Destiny, Jazmen Jafar VS Lila Rose, Trent Horn DEBATE | Whatever Debates #3

Date: 2023-12-08

Duration: 3h 08m

Guests

Brian Atlas

DDestiny (Streamer)>

JJasmine Jafar >

Identified Speakers

SPEAKER_01Brian Atlas(host)

SPEAKER_02Destiny(guest)

SPEAKER_03Trent Horn(guest)

SPEAKER_04Jazmen Jafar(guest)

SPEAKER_05Lila Rose(guest)

Key Moments

OtherLila Rose opening position: sex has design toward intimacy and life; hedonistic view causes social ills including family breakdown.

“I think that sex is an amazing and beautiful thing and it has a design to it”

OtherJazmen Jafar opening position: sexual autonomy and freedom is positive; no compelling evidence sex work causes harm worse than other allowed activities.

“I think uh sex is a drive everybody has and there's always going to be a demand for consensual sexual services”

OtherTrent Horn opening position: sex work illegitimizes the term 'sex work'; pornography degrades sex's meaning leading to violent and degrading content.

“sex is a very important thing I think everybody nearly everybody agrees that sex is something that's really important”

QuoteJazmen cites meta-analysis: moral incongruence is the single best predictor of experiencing porn-related problems, not amount consumed.

“the number one determinant or the number one predictor of having bad experiences with porn or quote unquote porn addiction which the medical consensus is is not a thing is moral incongruence”

Key MomentTrent Horn presents Cho et al. 2013 study (150 countries): prostitution legalization increases human trafficking via scale effect dominating substitution effect.

“look up show at all CH a 2013 study covering 150 different countries showing an increase in human trafficking when prostitution is legalized”

ControversyBrian interjects to clarify the Whatever podcast does not endorse bestiality during philosophical tangent about consent and animals.

“I just I would just like to make a quick statement I just like to note the whatever podcast does not endorse beastiality”

Key MomentJazmen argues decriminalization improves outcomes: cites 2021 QJE study showing decriminalization reduces STDs and reduces violence against sex workers from police and clients.

“all the evidence shows that when you do start treating it like a job STD rates go down condom use goes up”

QuoteTrent: we should not exploit people to make society better; cannot do evil so good may come.

“we shouldn't exploit people just to make Society a better place we shouldn't treat people like Commodities we shouldn't do evil so good may come”

Key MomentTrent cites Farley et al. 2003: 89% of prostitutes want to quit but cannot due to financial constraints; argues this constitutes mass exploitation.

“a 2003 study by Farley at all in seven countries showed that 89% of prostitutes want to quit their job but can't because of financial reasons”

Key MomentLila cites mental health statistics for prostitutes: PTSD rates on par with combat veterans; suicide attempt rate 41% vs. 29% average; HIV 6x higher; emergency room visits significantly elevated.

“the statistic for that specifically according to this study is that there's an increase in risk for suicide attempt of 41% versus the average of 29%”

ControversyLila cites Joshua Bloom (former top-ranked porn actor): 30 of his close friends in the pornography industry died by suicide during his career.

“he shared about how during his time in the industry which was six or seven years 30 of his close friends took their lives”

Key MomentTrent cites Germany vs. Sweden prostitution murder statistics: 69 prostitutes murdered in Germany (legalized) vs. 0 client-related murders in Sweden (Nordic model) since 1999.

“how many prostitutes have been murdered since 2002 where prostitution is legal in Germany do you know I don't have that data in front of me but I know it's 69 how many have been murdered in Sweden in that time... none”

OtherTrent closing statement: look at what sex work actually is in practice; sex's power to bond and create life is undermined when treated as work.

“go online go and look at the most popular search for things on porn PornHub xHamster camsites what prostitutes say that men usually request from them it's violent degrading”

OtherLila closing statement: sex is beautiful but commodification and hedonism cause real harm; fighting for people to experience sex in the context of love and marriage.

“sex work pornography prostitution is bad for society it's bad for everybody involved”

OtherJazmen closing statement: harms exist but evidence does not justify restriction; sex workers deserve to be accepted and not criminalized.

