exposure at age 11). Destiny and Jazmen argue data is mixed and inconclusive. Lila and Trent argue exposure leads to normalization of violence, degraded sexual expectations. Debate about whether age verification (age-gating) should be required. Jazmen says she agrees porn should be kept from children but pragmatically is difficult. Discussed New York Times reports on young boys enacting aggressive sexual behaviors learned from porn.

Sexual revolution, abortion, and contraception

Lila Rose argues sexual revolution opened doors to abortion on demand; cites Guttmacher Institute: 50% of abortion patients used contraception in month of conception. Destiny counters that abortion rates have fallen 41% since late 1990s (CDC data). Lila argues contraception failure rates plus sexual culture leads to roughly 1 million abortions/year. Debate over whether post-1990s trends are caused by pornography or other factors.

Teleology of sex: Catholic view vs. consent-based view

Trent presents argument that sex's teleological purpose (procreation + bonding between man and woman) is what gives it moral constraints. Without that framework, even incest, bestiality become hard to rule out on consent alone. Destiny argues consent is sufficient moral framework. Lila Rose argues sex is designed for lifelong love and potential life-giving, and violating that design causes downstream social harm. Debate devolves into bestiality and animal consent tangent.

Prostitution legalization: Nordic model vs. full decriminalization

Debate centers on Cho et al. 2013 study (150 countries) showing prostitution legalization increases human trafficking via scale effect dominating substitution effect. Trent advocates Nordic model (criminalize buyers, not sellers). Jazmen cites 2021 QJE study showing decriminalization improves STD outcomes and reduces violence against sex workers. Discussion of Germany (prostitution legal, 69 murders) vs. Sweden (Nordic model, 0 client-related murders since 1999). PTSD rates in prostitutes on par with combat veterans cited.

Exploitation, consent, and commodification of the body

Wide-ranging debate on consent frameworks. Trent raises nurse/healthcare worker analogy (OSHA standards, dual relationships). Destiny argues healthcare and sex work dual relationship issues are distinct. Discussion of blood plasma donation exploitation parallel. Trent cites Farley et al. 2003 (89% of prostitutes want to quit but cannot due to financial constraints). Jazmen argues she earns 7 figures and chose sex work freely. Debate on whether consent can be truly free when financial need is a factor.

Closing statements

Trent: sex work cheapens sex's bonding/procreative power; look at actual content of popular porn. Lila: sex is beautiful but commodification and hedonism cause real social harm; data supports this. Jazmen: harms exist but evidence does not justify restriction; sex workers deserve autonomy and safety. Destiny: consent-based framework is preferable to teleological/religious framework; slippery-slope concerns about restricting alcohol, gambling, video games if we restrict sex work.

Transcript

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Trent Hornand then that's okay because we have consent and it's this kind of activity now imagine that you would it be healthy to have a friend who says hey um I'm glad you and I are getting into martial

Trent Hornarts together um but I really feel like we can only be friends if you only do martial arts with me or we can only be friends if you only do tennis with me or I want you to be my only friend you're

Trent Hornthe only friend that I have with those examples would you say that those are disordered friendships probably yeah all right so my next question would be is it disordered for someone to say I want you

Trent Hornto be the only person I have sex with you're the only person who has sex with me do you think that's disordered not necessarily no what's the difference between activities that are pleasurable

Trent Hornand consensual martial arts chess tennis spending time together and sex then what's what is the difference between the two that one is disordered it's a friendship you should not get in and the other we would say not even that it's

Destinynot disordered but it's the way things ought to be your life what's what's the difference uh I the difference is going to be the preference as of the people that are taking these things some people might feel like uh they like to do

Destinymartial arts with a lot of people and for sexual activity I think people tend to prefer to be more exclusive with that um there's probably other things we could think of that is that natural should we think like that's the way they

Trent Hornought to treat sex whether or not it's whether or not it's natural or not is a separate question well it seems obvious that if someone says I want you to be my only friend and you can't have other friends we'd say that's a friendship you

Trent Hornprobably shouldn't get into right generally yeah then why like if we're going to use like don't we say the same thing then about I want you to be the only person I have sex with back we say it's a good so if we're talking sex work if a subscriber told to me you're the

Jazmen Jafaronly person I want you to I'm the only person I want you to have I would say no that's not the context of this because you're selling a business and you can't have one customer yes but my point is that just because that's one way to see sex is like an intimate monogamous thing there are a lot of people who don't view

Jazmen Jafarit that way who don't want to view it that way and I'm wondering back to my original question where are these outcomes that are so detrimental to society that's happening because some people uh people that want to be polymerous not getting in the way of you don't think that 20% of couples

Lila Roseexpressing unhappiness because of porn porn use in the in the relationship CPL where is that yeah this is a study from um and then also the statistic about uh

Lila Rosethe amount of uh people that are um pornography use being uh listed as one of the reasons for divorce you don't think that that's meaningful it could many things that are listed as divorce but I have a bunch of studies here that

Jazmen Jafarshow that since like I just told you porn that porn actually can have a cathartic effect on violence that STD rates come down there's a huge study that shows that AIDS or um yeah HIV could go down by 30 to 40% if we were to

Jazmen Jafarjust decriminalize prostitution so there is evidence going both ways when it comes to porn and sex work and I don't see anything that's super conclusive that this is just a terrible harm more than stud Institute by the way about 20%

Lila Roseof couples report a degree of conflict in their relationship due to pornography one in four men report hiding porn from their partner one in four men hiding it from their partner probably because they're looking at that prostate St porn okay but but I I think the the larger

Lila Rosekind of the meta Point here and you were speaking to this earlier Destiny but then we kind of got you know the conversation unraveled a bit but you were saying about how we have all this technology and so now we can do now we can treat sex recreationally did I understand you correctly I'm saying that

Lila Roseit's allowed us to change the way we view sex yes okay so my point is that even with the technology the natural consequences and outcomes still find the way even if we can live in

Lila Roseunreality for a short time with the tech technology you know I'm just on only fans for a moment it's not going to hurt my relationship I'm going to use a condom here so I'm not going to get pregnant whatever it is right I'm not going to get this girl pregnant whatever

Lila Roseit is the consequences catch up and when I brought up the G mecker Institute statistic the reason it mattered is because half of the women who are getting abortions according to the

Lila Roseresearch arm of planned parented the biggest abortion chain report using contraception in the month that they got pregnant so they were using it they thought they were doing the safe safe sex thing and then they get pregnant and they show up for the abortion so my

Destinypoint here is I just you keep bringing up the stat like yeah it wouldn't surprise me if for instance like 70% of people that die in car acents are wearing seat bels that doesn't mean wearing a seat belt at bad it means like if you're going to be in a car AC you're probably in a car you're probably wear a seat belt if you're getting pregnant

Lila Roseyou're having sex you're probably getting into the car is promiscuous sex maybe we should consider not getting into the car so much I'm saying that number you're giving when that's saying like people were getting into the car is going and sleeping with the prostitute

Destinyif getting into the car is he sex culture then maybe study you brought study I'm notar with this you said that what was that number that you quoted you said 50% of people said they were using birth control or whatever and they got

Destinyokay socer insute the types of okay in that study for birth control did they include natural Family Planning and pull out method no this is a contraception birth control pills and condoms or barrier meth pull out method and natural