“this isn't to say there are no harms associated with sex work this is just to say that just because there are some harms Associated”

OtherDestiny closing statement: debate grounds out in teleology of sex (religious vs. consent-based view); consent-based framework is preferable to avoid over-restriction.

“we didn't really get to it but I think like a lot of this conversation ends up grounding out in what we view sex as being for”

Topics Discussed

Opening positions: Is sex work bad for society?

Each debater gives opening statement. Destiny: sex work is a protected consensual transaction. Jazmen: sexual autonomy and freedom is positive. Lila Rose: sex has inherent design/meaning; hedonistic view causes social harm. Trent Horn: sex work degrades the meaning of sex, encouraging a harmful hedonistic worldview.

Pornography and social harms — data debate

Extended debate on whether porn causes measurable social harm. Destiny and Jazmen cite DSM-5 rejection of porn addiction, moral incongruence as main predictor of harm, studies showing women report higher satisfaction. Trent and Lila cite studies linking porn to increased sexual aggression across 22 countries, child sexual assault material proliferation, PornHub most-searched terms (teen/stepmom), and rising rape statistics post-2012 (partially explained by FBI reclassification in 2013).

Porn addiction: real or not?

Debate over whether pornography constitutes an addiction. Destiny cites DSM-5 and Nicole Prause research showing moral incongruence as primary driver. Trent cites Love et al. 2015 neuroscientific meta-analysis linking porn to addiction-like brain changes. Jazmen cites anecdotal evidence from European vs. religious subscribers. Destiny points out that gambling vs. porn: DSM-5 accepts gambling addiction but has repeatedly rejected porn addiction.

Children and pornography exposure

Debate on harm to children from early porn exposure (average first exposure at age 11). Destiny and Jazmen argue data is mixed and inconclusive. Lila and Trent argue exposure leads to normalization of violence, degraded sexual expectations. Debate about whether age verification (age-gating) should be required. Jazmen says she agrees porn should be kept from children but pragmatically is difficult. Discussed New York Times reports on young boys enacting aggressive sexual behaviors learned from porn.

Sexual revolution, abortion, and contraception

Lila Rose argues sexual revolution opened doors to abortion on demand; cites Guttmacher Institute: 50% of abortion patients used contraception in month of conception. Destiny counters that abortion rates have fallen 41% since late 1990s (CDC data). Lila argues contraception failure rates plus sexual culture leads to roughly 1 million abortions/year. Debate over whether post-1990s trends are caused by pornography or other factors.

Teleology of sex: Catholic view vs. consent-based view

Trent presents argument that sex's teleological purpose (procreation + bonding between man and woman) is what gives it moral constraints. Without that framework, even incest, bestiality become hard to rule out on consent alone. Destiny argues consent is sufficient moral framework. Lila Rose argues sex is designed for lifelong love and potential life-giving, and violating that design causes downstream social harm. Debate devolves into bestiality and animal consent tangent.

Prostitution legalization: Nordic model vs. full decriminalization

Debate centers on Cho et al. 2013 study (150 countries) showing prostitution legalization increases human trafficking via scale effect dominating substitution effect. Trent advocates Nordic model (criminalize buyers, not sellers). Jazmen cites 2021 QJE study showing decriminalization improves STD outcomes and reduces violence against sex workers. Discussion of Germany (prostitution legal, 69 murders) vs. Sweden (Nordic model, 0 client-related murders since 1999). PTSD rates in prostitutes on par with combat veterans cited.

Exploitation, consent, and commodification of the body

Wide-ranging debate on consent frameworks. Trent raises nurse/healthcare worker analogy (OSHA standards, dual relationships). Destiny argues healthcare and sex work dual relationship issues are distinct. Discussion of blood plasma donation exploitation parallel. Trent cites Farley et al. 2003 (89% of prostitutes want to quit but cannot due to financial constraints). Jazmen argues she earns 7 figures and chose sex work freely. Debate on whether consent can be truly free when financial need is a factor.

Closing statements

Trent: sex work cheapens sex's bonding/procreative power; look at actual content of popular porn. Lila: sex is beautiful but commodification and hedonism cause real social harm; data supports this. Jazmen: harms exist but evidence does not justify restriction; sex workers deserve autonomy and safety. Destiny: consent-based framework is preferable to teleological/religious framework; slippery-slope concerns about restricting alcohol, gambling, video games if we restrict sex work.

Transcript

Page 1 of 4

Brian Atlaswelcome to a special debate edition of the whatever podcast I'm your host and moderator Brian Atlas a few quick announcements before the show begins this podcast is VI your supported heavy YouTube demonetization so please

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Brian Atlasoverlay donations in super chats $50 up will be read answered if you want to interact nearly instantly with us and weigh in on the debate consider sending

Brian Atlasa TTS text to speech message $300 and upt triggers TTS TTS is via streamlabs only please see the description for all triggers in full details if the TTS is

Brian Atlastoo disruptive we might we might shift them to uh an interval where we just uh go through all the TTS because if it's just too disruptive for the debate we

Brian Atlasdon't want it to be uh ruining the quality of the show and debate oh any super guys any super chats and TTS need to be on topic please uh Destiny is not

Brian Atlasgoing to address any private relationship details you can still dunk on Jasmine and Lila if you want not Trent though he is uh he's a bit

Brian Atlassensitive so it's true without further Ado I'm joined today by Destiny famous internet personality live streamer and political commentator joining him is

Brian AtlasJasmine Jafar the self described ho lawyer she does uh porn and only fans we have Lyla Rose she's the founder and

Brian Atlaspresident of the prolife organization live action and Trent horn Trent earned master degrees in the fields of theology philosophy and bioethics Trent is an Adjunct professor of apologetics at Holy

Brian AtlasApostles college and he is the author of nine books welcome everybody thank you Brian so uh we originally planned to have a proper debate moderator who was going to join us uh unfortunately there

Brian Atlaswas emergency and they couldn't make it so this is going to be a very less a fair when it comes to the moderation for the most part I'm just going to let you

Brian Atlasguys talk the topic of today's debate is sex work bad for society and I think a good jumping off point if you can each one by one summarize your position on

Brian Atlasthis topic starting with Destiny and then Jasmine and then Lyla and then Trent also we ought to Define for each other on the audience what is meant by the term sex work I mean sex work strikes me as a sort of nebulous vague

Brian Atlasterm meaning anything from taking non-nude lingerie photos all the way to selling $5 in the backlog of a 7-Eleven so uh go ahead start with you

DestinyDestiny yeah I think when we ask if uh sex work is good or bad for society I think it's important to recognize that there are forms of entertainment that we can consume that aren't necessarily like good but they don't necessarily do a bad um it's just a matter of whether or not

Destinyconsuming some things for entertainment purposes is like a thing we want to defend in society I think broadly speaking we do we would say that like video games for instance aren't necessarily good but I don't know if we would call them bad as long as they're enjoyed in an appropriate environment

Destinywith an appropriate level of consumption um so I think as long as we say that people want to buy sex work and people want to sell sex work and if it can be done so in a way that is safe to both parties and we can't see any like clear or obvious damage to society then I

Jazmen Jafarthink that that transaction ought to be protected and I think I would say like all other forms of entertainment we would say it's a good thing in society yeah so I think uh sex is a drive everybody has and there's always going to be a demand for consensual

Jazmen Jafarsexual services and there's always going to be people who are willing to supply it I think a society that grants its citizens they in civil liberties and freedoms like the the ability like sexual autonomy and the freedom to

Jazmen Jafarcontrol their own sex lives is better for society um and I don't think adding money into that should really change anything um I think anytime we're addressing whether something is good for society we have to think of how society

Jazmen Jafarwould look if we were to try to come in and remove that thing um and I think for one there isn't at least compelling evidence that sex work or porn or any of these things are harmful enough that we should try to do that especially if we

Jazmen Jafarcompare it to other things that we allow and also um the times that people have tried to come in and restrict those things um haven't shown to be very

Lila Rosesuccessful let's start with okay and apologies for any coughing I've had a cough for three weeks and it still isn't going away but anyways thanks for um your patience with me if I start to