Destinyfamily plan are both considered forms of contraception I mean that's like a very small fraction of a percent of people who even use that anyways first of all that's not true especially among Christians natural Family Planning true is considered one of the only ethical

Lila Roseways to do contraception which you know no this is this is this is largely birth control pills and barrier method condoms or diaphragms or otherwise okay all right I i' be curious if that's true but like even so it is true because we know

Lila Rosethere's a failure rate there's a failure rate there is a failure rate but like perfect use failure rate is like 1% um real you're having regular prisc sex or regular sex even with one partner that you don't want to have a kid with

Destinyeventually there's going to be you know for many there will be a for you know hold on for many there won't be it's a 1% failure rate that's the opposite of almost a million abortions a year

Destinyenough 330 million people I don't know if that's enough on can say many people that's not what 1% means 1% is not many one other point because I know that you think abortion

Lila Rosetypically is acceptable up to a certain point there's over 10,000 abortions that happen after the marker where you think it's a human life okay so is 10,000 abortions 10,000 murders you would consider it Mur

Lila Roseof children that are viable in this country a year is that worth the promiscuity of adults 10,000 Mur you're linking that to to sex work and promiscuity I don't you just said oh

Jazmen Jafarit's affecting 20 alcohol is also like I think 10% of divorces list like alcohol is the issue is alcohol bad now I think alcoholism is bad alcoholism is bad but alcohol it doesn't have to be alcoholism do you think that's bad in moderation

Jazmen Jafarporn I agree if you have a problematic porn use is bad but is porn bad and is sex bad that's the question sex is great I think porn is bad what is the Jas what's the difference between porn use and problematic porn use problematic

Jazmen Jafarporn use is where people personally identify that's the medical term with it being a problem in their lives which is a very small the biggest the only representative sample we have puts it at like 4% is it possible for someone to

Trent Hornuse porn in a bad way if they don't personally feel anything bad about it what do you mean what's can you give me an example of how using porn in a bad way a husband uses a husband looks at porn talks to only fans girls

Jazmen Jafarmasturbates to them uh and his wife hates it but he doesn't think it's a big deal and it's really hurting their marriage and just like if he drinks alcohol too much and she doesn't think and she doesn't like it but he still does it that's a bad it's bad when

Trent Hornpeople violate the boundaries of let me try another one then let's say what if the wife says you talking to any woman on the face of the Earth hurts me and makes me upset would you say that that wife has an inappropriate boundary no

Trent Hornbecause there's some there's a lot of people that are like that and they that that her husband cannot talk to any woman even like a female secretary she's so hyper jealous my family is from the Middle East this is literally how they set up societ you think that's good I

Jazmen Jafardon't think that's good but if that if there are people who that's the way that they're happy I don't think that's good I think the way you guys live your life isn't great you guys don't think the way I live my life is great the point is that when we allow people to do what's conducive to their own happiness that's

Trent Hornbut what I'm asking you is that can a spouse have e boundary expectations that are reasonable and unreasonable I think if we're going to use like a reasonable person standard that depends on like the community sh in certain communities

Trent Hornthat's and in your community porn is that talking the community this even this community out here who is you know um non-disclosed location uh you know uh would be listening in on this that an

Trent Hornunreasonable boundary would be a girlfriend says my boyfriend can't talk to any other women that that would be unreasonable and a reasonable one would be my boyfriend should not be going around looking at other naked women

Jazmen Jafarthat's fine but so like you you guys also think like masturbation in general not you not your what do you mean what do you mean by you guys well like i' I've watched your video you said masturbation just in general is is wrong I don't think that our community

Jazmen Jafarstandard would agree with you I would agree that maybe I'm farther this way but you're definitely nowhere near where the reasonable I there there are definitely boundaries that are like pathological that are not okay and there

Trent Hornare probably some that are okay we draw our sexual ethic is good or bad we're debating whether your sexual ethic is bad okay yeah and we're I'm where the only thing you have is that

Jazmen Jafar20% of marriages have an issue with this 20 marriages have issues with substances and Etc are those things bad you said alcoholism is bad problematic porn use is also bad you should go get help from

Lila Rosethat yes and divorce rates have not gone up since the proliferation of porn but but the point is that porn is a is a prominent factor in divorce so is substance abuse so is alcohol would say substance abuse is bad so why are you

Destinysaying porn is good I think no no wait wait cuz substance abuse wait wait wait you're saying substance abuse is bad therefore why isn't porn bad no that's not what I said that is literally what you just said you said why would sub

Destinycontext of why people get divorced Destiny is what we were speaking to no no but people don't get divorced because of substances they get divorced because of behaviors substance abuse but that you're saying they get divorced because of porn why not porn abuse yeah why my

Jazmen Jafarquestion problematic porn if it's getting in the way of your life bad but there are most of the people that consume porn which is the majority of people it's not getting in the way of the relation not getting in the way because we we can delineate we can say

Trent Hornoh when you drink this much alcohol it makes you sleepy or giggly or fall down drunk or wrecks your liver like we can talk about the different effects at the different levels and what they do and

Trent Hornwhether it makes sense for a wife to tolerate or or a spouse to tolerate or not tolerate but when it comes to porn I think it's very fair for a spouse to say

Trent Hornyeah I'm not going to tolerate my spouse um giving orgasm or giving that sexual desire to someone else my biggest problem with the view you guys are

Trent Horndefending is that you lose any principled basis to say things like infidelity or even other you can't even Define what extreme sexual behavior is

Destinyas long as it's consensual wait wait wait wait you can absolutely have all of these discussions just because you say I think that my partner can watch porn you're saying you can't have any more sexual boundaries if you grant that because I could exploit

Destinyyour life and find a million different things do you think your partner should be allowed to eat well yeah of course should they be allowed to have dinner with a member of the opposite sex alone at a restaurant maybe not that some people wouldn't be necessarily comfortable with that just because just

Trent Hornbecause you allow some things doesn't mean that you've eliminated every single thing this goes back to my previous argument and saying about what boundaries are reasonable or unreasonable that if sex if sex is just

Trent Hornanother activity like other activities then it becomes unreasonable to demand exclusivity for it lit nobody here is saying that sex is just another activity

Destinyyou sure there are some activities that can serve a variety of different purposes okay for sex it could be recreational or it could be an incredibly emotional romantic Bond building thing much the same that we

Destinycould imagine as I just brought up dinner could be whatever I've gone on to dinner with a ton of people that it's whatever but dinner can also be an incredibly romantic personal event some of these things even some people could set boundaries around and every he said that's fair if you say oh I went have to eat with like three or four friends last

Destinynight you know Samantha was there oh that's cool that hits a lot differently than if you say oh I went have to eat last night with Samantha we went to you know Ruth's Chris we had like a $200 dinner wine under that doesn't feel fair that feels like cheating a lot of people would say that's that's not okay you've actually like cheated on your partner

Destinybecause you took another woman out on a date so I don't I don't agree with this idea that just because you're saying sex can be used like romantically that's the only way you can treat it and as soon as you've used it even a little bit on this recreational side you've lost all

Trent Hornability to have romantic because you would apply that same standard to literally any other activity in the world because sex is not like any other activity in the world I didn't say wait wait what do you mean it's not like any other activity it isn't sex is something

Trent Hornthat's unique because it has the ability to create new people it is designed to bring people together in a close intimate bond that no other natural activity is created towards and because