Lila Rosecough I think that sex is an amazing and beautiful thing and it has a design to it uh it has a purpose to it and I think to ignore that design is to live in an

Lila Roseunreality that brings harm to oneself and other people and sex can do two beautiful things it can create intimacy and bonding and pleasure which is amazing between two people and it can also bring life into the world and I

Lila Rosethink there's a ton of social data that shows that when you divorce sex from its meaning and you treat it like it's meaninglessness like like it has no meaning a hedonistic view of sex leads to a lot of social ills and harm it's

Lila Rosedestructive to the people that behave as if it's meaningless and it's also destructive to people that um are also hit by the consequences of that behavior like a spouse in a marriage whose

Lila Rosepartner is using porn and they're deeply unhappy or the children of that marriage or um you know promoting sex work leading to uh sexual behaviors that can come bring life into the world and then

Lila Roseyou have this life that uh doesn't have committed parents who are going to raise them and and love them so I think we have to live in reality that sex has meaning it has consequences it's a beautiful and powerful thing and a

Lila Rosesociety that orders itself self to recognize that meaning um is going to be a healthier happier society and that's what I want for everyone yeah I would say that excuse me

Trent Hornsee I'm the one coughing now I took it from you sorry sex is a very important thing I think everybody nearly everybody agrees that sex is something that's really important but the problem that I

Trent Hornhave with sex work and that's a term actually that I don't consider legitimate people other people want to use it that's fine uh but I don't think that sex work exists any more than

Trent Hornfriend work exists sex is more than just a biological process or an activity between people when sex is reduced to hedonistic in its meaning that sex is an

Trent Hornactivity that one engages in for pleasure that does lead to bad things in society it leads to further degrading sexual acts like when we look at popular forms of pornography on the internet

Trent Hornbased in violence degradation uh scatological urine feces uh rape play that the human brain uh is

Trent Hornrewired by seeing this kind of stuff and this isn't just stuff on the margins either uh to look at what sex work does if it takes sex and drains it of its

Trent Hornmeaning to make it hedonistic we also lose the principles that we need to show that other depraved or disordered forms of sexuality are wrong or bad um I like Destiny what you said about video games

Trent Hornbut if I had to make a video game analogy I think most video games are actually good or neutral there's a few outliers like let's say they had Call of Duty a few back in 2009 there was the level no Russian where you could go around and

Trent Hornyou could shoot innocent people at an airport and that was very controversial and most video games are not like that but if video games were like porn some of the most popular games that people search for would have degrading acts of

Trent Hornviolence in it towards you know just innocent people not zombies I think people would see that that's very bad for the human person to degrade themselves in that way so so I am concerned that pornography and

Trent Hornprostitution uh degrade sex from having a very important meaning and expression of love between person persons and leads to an exploitation and problems in society if it's just a heathenistic

Trent Hornview that's our that's my view those are opening all right good debate guys but I do think it's important that we to Define that obviously like we said the term sex work is pretty broad here I

Trent Hornwould say I Define it into pornography and prostitution with a gray area obviously in between it's kind of hard to determine but mostly this just involves monetizing the arousal of other

Trent Hornpeople the sexual arousal of other people so there you have to have be making money and your intention is to sexually arouse other people or bring them to climax you know obviously if you're engaged in a sex act gotcha

Destinybefore we real quick before we dive into this um I think there's two really different ways this conversation we go we can do both I think we should decide first do we want to talk about sex work through the lens of the teleology of

Destinywhat we think sex ought to be for or do we want to talk about like the impacts on society first I think both should be yeah but I think because they're both very very different arguments so do we want to focus on the first one of like what sex ought to be or I think we can

Trent Horntalk about that because I think the big thing that's dividing us is that it is bad to misuse sex sex is very important thing and so if one misuses it this will tend to lead to all kinds of social

Lila Roseproblem natural consequences to the misuse or the abuse of sex and you can live in an unreality and sort of mitigate those natural consequences um but it only goes so far and there are going to be casualties and so like a

Jazmen Jafarquestion I have is you guys are saying like porn like has been so bad for society what are some of these outcomes you've seen since like the late ' 90s early 2000s when the internet you know became a thing you guys are saying porn