Trent Hornit has those propensities we have moral Norms around it and that in order to have prostitution and pornography you have to say well those moral Norms are just what p people to the sex can be utilized for

Destinyother things for instance when you masturbate you're not procreating and masturbation is about as natural as it gets plenty of people learn to touch themselves at incredibly early ages it's like a natural part of human development

Trent Hornbut it is not natural the state that we're in now where people can masturbate to all to a nearly an unending Supply I would like to finish please

Destinyokay it's not relevant to what I just said but absolutely is relevant because we're talking about whether this is bad for society no we're not we were talking about if it was natural whether what's natural you're saying that sex is made for procreation and blah blah first of

Destinyall ignore the fact that designed a designed process we could fight over that but that's going to get into religion but I'm telling you that there are forms of natural sexual exploration like masturbation as you're growing up that obviously don't produce children and aren't designed for that I I didn't

Trent HornI didn't say sex for procreation and that's not my answer to the question what sex is for but I'm getting back that even if someone didn't have a complete answer to what sex is for they wouldn't say oh well it's like dinner it's like other activities where there's just a multiplicity of meanings there's

Trent Hornno correct meaning to it people have a lot of different meanings to it I think a lot of people would end up rejecting that wa rejected how when when when casual sex is so prevalent how who who would you mean a lot of people would

Trent Hornreject that a lot of people would reject that when you talk about what is it what is it for like especially when you're in the context of a relationship well yeah in a context of relationship it changes of course and and the biggest the tell the most telling thing here in my

Jazmen Jafaropinion is all the social data shows the vast majority of it shows that these problems arise when there's no when there's a moral issue with it right because alcohol like you said there is a

Jazmen Jafarlink they have linked at the amount you drink with the probability of it leading to problems with porn there is no link there's no study that can link the amount you watch with having problems

Trent Hornwith it in your social life and even not true true there are studies done by Nicole prous who is a pro porn advocate in 2013 that shows there's lesser

Trent Hornreactivity in the brain to people who frequently use porn to be able to have attachment to spouses or significant others at all in 2014 and other further studies in 2015 were the first

Trent Hornto use magnetic ronal imagery to show the actual changes that take place in the brain when people frequently use pornography it changes the brain and raises the dopamine ceiling so that in

Trent Hornorder to receive uh sexual arousal you need more and more uh extreme and even violent forms of pornography in order to reach that that's why you have things that now people are seeking out not just

Trent Hornsex they're seeking out incest pornography they're seeking out beastiality they're seeking out group sex rape play and that is bad when Society Falls more into that the whole point of that Nicole prow study which I have here is it's the exact opposite of

Jazmen Jafarwhat you'd expect to see going on in the brain of someone with an addiction this is her words the findings are suggest self-proclaimed porn addicts don't quite have the same relationship with porn as someone that substance like with substance addiction so yeah she has done a lot of work I'm a big fan of her that

Jazmen Jafarshows that it's not a real addiction and a lot of it she was also in this big study that found this is the quote moral in congruence around pornography use is consistently the best predictor of the belief that one is experiencing pornography related problems or

Jazmen Jafardisregulation it seems to be unlike alcohol unlike substances that it has a lot to do with how you feel about it and I can just give you anecdotal experience from talking to so many people on my only fans my European fans those

Jazmen Jafarcultures where it's not like sex isn't seen as such such a like terrible thing the way they interact with me is like hey how are you can I get this video and they're like okay cool the people who have this moral in congruence they're behavior is super rtic they come they go then they delete everything then they

Trent Horncome back sometimes they send you a Bible verse like these people are really struggling so but then there are people who consistently asks for more and more kinds of uh frankly bizarre so Nicole

Jazmen Jafarkuss uh uh talked about this study I think it was in Croatia where that there's actually evidence that they do it in the beginning and then they eventually the study done show that over time they go back to the vanilla stuff and she was attributing it more to

Jazmen Jafarpeople being like oh this is kind of weird like let me click on this and then over time being like okay I'm over it it's like kind of like a shock Factor thing that's what she found and that's what she talked about and I would say there was a 2016 uh study by right at

Trent Hornall that did a metaanalysis the other thing I'm concerned about is it raises the dopamine ceiling and this was a study that was done across uh 22 countries showing an increase in the

Trent Hornlevel of aggression in men who view pornography versus those who don't and I think that makes sense when you look at the most popular forms of pornography

Trent Horninvolving things like domination subjugation of women uh using verbal you know verbal abuse gagging asphixiation and and a lot of other

Destinythings like I said earlier about the in increase in things like incest an incest role play real quick just on two questions so first of all when you say an MRI shows changes in the brain responding to dopamine levels of people that continue to use porn this is true

Destinyof probably literally every single stimulating activity right yeah right like if okay so that's not unique to porn that would be the same in playing cars that'd be the same in eating potato chips be same in playing video games be the same in watching movies or Tik toks or whatever so I don't know what that's supposed to prove secondly just so I can

Trent Hornunderstand this to it's in the relation of it's in the relation of what you find to be sexually arousing that people who continue to use porn and use porn more more frequently need more and more varied or disturbing or intense

Trent Hornpornography in the same way that an alcoholic needs more alcohol to feel a buzz than when they first started drinking okay that's those two things are completely dissimilar wait wait wait wait hold on I'm sorry um real quick okay I hear this brought up so many

Destinytimes and I'm curious if there's an actual number on this I've heard this said over and over and over and over and over again people who consume porn need to dramatically increase the extremeness of the porn they're consuming what is the percentage of those people that that happens with because I've heard that said over and over again is that

Trent Hornactually true or is that just like something we say we take well I think the proliferation of I mean even what we were talking about no that's not an answer I'm asking is an answer even if you don't like it the fact that when you look at pornhub's most Search terms over

Destinythe past 10 years and see that it's extreme things which by the way your view can't tell me what's extreme or not 2022 the searches that defin 202 were reality gender group sex Outdoors

Trent Hornpositions feet and fum these are our top seven like types of searches do you think it's extreme people get from that's not the complete search list those are highlights that were put up there you have to scroll down more to

Destinyget the highlight you said the top I'm asking what are the top ones the highlights that they put in that graphic I know the page you're looking at oh so you're saying that that if I go to look for the most common searches it's not

Destinythose yeah oh okay te and stepmom or step sibling okay I'm sorry the most Search terms were hent Japanese oh no mil which is the opposite of teen

Trent Hornlesbian teen is no yeah teen mysteriously disappeared after 2020 when at the same time PornHub was indicted not indicted when PornHub was being investigated for having child sexual

Trent Hornassault materials and credit card companies were refusing to work with them if you go back and look at it from 2012 to 2019 teen is one of the most common categories search for it mysteriously disappears though after they have trouble with these credit wa wait does it mysteriously disappeared or

Trent Hornthey just eliminate the category to try to stand on the safe side of like all the well now now they've realized I don't know what they've done but they have seemed to have kept certain terms from being searched for but other people go and search for them and then of

Trent Horncourse there's other sites Beyond porn there sure there are okay but I think we would consider this a good thing this like a form of like regulation working right if we think that like people searching for teen and even the ones you put there would you say hentai is a more extreme version of pornography depends on what you're

Trent Hornlooking for would you say it's more extreme um do you think it's more extreme to to be aroused by watching someone be penetrated by tentacles well not all hentti porn is tentacle

Destinyporn there's lots of different types of an but that's but that's a common element of it I don't know if that's wait I want back wait wait wait I want to back this question nobody answer this I want to know do do we know because I've heard this said over and over and over again that people that start

Lila Rosesearching for pornography are going to gravitate towards more extreme versions I'm curious what are the percentage of people that start on the pornography road that end up in more jine was using anecdotal anecdotal examples of her okay got you I just you can go on from that I just want to be clear then that this is

Trent Hornrepeated over and over again we have no number on that there's no data that's something that's said over and over again literally just told you what people tend to search for on the internet and it's not like loving couple has sex well and child sexual assault

Destinymaterial is proliferating we're talking around it I just I had a very clear question I was curious how many people start with vanilla porn and move on I'm looking for a number between probably 100% because they start when they're

Trent Hornwhen they're 11 years old and they probably see boobs naked people sex and then it quickly moves on from there based on these common Search terms you see what's on 100% of people move up on to hard no I'm sure not 100% I'm sure

Lila Rosesome 11-year-old finds hentai and then they're really in for bad because of the work I do in speak with young women and the New York Times and others have done um investigative reports on this what young girls are reporting

Lila Roseabout sexual encounters that they have with other young boys and the extreme and often um very uh uh disrespectful things that the young boys expect the young girls to do because of the

Lila Rosepornography that they're exposed to on the internet so I think it's living in unreality for you both to sit there and let me finish please let me finish I think it's living in unreality for you both to sit there and say porn is harmless it's great yeah there's some

Lila Rosebad stuff but has nothing to do with porn and everything's fine when the reality is of your average young girl and your average young guy today boy today who's looking at porn in the internet is being exposed to rape porn is being exposed to sexual assault porn

Trent Hornis being exposed to child sexual assault material and a lot of young girls are reporting and yes we don't have the exact it's hard to know this it's not just the 2021 Bella deline one of the most uh no wait she just said a whole

Lila Rosething do we get the respond well the last thing I was just going to say is these young she's doing kidnap roleplay it's pretty pretty common I mean that thank you that's a good point I mean even this is a very prominent child a very prominent porn Creator who's doing

Lila Rosewhat Trent just said but these young girls are reporting that they are being asked to do very degrading demeaning things that are scary for them it's even on this podcast I was at this on this show just

Lila Roserep saying how the guy wants to do these aggressive violent things with her and she's uncomfortable okay this is pervasive and you can pretend it's not happening but it is that's fine okay but like that we can argue that there might

Destinybe negative uh sexual behaviors that might be being picked up from porn which is fine if you've got numbers on that I'd be interested however you don't think that's happening Destiny I do think it's happening but okay we don't I'm glad we can agree that that a lot of the problem is a lot of women push for

Destinyit too so it's hard to it doesn't matter who pushes for it it has led to that is the point but we don't know if it's led to it though right it could have been there could be these desires that also weren't being expressed or being expressed in other ways before for instance things like I I can tell you what I'm saying you don't have to say

Destinyyou're saying I can just tell you I'm saying right things like for instance uh sexual behavior at the workplace is inappropriate towards women that's something that's been a Pastime in workplaces for a long time men treating women in sexually uh aggressive ways at

Destinyworkplaces that had nothing to do with pornography things like spousal rape or marital rape these are things that have existed for a long time that weren't encouraged by or made for pornography if you want to play history anecdotes you can look at all of the conquests of cities where they're sacked all the

Lila Rosewomen is it your argument that the 11-year-old who's exposed to pornography and finds themselves suddenly looking at sexually very explicit sexual assault material uh pornography that when they

Lila Rosethen may try to act out aspects of it with a girlfriend their first time in real life that that's a result not of the porn but they think this is happening I don't think an 11-year-old I

Destinydon't think an 11-year-old's first porn video is like bake throat 69 and then he Tak his 12-year-old girlfriend how do you how do you know misrepresenting what I said I said that

Lila Rosethe 11-year-old who's exposed to porn and gets hooked and starts to look for more and runs into because it's everywhere sexual assault material type porn torture type porn maybe child

Lila Rosesexual assault material porn that that kid then if they act out some element of that in in a real life sexual relationship with a young girl your your argument is that well they would have done that anyways even without the porn

Destinyno my argument is if you think that's happening because I'm 34 and I've grown up hearing all the same arguments from Jack Thompson about video games that you think a boy is going to play a game and take a chainsaw to a guy's face and S

Destinyopen and he's not going to go and Bully his friends or kill somebody at school you don't think these School I've heard all these if you think it's happening that's fine you given me a plausible scenario where it could then show it in the data then then show it in the data how many 11year olds are choking their

Lila Rose12-year-old girlfriends the New York Times report on this okay and the New York Times report is going to say that like this percentage of 11-year-old students are choking their girl point we I don't think we need to come here and

Destinysay we know the exact we've you need to present an argument if you're AR you're saying 11y old on let me your AR saying 11y old bo are finding extreme porn and they're that girlfriend that's

Lila Roseif that's happening that's pretty bad you have any evidence even if they're not acting it out with their girlfriend is it pretty bad is it pretty bad if somebody view something I I don't know the answer that we that's something think it's okay for an 11-year-old boy to suddenly start looking at rap

Destinyprobably not do you think it's okay for an 11y boy to hear his parents having sex do you think it's okay for an 11y boy to see somebody naked at a beach those are no no answer that answer that answer those questions do you think it's okay for 11 use them as comparisons you think that an 11-year-old boy I didn't say they were the same that's why it's a

Destinycomparison was a comparison it wouldn't be two different things that comparing it would just be me saying the same thing twice they're not a meaningful comparison because I didn't let's find out if it's a meaningful comparison that's what I'm asking you can you tell me is it appropriate for an 11-year-old boy to hear his parents having sex no I

Destinythink that's inappropriate but it is dramatically more scarring to walk in and see a rape happen scarring oh okay then give me the study dat consum 11year

Jazmen Jafaroverwhelmingly women that are seeking out this kind of stuff so if there's a woman who's 13 14 I was one of these and I was like o choking kind of hot and then when I got a boyfriend I was like I want to try out choking and we both agreed that this is what we want to do

Trent Hornhow is that harmful are you saying that it's not bad for a 13-year-old girl to to seek out uh choking porn no I don't think it's bad I think if that's what you're so you think maybe maybe it's a

Trent Horngood thing to show I also want to say where is this harm you think repeat this it's not bad for a 13-year-old girl to seek out porn where women are choked as part of I don't think it's wrong for

Jazmen Jafargirls when they're exploring their sexuality and they do that through porn if they like being dominated like I'm one of these girls to see that represented an adult to show a 13-year-old girl that yes but that's different it's different because there's that imbalance thing you're not supposed

Destinyto show children this but if a child like if I when I was about a 16-year-old boyfriend shows a t her as if he's like hey are you into this I don't think that's bad either wait wait 16y boyfriend with 16y girlfriend or 16y boyfriend with a 13-year-old girlfriend with a 13-year-old girlfriend oh well

Jazmen Jafarthat's that's different it's 3 years 3 years is typically if it's within the before it becom statutory raped when they're not even supposed to be having sex if it's 16 and 13 in most days they're not even supposed to be having sex they're 16 and 14 I know that the