Jazmen Jafaris now making Society worse when in a lot of ways it seems like since the late two late 1990s and early 2000s we have less cases of sa less child abuse abortion rates are down like 41% I'm not

Jazmen Jafarsaying this is because of porn but it doesn't seem like porn has turned everyone into these violent that people are having less sex we have less teen pregnancies all of that stuff so what

Trent Hornwell I I dispute the claim that sexual assault can we say that or we just say cessi that's fine yeah okay that's I dispute the claim that sexual that porn leads directly to a reduction in sexual

Trent Hornassault we have to be careful to not do um after therefore because of um that porn becomes more prevalent what happens after that if you look at

Trent Hornstatistics of sexual assault they have been declining since the 1990s but since 2012 they have dramatically increased anyone who's watching this just Google

Trent Hornuh rape United States 1990 to 2022 or rape UK sorry grape uh UK uh from 2000 so from 2002 to 2022 and you see a

Trent Horndramatic rise like in the UK it's like from goes from 60,000 reported cases to 130,000 reported cases from 2012 to 2017 what's driving that wait can I ask real quick actually cuz I just looked these

Destinyup and I noticed that what you said is exactly right from 1992 they fall until 2012 and then they Spike they Spike what happened in

Trent Horn2013 wasn't 2013 the start of the me to movement me2 movement started in 201 17 with the list 2017 yeah okay got you I I I thought about that too that that might

Trent Hornbe now I think that when we talk about what causes things to happen in society it's rarely ever one thing because people are complex so like why also

Trent Hornthere's a difficulty in assessing how many rapes occur like it's not as hard to figure out how many murders occur because you just count the dead bodies or how many cars are stolen you count

Trent Hornthe cars that are taken but rap many rapes are not processed uted or they're not reported or but I think the number of allegations I do want to hear L your thoughts on that we see it going up I

Trent Hornthink that one element that would make sense to see that drive from the 2010s is that online pornography had a huge boost during this time period that we

Trent Hornhave PornHub was started in 2007 and it explodes going through 2012 2015 on and if you're wondering like the things that I'm concerned about you look at like PornHub from 2012 to like 2020 what are

Trent Hornthe most popular terms being searched most popular terms are Teen Mom stepmom this is not just like your vanilla pornography people are looking for

Trent Hornthough I find it suspicious that PornHub isn't reporting the teen search anymore uh so I think that that could be a part in there of that further degradation of sexuality during that time period I think that's a a very significant point

Lila Rosethat you just raised about pornub in the most popular Search terms the reality is child sexual assault material has proliferated in recent years with the rise of more internet uh spread of pornography and the ease of use of the

Lila Rosespread of pornography um pornography that is violent is increasing pornography pornography that involves um minors is increasing uh so there's that world of that you know people involved

Lila Roseand that usually those that have a you know you can use the word Addiction or compulsion around pornography there's a need for it to be increasingly Intense or violent or disordered in the sexual

Lila Roseacts that are being portrayed for them to find it fulfilling and so they have to continue on this like porn use um Journey that they're on and it leads to many other victims left in the wake of

Lila Roseit like children but another side of it too is the relational side for people that are trying to make families because I think civilization is built on families families is where what we're born into it's where we find our

Lila Rosegreatest meaning and worth um how we're formed as kids you know how we become good citizens one day and how we discover love for the first time and today you know around 20% of couples report that they experienced conflict

Lila Rosebecause of porn use of one of the partners like this is a significant thing afflicting a lot of relationships and um one of the top rated things in divorce um settlements are the porn use

Lila Roseof one of the partners so it's really damaging and I think the life experience of many people I'm sure are listening to this podcast right now they know people everyone knows someone who's been hurt by pornography so it's it's really um I

Jazmen Jafardon't think the pleasure of orgasm B es out the the cons so the data I'm sure you guys when you were looking at porn it's very mixed big medical consensus is that like this addiction and all that's not a thing when it comes to couples it