Jazmen JafarRomeo Julia L 15 and 16 or 13 and 14 whatever you want to say if it's two people of the same age and they're just exploring what each other likes and there's consent and both people are comfortable with it and it turns them on it's okay for them to exploit now let's go back then so it sounds like what

Jazmen Jafaryou're saying is so fine 13 how about a 10-year-old girl is looking up this stuff I mean that's really young but I think that's still part of like normal exploration I wish I agree I wish this wasn't available to children does does

Jazmen JafarCH are children harmed when they see pornography well the research on that is kind of mixed I actually have a couple so your answer is I don't know the answer is that there's uh research going in both ways and a lot it's not just me

Trent Hornthat so if the research so let me ask this so if the research goes both ways and we don't know should it be a crime should it be a crime then to show children pornography yeah I I think children yes but we're not talking about but why because saying we don't you're

Trent Hornsaying we don't even know also crime to give children alcohol is alcohol bad and the other thing I wanted to point out is you're talking about the link here's why it's a crime to give children alcohol that children cannot consent to

Trent Hornactivities that are capable of gravely damaging them or even damaging them at all like kids have to have their parents sign them up for sports teams they can't just sign up on their own so it seems like then that we'd have to agree that

Jazmen Jafaruh if if porn doesn't damage kids then they don't need parents they don't need consent and they don't need a law to protect them right if it doesn't damage them I think that the it's really mixed on if it damages or doesn't so to air on the safe side with children I'm okay

Trent Hornwith I wish we could keep it away from children but we can't can I okay let me so by that by that logic then you know people there's you know differing opinions about whether childhood

Trent Hornfootball damages children too much or not so by that logic we should treat childhood football teams as being as wrong and necessary to Outlaw as showing porn to Children what okay wait here's a

Destinyquestion which doesn't make any sense which what damages the child yes that's my question no that's my question to you now well you're the ones promoting sex work in pornography sure so I'm asking I'm asking I'm asking where you draw the line because you're saying that it's clearly not you're saying that porn is

Destinyclearly over the line despite the fact that you presented absolutely zero data to support that point so you're giving that a child being exposed to pornography when they're 11 or 12 or 13 or whatever are having all these negative outcomes I don't think you provided a single stat for any of that

Trent Hornor a single point for any of that other than it feels wrong I me which is fine it can feel wrong I did provide that I mentioned the 2016 right at all study with the 22 countries The Meta sorry 22 stud was of children that sounded of all people it's

Trent Horntalking about children young people and Rise of aggression and use of pornography that's 22 studies across seven countries there are other studies that we can put forward but even beyond the studies it's

Trent Hornjust an OB to hear your response it just seems obvious to me that if a 12-year-old boy has access to Pornhub and can freely

Jazmen Jafarsearch it it won't take him long to find what we consider extreme pornography and if he finds extreme pornography what are those outcomes so you talked about sexual aggression there's a meta analysis from the 1970s to 2020 and it shows that some show that there is some

Jazmen Jafarshow that there's not but the studies that were done over a longer period the link was weakened it's also been found that studies that employed higher level of best practices tended to provide less evidence of a potential well there's met biggest predictors for sexual aggression

Jazmen Jafarnumber one alcohol so again is cu alcohol seems to be actually showing us more conclusive harm in all of these respects is alcohol harmful is it bad there there's a meta I mean in excess it is absolutely there's a meta analysis

Trent Hornthat Trent and I have both ref that say that porn is connected to aggression um including and that's why and that's why for example with alcohol what we do is we have very stringent barriers to make sure to try to keep miners away from

Trent Hornalcohol even though they do that so for example would you agree we to have very stringent barriers to keep children away from pornography for example all pornographic websites should require age

Jazmen Jafarverification I think that the problem is is that practically speaking the ones that are going to implement that are going to be the bigger ones but it's the internet you can't control the internet so what's going to happen is those sketchy sites in Russia are going to be why don't we just why don't we just have

Trent Horna rule that all pornographic websites have to have a triple X domain and then we can put them in one area that requires age verification how about that if if there was a way that we could actually make it so that you had to

Jazmen Jafarverify your age to be on these and that it wouldn't lead to just moving people over to sketchier places where they can still access because I don't know if you know the internet's pretty easy to find like crazy you don't and even if you go especially the sketch what's worse on the sketchier stuff what do you

Jazmen Jafarmean what's worse you're saying you're worried that if you use age verification to keep a kid off PornHub he'll go to a sketchier the sketchier stuff so for instance places like PornHub right now they have gotten way stricter with the

Jazmen Jafartype of content you can put out you can't put out like if you rape on U PornHub nothing comes up but if you go to like some of these sketchier ones they do come up so your your issue is more can can you do um Step sibling

Jazmen Jafarincest yeah and I don't think that's necessarily like okay if someone views step sibling incest where what are they doing what are they doing with that that's so harmful to is Step sibling incest bad step sibling watching step

Jazmen Jafarsibling in no I just saying is the act of Step sibling incest bad I wouldn't say it's 100% bad and I want to know if you're saying it's bad why where where are the outcomes cuz I'm looking at shouldn't have sex with each other I'm looking at outcomes here so I'm saying

Trent Hornif people are watching this more aggressive come if you have I don't need a study to know that I shouldn't have sex with my sister whether she's by law or blood or brother is watching it is

Jazmen Jafarwatching it increasing step sibling incest that's my question is watching this stuff increasing it happening are people having more incest now in real life or are they just watching it it desensitizes one to it yes so are but is

Jazmen Jafarthat actually leading because the same thing happens with violent porn but there's a lot of studies that show it can kind of have a cathartic effect and that sexual crimes actually decrease when people watch it so my question is there's a meta analysis with 22 studies

Jazmen Jafarthat show that a increased use in porn increases okay this is a meta analis of even more that shows that some of them do some of them don't but the ones that had best practices show a weakened link

Jazmen Jafarso I get what best practices best practices means like having the uh like peer review better control group more people studies not the point yeah I'm talking about studies so the studies that have best practices employed that's

Jazmen Jafarwhat this meta analysis from 1970 2020 found show that that that weak that link is actually weaken and you look at actual crimes happening what I am surprised I am surprised by is that you can't make a moral decision without

Trent Hornsaying well let's see what these psychological studies say even though we're in the midst of a replication crisis well let me finish we're in the midst of a replication crisis where many sociological studies in some instances 70 or 80% can't be replicated so we

Trent Horndon't know if the stud's conditions are accurate we can't just go with the very BAS Bas element of hey getting an erection at watching fake rape that's probably a bad scenario that's probably bad if people do that well here's the

Jazmen Jafarthing you're talking about incest right if we're seeing that people people are watching step sibling step sister stuff it's not making them more likely to do we have no evidence it's not leading to Greater aggression in societ it's not leading to anything if the harm is just

Lila Roseminimized to them seeing it and being aroused by it is that I just want to get something clear I just can I get something clear you're okay with people being aroused and ejaculating over rape

Lila Roseporn you're okay with that as long as it's something that if it's not real and if it's consensual actors yes you're okay with someone getting aroused and ejaculating over um uh incest porn yeah

Lila Roseas long as and would you be okay with someone ejaculating and being aroused over child sexual assault material provided it wasn't a real child it was a simulation if it and same thing if it was a simulation I would look at what the consequences are if it's leading

Jazmen Jafarespecially when some of them show it's leading to less actual harm to children or if it's leading to less sexual aggression in person if it's leading to less ESS which a lot of studies show then I think yes I think if you're just getting aroused by it there's no harm

Jazmen Jafarbeing done what about a child being raped but it's a simulation and it's okay for someone to ejaculate over that in your mind I would say that if that if okay here's the thing some people have that proclivity and if watching it when

Jazmen Jafarthere's no real child if it's Ai and that prevents somebody from actually acting the as a there EV that prevents it there's evidence that watching that here's differ a cathartic effectual here's difference okay so it sounds like

Trent Hornyou're saying well how can we really how can we really know that people desire something virtually that they don't also we have no idea if they really want it in real life if it primes them for that that's not what I'm saying saying what you're saying is that they might be confined to the virtual and so they

Jazmen Jafardon't have the desire to do it in real life all the evidence that we have shows that it either is confined to the virtual or it's actually preventing at least when it comes to sexual aggression yes I have three what is one of the main is it true that one of the main reasons

Jazmen Jafarthere's different reasons women quit only fans right is one of the main reasons that they find they make more money doing escorting I have no idea I never heard of any I know anyone I know has never quit to do escorting no do any

Jazmen Jafardo any people who do only fans make supplementary income from escorting some do it's against the rules of only fans if they found out you get kicked off but or other camsites I'm sure they do but what so do

Trent Hornyou think then in those cases that it's plausible someone begins on a camsite they're excited by this virt and then they want to take it to the next level and that's how that happens what do you mean what happens they're

Trent Hornnow sexually assaulting the no they're having a physical active intercourse with this person they first experienced on cams yeah what does that have to do though with having higher R of child what I'm saying then is that if we see

Trent Hornin these circumstances where someone begins they're aroused by virtual contact with us with someone and then they instincts well I want to take it to the next level that's going to really

Trent Hornmake me aroused and go and meet that girl in person why wouldn't that apply also to Virtual acts absolutely even people like Jordan Peterson have talked about how there seems to be a cathartic effect from

Jazmen Jafarwatching it that actually leads to less of this happening in real life and I have some studies that show that we you you have no evidence saying that people watching this leads to more of it in fact there's evidence that's lean leaning in the other direction you wanted to you wanted to ask something

Destinyyeah these arguments are completely and totally disconnected the idea that if somebody gets into some type of work they might continue on down that type of work doesn't at all feed into like well isn't it obvious then if somebody watches por like that's like saying like if you start drinking at all you're going to become an alcoholic and it's like why would you say that well isn't

Lila Roseit likely somebody that works as a barback might become a bartender someday so why wouldn't like that that argument is no there's no connection whatsoever there are many cases of people that are um ultimately caught for the use of

Lila Rosechild sexual assault material and one of the things that gets them extra penalties is that they were actively seeking to act out the fantasy that they were playing and the attacks that they were doing against these children in

Lila Rosetheir mind in on real life children and they had difficulty accessing real life children so I think it's it's a very it's a very much living in unreality argument that I think living unreality

Lila Roseyou have no evidence of actually increasing to say that people can live this whole life in their minds that they're acting out in their bodies through ejaculation and that's not going to affect anything that they do in the

Destinyreal world but yet that seems to be the case with movies and video games where a a k can sit in front of a computer and play 12 hours a violent video games a day and bl beh ho he doesn't go on The Rao and kill somebody I think training yourself and actively sexually arousing

Destinyyourself and ejaculating over these activities I don't think there's a mental arousal agree mental arousal that happens when you're out there killing people in video G connection think it's an there the connection has connection

Jazmen Jafarhas sexual abuse has gone down since the proliferation true not child seual my phone from a study from the University of New Hampshire that the CLI of 30% or

Lila Rosemore and sub is this reported child sexual abuse Jasmine yes so where's your evidence then that it's just unreported now but it's going up because people are watching we have insane rates of child sexual abuse in this country and it's

Jazmen Jafargone up since the proliferation of had well it's in conjunction with the then it should go up if if porn being introduced to society has let has made this worse then where is that evidence

Trent Hornit's not just porn it's also we haven't talked about this very much it's also prostitution you want data I'll give you data look up show at all CH a 2013 study

Trent Horncovering 150 different countries showing an increase in human trafficking when prostitution is legalized wait who no none of us even disagree with this yeah that's that's but that's but that's sex

Trent Hornwork why is sex work bad prostitution is sex work sex work's bad because it leads to other bad things like human trafficking but that doesn't make the sex work itself bad yes it does because you can you can use other me let's say

Trent Hornlet's say it was the case that most of the AL we drank in the United States came from the cartel would that make alcohol bad no it would make it bad if using alcohol also fueled some other

Destinyextremely dangerous violent form said let's say that hypothetically opium was grown in in the fields of Afghanistan and that was a huge export for them does that make it bad to consume all products all medical products related to

Trent Hornpainkillers no I'm not talking about remote cooperation with evil what I am saying is that if you have different policies when it comes to something like prostitution for example if you have a policy where you Legalize It And so it's

Trent Hornlegal to both buy and sell sexual services like you say you have in German or or other countries where that's allowed you have an increase in human trafficking but if you have other countries the increase in human trafficking isn't necessary for the sex

Trent Hornwork it's just a byproduct I explain yes it is and I will explain why because when you legalize prostitution two there and let's say human trafficking goes up or down there's going to be two different things that happen here

Trent Hornthere's going to be the scale effect and the substitution effect so the substitution effect would be oh you would think if prostitution is is legalized you know human trafficking will go down because you have legal prostitutes now they substitute for the

Trent Hornillegal prostitutes and the hope would be it would go down because of this substition what I'm sorry wait what is the substitution effect the sub there's the question of the relationship between human trafficking wa I'm just curious what is the substitution effect the

Trent Hornsubstitution effect is that I human trafficking would go down illegal prostitution goes down because it's substituted with legal prostitutes you have sex with a legal prostitute instead

Trent Hornof an illegal one that's the substitution effect that that would drive the number down the other problem though is the scale effect that when you make it legal there is now a massive increase in demand for this and there's

Trent Hornnot enough prostitutes in order to satisfy the demand so trafficking goes up in order to meet that demand so the Cho at all study 2013 15 countries including longitudinal the show Germany

Trent Hornbefore and after so it's not correlative shows that the scale effect always dominates the substitution effect so when I look at that I say oh legalizing prostitution this way that seems really

Trent Hornbad maybe we should do something else like the Nordic model where you don't criminalize women for selling Sex You criminalize men for buying it and that really back to my original question then wait wait wait wait wait wait wait before before we jump into a whole

Destinydifferent thing okay so back to my other question if for alcohol then if it was the case that we just every time we buy more alcohol it seems like you know in either cartels or gangs or whatever are the on producing it would you then say that we ought to outlaw alcohol because like every time we increase our

Trent Hornpurchasing of it it always comes from it seems to come from unethical sources we should outlaw alcohol if there are more social ills than social benefits talking about social ills benefits very that is always the case that you make you said that there a sub can I finish can I

Trent Hornfinish hold on you just talked for like 30 minutes you want to answer a simple question I did answer and you're interrupting me I said that if there's when you have social benef when you choose to Outlaw something you have social benefits and social ills that you have to weigh involved alcohol provid