Jazmen Jafarseems like when the couples are on the same page that it doesn't lead to negative impacts it leads to that when there's one couple what do you mean by on the same page like when both like if uh like in a in a couple if they don't care if the other person watches porn

Trent Hornwhich is a lot of couples then it doesn't seem to have these kind of negative do you think that's the majority I think it's a lot of people do you think the majority majority of couples the the wife or the girlfriend doesn't mind that's really hard to tell the majority of people I know it's like

Jazmen Jafarthat maybe the majority of people he knows and the majority of people you know it's the opposite so I don't know I do think in general people don't see viewing pornography as like cheating do you think the majority of people think

Jazmen Jafarthat cheating is wrong though or even asking can I havea is wrong because it violates your boundaries but if that's not violating your boundaries which it's not for a lot of people then it doesn't seem to be having these negative that

Jazmen Jafarthat same do you think a majority wives would think that it's wrong for a husband to even ask if he should be allowed to cheat that's not cheating is about violating boundaries but if he asked is it okay if I watch porn when

Lila Rosewe're not together a lot of wives girlfriends would say yes but do you think a lot of the girl wives and girlfriends saying yes are saying yes CU they're really chill about it it's not a big deal we don't care or they're saying yes because Society is telling them you

Trent Hornshould say yes I was say about the boundaries is is it okay for a husband to ask hey can we renegotiate these boundaries yeah of course it's it's always so there's nothing wrong with a husband saying Hey cuz I think many

Trent Hornpeople that would would wives girlfriends lots of you would say no that's wrong that you would even ask that's that's just not okay to do you don't ask for something like that some people and I think for some people

Jazmen Jafarthat's not the case I don't know exactly percentages but the majority like exactly if I'm talking about like people I know this all I have anecdotal out EV inst andless there's some study done on this is a lot of people like don't care so I think there's a bit of a myth of

Lila Rosethis idea that well if my boundary is that it's okay to share you sexually with someone else even though we're in a supposedly committed relationship I think there's a mythology that as long

Lila Roseas there's consent between the two adults then it's okay for one or both to cheat as long as they know and they're okay you're using the word cheat when we're not talking about cheating I'm saying not have sexual Fidelity so have

Lila Rosesexual experiences relationships with other people whether that's through a screen or in life in in real life and you know there are studies that show um you know I have one right here that shows that married people who more frequently view porn even if it's

Lila Rosetogether even if it's like we're consenting this is a thing we're doing together are more likely to experience marital dissatisfaction down the line than couples that do not look at porn together so pornography has a pernicious effect even on consenting couples who

Trent Hornare saying we're doing this together it's so great that was that was a longitudinal study based on the social science survey with 2000 people it's not just like a correlative effect so even if even if in our minds we rationalize

Lila Roseand we live in the unreality of this is not affecting me I can have this open marriage or I can have this open relationship and my partner can look at porn or have another sexual relationship it still affects you in the real world

Lila Roseand it still affects your long-term um potential for happiness and Fidelity and not just Fidelity but happiness and um fulfillment in the relationship and so you can we can tell ourselves a theory

Jazmen Jafaror a myth of like hey it's going to be okay I'm cool with this but in reality it doesn't work that way in the long run but see like with a lot of this I'm not sure if you guys were really frust ated looking up this stuff too cuz so many studies conflict when it comes to porn

Jazmen Jafarand viewing and like women you view pornography report higher sexual satisfaction when they view it with a partner in fact the data on women a lot of why would that be Jasmine why would that be what do you mean why would that be well you just said women report

Jazmen Jafarhigher satisfaction if the porn is being viewed with a partner because at least they feel like I'm not being 100% cheated on in this moment no I don't I think you're just putting your framework on everybody else like I'm a woman too I don't care if my partner watches porn

Jazmen Jafarit's not just me trying to satisfy him it's not just me being like and I think a lot of people you have to separate being like being with another partner physically versus porn because I think the numbers there would be vastly different on who's okay if their partner

Jazmen Jafarwhen they're not around is watching porn versus who's okay with them sleeping with another person in real life I think you're going to get widely different opinions there from Girlfriends wives women on whether that's okay or not I would say when we look at the studies