Destinysocial benefits and there are also social ills I'm only talking about the substitution and the scale effect those the only two I don't know why we're bringing this whole other thing now you alcohol Destiny what's the question that you wanted he said that there is a substitution effect where when you legalize something you bring in legal

Destinyprostitutes instead of a consumption of illegal prostitutes however the scale effect due the increase in the overall consumption of this particular good or service leads to more people being brought in in sex traffic so the the the fact that you're trying to substitute it legal for illegal people doesn't matter because even if the percentage of

Destinyillegal consumption decreases the overall per capita increases which causes an increase in the illegal amount of of prostitutes being used so therefore increases sex trafficking so my question was well let's say if we take something like alcohol or any other good or service you can buy if it was

Destinythe case that the mass scale consumption of this necessarily means that it's being consumed from countries that are engaged in slave shops or drug trade or cartels or whatever would you it's not it's not a correct analogy you'd have to

Trent Hornshow me an example where you have a legal and an illegal version of the same product in the market where it's being purchased and it drives the illegal version of the product up you're using

Destinyno you're using it but it's too disanalogous to even make the point that you're trying to hold it's not disal I'm saying let's say there's a drug this drug is something that a bunch of people around the United States smoke or drink or whatever but let's say that it was okay well let's legalize it but then

Trent Hornwhen we Legalize It there's such a demand for it that now like all the cartels in Mexico are making it would you say we shouldn't legalize it because of that reason yeah if it if it leads to a greater net increase in substance abuse to harm Society then we might want

Destinyto Outlaw that talking about substance abuse I'm just talking about an increase in the people selling it being bad people because we have such a higher demand for it now the supply is coming from like it's not selling that's the whole point here it's not about selling

Trent Horna product and the bad people it's about the fact that when prostitution is legalized sex slavery goes up and the fact that we're even having this discussion about comparing people in sex slavery to products made in different

Trent Horncountries very much shows the entire problem with the situation if you want we compar to sweat shops then if you want to do that sweats versus like normal with your analogy Destiny is that sex is good and sex is beautiful

Lila Rosebetween in the right context and so to compare it to alcohol but restrict it just to prostitution sex happening is also a problematic because I mean alcohol you can use in the right context

Lila Roseright sex in the right context and our position is is an amazing and a great thing what our point is is that in the context of sexual exploitation and commodification commodification that's when it becomes problematic and um and

Lila Roseand harmful and wrong and Jasmine you were saying well for kids there's no problem with kids looking at pornography necessarily um Etc problem I said that it's not this I think having alcohol violent video games all of this can show

Jazmen Jafarjust because something has harmed doesn't mean that now we need to get rid of it right the Second Amendment guns probably do a lot more harm than porn does anyone here want to B gun the First Amendment right people say mean things on the internet now because we have the First Amendment but that outweighs that

Lila Roseso if you want to say something should be banned because of social ills I need a lot of evidence we're talking hold on hold on jasine we're talking about is sex work good is the question and you ask well what about you know kids looking at objectifying

Lila Rosepornography on the Internet or you know sexual assault porn that's not necessarily bad there are over a hundred studies that have revealed links between young people's exposure to objectifying content and their objectification of women or self-objectification those

Lila Roseexposed to objectifying portrayals are more tolerant of or in agreement with sexual harassment adversarial sexual beliefs rape myths child sex abuse myths and interpersonal violence than

Lila Roseparticipants without this exposure and experience greater body dissatisfaction appearance anxiety and disordered eating belief so to say again to to argue that kids being exposed to porn or for that

Jazmen Jafarmatter adults using porn is harmless there's no negative effect to them or the way they view other people is simply I didn't say there's no negative effect to them I'm saying the negative effects are not even that conclusive adolesence

Jazmen Jafarin pornography what are the negative effects what the negative of of research since 2005 more than 65 empirical Studies have appeared with a peak of 11 articles in 2011 the reviews have come to opposite conclusions notably about the question of whether pornography is

Jazmen Jafarrelated to adolescent sexual attitudes and behavior so some find there is some find there isn't the problem here is that if we just do evidencebased I have a lot of studies that probably show the opposite of so we can just ask a basic question which I have been continually

Trent Hornasking and did not get a straight answer from that you seem you're not committed to the idea that it's just bad it's bad when children 10 11 years old C porn if it is bad like you say there's some

Trent Hornstudies say what is bad what does it what does it do to them you came close earlier you guys are saying well they might not understand how sex ought to be or determine what's real or not real in

Jazmen Jafarit would you agree that pornography has distortions of sexuality in it that children like what I mean I especially if you look at so in fact like things like only fans has made that problem better for just general Society a lot of

Jazmen Jafarstudies on only fans shows that it actually helps people understand sex people report feeling more educated they report improvements in their sex lives so sex education is good right like if I have a child my point isn't going to be

Jazmen Jafarlike porn bed it's going to be like hey look this is not how sex always is right if there's and now there's so many different kinds of porn out there that show different kinds of sex amate is there some kind of consensual sex that

Trent Hornpeople should never do like can you give me an example well I'm sorry is there some kind of sexual behavior I will give you an example I'm curious to see how your guys's ethics would apply to this

Trent Horncuz I think that this view of sex that is not that is grounded in pleasure even if it's grounded in consent you're going to have problems I give you an example so a month ago Peter Singer one of the

Trent Hornmost famous philosophers in the world uh shared an article on Twitter from the Journal of controversial ideas and he said this is really interesting uh and it was a defense of beastiality okay and it was an interesting defense of it

Trent Hornbecause I think it goes through many of the common arguments that are made against beastiality and shows why a lot of don't work uh you know for example uh well I guess I mean I could ask you I'm

Trent Hornsure I know what your reason would be but it seems like okay I'll put it this way all right I think what you might say is that obviously beastiality is wrong because in order for sex to be moral there has to be consent and animals

Trent Horncan't consent yeah okay that would be my view I don't think I don't think that that's a a good argument because we eat animals number one yeah that's go we eat animals without their consent we do normally we just say to to do a

Jazmen Jafarscientific experiment on somebody you need their consent right you're a lawyer yeah you need their consent but there's certain things at least you you can't do even with their consent now right but to do any scientific experiment you need

Trent Hornthe patient's consent yes but we do scientific experiments on animals all the time without consent and I'll give you um one you know one more example so

Trent Hornlet's say like uh police can9 units uh I gave the martial arts example earlier that if I do martial arts with somebody without consent that's assault they need

Trent Hornto be okay with me punching them in the head so police officers train K9 units and they assault them they fight them they teach them how to subdue a a suspect they basically get involved in

Trent Hornfighting with a dog and the dog can't consent to that but we don't consider that animal abuse so if it's okay for cops to rough up a dog to teach them how to subdue a a suspect why wouldn't it be

Jazmen Jafarokay for someone on only fans to let their clients see their dog lick PE peanut butter out of their vagina so this is different we probably have different views on this I don't think that that's okay I don't think the way

Jazmen Jafarwe treat animals is okay I I would disagree with I don't think we should be testing on animals the way that we are we treat them as completely nonhuman I don't think that's necessarily intellectually consistent are you vegan I'm not vegan but I'm an for

Trent Hornthat okay yeah I should be but of all but no but of all the ways we could treat animals M of eating them doing experiments on them U making them do hard agricultural work do you think that

Trent Hornthe do you think that the least violent way to treat them would be things like letting them eat peanut butter off somebody's penis some of the experiments that they do on animals especially when it comes to like mental health where they like purposely put monkeys and

Jazmen Jafarscare them and do all this I think yeah you if you just a monkey it' probably be better than if you did all that to a monkey so that you can so that you can gauge how how did we

Trent Hornget to Monkey if sex is just for pleasure animals like pleasure too and we're all animals we're a different species this View that under's prostitution pornography can't coherently explain why it's wrong and I

Brian Atlasthink that that's a problem well I just I would just like to make a quick statement I just like toit the whatever podcast does not endorse beastiality I do I I need to do a couple chats here and then we'll continue on with the

Brian Atlasconversation we have Dr Clockwork a common reason of divorce is leaving the cap off of the toothpaste is brushing your teeth now bad correlation does not equal causation

Brian Atlaspeople have lots of reasons for divorce usually more then blank okay Dr Clockwork thank you appreciate it we have Devon frame here coming up in just

Brian Atlasa sec just waiting for it to pop up hey Devon frame thank you human beings tend to twist and molest everything they dip their toes in you religious folks should know that well how do you propose we better build healthy functional adults

Brian Atlasharar milker I have no idea what that means but uh um how do you propose we build we better build healthy functional adults I don't know if that's virtue

Destinyreally worth okay habitual predisposition to choose the good okay I think I think it I think you have to have a realistic assessment and you have to acknowledge the real biological forces that exist in people rather than

Destinytrying to Design Systems around virtues that are of religion or other sorts of origination um we've seen this fail over and over and over again and it has failed and it will never come back the

Destinyidea that sex can just be confined to one marital thing is just something that even for most of human history hasn't gone well I think when people try to have relationships where sex is open and

Destinycan be shared with lots of people that's where we see failure sure but we see 50% of marriages fail that don't even have those issues so it seems like I think that the I think that the better thing to do is to say there are different ways you can engage with sex here are the pros here are the cons if you engage

Destinywith it in this way things like this can happen or things like this can happen and then if you engage with it this way here are the good things or bad things I think the problem is everybody is so ideologically driven to attack one side or support another they end up making absurd statements like you know

Destinyeverybody should be happy with this style of monogamous sexual relationship and marriage and anything else is wrong or everybody should be you know in a poly 500 people and that's totally okay we say everybody deserves love that doesn't need to be satisfied

Lila Roseuh by other people as sexual objects yeah that's fine and that that sort of view has led to you know histories of marital rape and women not even like having orgasm Rel that sex has a particular design to it and we can

Lila Rosepretend that it doesn't but it does and that design tends towards intimacy and connectivity between to people and it can also create life and I think when we pretend that that's not the truth about sex and we say that sex is just whatever

Lila RoseI want on my own terms provided there's consent then we open the door to all of these things to your point Jasmine you're saying well there's all these studies that show pornography doesn't cause so many issues I have all these studies that show that they actually

Lila Roselead to object objectification in real life and all these other problems um when you look though at the data of people who are promiscuous or having multiple sex partners that's when you see in in what are people doing in real

Lila Roselife people very harmed and people experiencing more addiction people experiencing more mental health issues yeah but wait so then do you think that we should heavily discourage again to to

Destinyworldview of saying that sex is whatever and let people do what they want to do so wait wait so all form all forms of sex and that aren't leading to like procreation and relationship building between husband and wife then in your eyes are basically like things that

Destinyshould be heavily SE uh socially discouraged as an example this is a New Zealand St wait no no wait I'm ask I'm asking for a moral perspective like for example this is not a moral perspective this is no no you just G when you say sex is designed for something that's a moral

Destinyperspective it's a philosophical position yes I'm talking about the data proves I'm not talking about I'm asking you morally you think that the only type of sex that should be encouraged in society or should be allowed in society should be sex that is for the design of

Destinylike having children basically uh I think it can include having children but no it's designed for the for marital love what about I just so for things like gay sex or lesbian sex in your ideal Society are these things

Lila Roseessentially not allowed or discour I think that sex is designed for Lifelong Love to two between two people and it is designed to be lifegiving now that doesn't mean every sexual act is life-giving or that everybody can give

Destinylife through sex but it's designed for that and I think that's the reason one of the reasons yeah but can we engage outside of that so for instance are gay people having sex always committing a social sin in your eyes is that always a bad thing I think that yes I mean I

Destinydon't think that do you think that all forms and one more thing do you think all forms of sodomy are also do you think that all forms of sodomy are also like social sins so any oral sex any anal sex all of that is also again I think if you want to talk about

Trent Hornthe the Catholic teaching on this and I'm asking for your teaching iath teaching I'm a Catholic or I was our view is not what's we're not debating whether Catholic teaching on sexuality is true or not or good the position that you're giving to counter the sex work

Trent Horndebate are ones that would necessarily include these even if you don't hold this position you can say this well but you haven't given those arguments well here's what I well no here's what I would say the question of whether homosexual conduct or sodomy sodomy

Trent Hornwhether it's between people of the same sex or people of the opposite sex the question of is that disordered you cannot answer that question unless you have answer a previous question which is

Trent Hornwhen is sex ordered okay so I put forward the view that I think the only way to explain why things like incest beastiality uh you know Infidel you know gross pris infidelity other things

Trent Hornordered towards a very particular expression of love between a man and a woman but even if you didn't hold to that view uh your view can't really say when sex is ordered when it's properly

Destinyordered to a certain end all you can say is well you just got to make sure it's consensual but after thatal I think yeah I think that we can propose like very simple things around like as long as it's consensual as long as it doesn't lead to like obvious

Lila Roseexploitations of like certain people so for you probably should be able to have sex and your something righty the question today is is sex work bad for society and we're talking about you're talking about and and presenting a view

Lila Roseof sex where provided there's consent between adults everything's fine and dandy and you're saying well the data Bears out from pornography that it's fine and dandy I'm saying well we have all this data that shows that it's not and you're saying well we then and the

Brian Atlasconsensus is on my side and and and there's a lot of other data that we haven't even talked about yet that before wait wait before we get into that let me just read the rest of the chats we have four chats so let me just get through them and then we'll uh continue

Brian Atlason Modest Tama hey thank you man Brian love the real debate format thank you for setting it up Destiny props for coming back multiple times although I mainly disagree with you it is nice to hear actual discussion from the other

Brian Atlasside rather than Libs screeching lib screeching be a good band name that would be a great band name Destiny did you play any instruments by chance or went to school for music so yeah okay piano and saxophone yeah okay there you

Brian Atlasgo we have fear Maddox hey thank you hello Brian I find this interesting I have friends who goes out much Etc and I'm that only friend who doesn't because I have some level of self-respect Virgin my friends don't believe me why do

Lila Rosepeople think there aren't men who have self-respect not entirely related to the conversation because it's it's like look down on in our culture to be a virgin or to pursue

Brian AtlasPur pursue abstinence and I think good for you I think that takes a real a lot of virtue good for you P madx we have Kyle wittington hey thank you question for Destiny and Trent at what point is

Destinyconsent wait hold on I'm sorry can I respond to the last one no if hold on I'm sorry real quick you want to go back to the last one yeah if you want to be a virgin or if you want to be promiscuous you should do some exploration of your

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