Trent Hornlike for example in 2023 angle camp at all published a study in the Journal of sex and marital therapy and it did a quantitative analysis and the most common themes among couples where the

Trent Hornman views pornography is that the woman is glad that he told it that he talked about it openly uh but disapproves or is allowing the husband to look at pornography but does not want to hear

Lila Roseabout it so I think you would say that only a minority of women are positively in favor of this it's either negative or ambivalent well and I think the point is the the longitudinal study you mentioned and I mentioned is that even though that

Lila Rosesay they're in favor of it and are like watching it as a couple have worse outcomes down the line and I think that's part of the you know the point here is that even if you you like you're you're in a very unique situation you're

Lila Rosemaking your living doing this thing right and so in your mind of course it's going to be great I know you're going to defend it and say it's going to be great but the reality is even people that are defending it or saying it's fine in my

Destinymarriage down the line don't have the best outcome also to be fair too real quick cuz you talked career you guys are both ideologically you could never change your on this complely not true

Lila Rosearious all the studies I chose to be Catholic and I can choose to reject my faith sure but if like the research Catholic yeah but she could also change her career my point is that

Trent Horneven guys just one at a time we can change our mind on empirical questions about whether a majority of people feel satisfaction in something you can't use a a a social science survey to determine

Lila Rosewhether something is moral or immoral pushing back on the claim that like because it's her job she has to defend it speaking to outcomes though because what I'm trying to explain here is not my point here is that you can say and

Lila Roseone can say I'm comfortable with this I'm fine with this it's okay in my marriage or my relationship but my point is the social data shows that people who are comfortable with open relationships or pornography in their relationship have worse outcomes down the line well

Jazmen Jafarthe people have the worst sorry people have the worst outcomes when it comes to viewing pornography are people who have moral in congruence with it that's what all there's been huge meta analysis where they looked at the number one determinant or the number one predictor

Jazmen Jafarof having bad experiences with porn or quote unquote porn addiction which the medical consensus is is not a thing is moral in congruence and being religious is one of the biggest predictors of that so I agree porn is really bad for Catholics I just don't agree that it's

Lila Rosebad for everybody but my point here is that even people who find a way to morally rationalize theuse pornography or whatever it is down the line at large outcomes are worse for open marriages

Trent Hornthat kind of argument is like saying well gambling addiction isn't really real because the people who are most upset about gambling are only the people who are upset about losing money but people who don't care about losing money well they're not really that

Trent Hornpsychologically disturbed about gambling a lot but maybe they should be worried about that just like people should be worried about what porn is doing to them when it desensitizes their brain and it makes them think that I need more and more hits and more and more disturbing

Jazmen Jafarpornography to get off but the difference is that with um and that's why the dsm5 accepts gambling they've said multiple times they've rejected porn multiple times because you can't make a link to how much people VI they

Jazmen Jafarinclude hypersexuality under impulse control dsm5 that's in the world uh Health Organization they it's compulsion but not an addiction but is a compulsion a good thing jine well hypersexuality is a compulsion to masturbate or is it a

Lila Rosecompulsion to have sexual experiences it's I mean either way is a compulsion that you are at the mercy of and that often brings a lot of harm suffering no but I don't see I don't see the

Trent Horndifference there that if you can be in a situation where I I think gambling and porn they're very similar in their compulsivity that there are lots of people who can gamble I gamble and I

Trent Horndidn't lose the house lots of people can gamble but there's a subset when they gamble it turns their brain on too much and they need to get more and more highs from it so they gamble more and more and more and just even seeing the slot machine it does something to their brain

Trent Hornand they're in a situation where I don't want to be gambling I feel bad I don't want to be doing this but they just can't stop similar things with porn there's lots of people who watch porn and they don't turn into Maniacs or anything like that but there's a subset

Trent Hornwhere it lights up their brains and they know I don't want to be doing this I know it's just killing my marriage my wife feels awful knowing that I go and look at this stuff I feel bad but I can't stop don't those seem like similar

Jazmen Jafarlevels of compulsion it it may seem that way but the scientific consensus right the dsm5 statement is that other excessive behavioral patterns such as Internet gaming have also been described but the research on these and other

Jazmen Jafarbehavioral syndromes is less clear they get akin to exercise addiction shopping addiction and sex addiction the data is just not there that it affects you the way gambling does that's not me saying

Trent Hornit that's what the scient the the dsm5 is not an infallible Bible for everyone you have other studies for example love at all published a series a study on the neuroscientific foundation of

Trent Hornpornography addiction and that was a 2015 article and they a a meta analysis and they do link it to other addictions and other compulsions so I I think if

Trent Hornpeople just look at it you just take a a bird's eye view the person who feels bad gambling and can't stop the person who feels bad shopping and can't stop and the person who looks at porn or sees prostitutes and feels bad and can't stop

Jazmen Jafarit all seems pretty similar to me the difference is that with porn they've done multiple studies where it's like somebody who has positive attitudes toward it versus someone who has negative attitudes toward it they're watching the same amount and they're

Lila Rosehaving the same you they shortterm those are short-term studies though but it's but the point is you can tell yourself again you can live in unreality and tell yourself you know this sexual act of infidelity I know you don't call it

Lila Roseinfidelity cuz someone consented to it but me going and you know being polyamorous or me going in having multiple sexual experiences outside of my marriage or my relationship or me going in looking at pornography or using pornography you can tell yourself and

Trent Hornexperience short-term pleasure you absolutely I think a lot of wives would say would say that if if their husband is chatting with you on a live cam they would say that's cheating you think a lot of wives would feel that way you

Destinydon't know how many wives find me for their husbands on also wait hold on yeah when we when we talk about like cheating or murder when we talk about like murder murder is clearly unjustified killing right what are we talk about murder I'm

Destinyjust saying that the word murder means unjustified killing it's baked into there's such thing as a Justified murder when you use the word cheating then you're begging the question of course it's wrong but the question is whether or not these behaviors can be engaged in

Destinylike consensual ways so to say like oh well us back to what is sex for that might maybe that's fine yeah we can go back wait I'm just yeah um I'm just saying that you can't just keep calling it cheating over and over and over again because you're begging the question

Destinyyou're loading in with the word cheating is baked into this idea that a VI that a boundar is being violated or that non-consensual activity is happening and that might be your position or that might be your opinion but you can't have that perspective on two other people's boundaries if they say well in our

Destinyrelationship we're allowed to watch porn it it's inappropriate for you to call that a different point in response to Jasmine no no hold on I'm just being clear because Jasmine counter contradicted that point and then you tried to explain why well actually it is always infidelity when infidelity again

Destinyhas baked into it that tautologically trying to Define away the argument which is whether or not you can engage in these behav in a healthy way you're well obviously you can't because it's infidelity it's like well you're begging the question so if we're going to talk about the behaviors themselves we can but you can't call them all def the

Destinyterms as you please I think my point here with hold on what I'm defining as I please we all agree that that's what those words mean every single person watching infidelity and cheating means that you are doing something in contradiction to what your partner wants we all agree with that and we all agree

Destinythose are specific to sexual behavior everybody here agrees that Infidel and cheating is bad right yeah okay so we all agree with that so then so then why like well this is cheating we already agree that that's bad age to disagree on

Lila Rosethe point that yes I think it is infidelity or cheating to have sex outside of your two people are in a relationship and they say that hey it's okay if we watch porn you think they're still cheating on each other that is

Lila Rosebeing unfaithful to each other yes okay so so she has a different view on different definition I guess and we can agree to disagree on that at this point but my larger point that I was trying to make with you Jasmine or you know kind of get to the bottom of was yes you can

Lila Rosesay I'm feeling great about this I just had an orgasm it feels great I'm so happy with this you know pornog pornography I just consumed or this you know webcam person I just spoke with or whatever or had this you know relationship with or whatever it is um

Lila Rosebut in the long term these things don't serve the person or Society so we can we can actually agree with you that Hedonism feels good in the moment like I don't think Trent would even disagree at least for the person taking part in the Hedonism they might feel sick deep in

Lila Rosetheir conscience but I think in the moment physically they're going to feel good and that's the temptation of Hedonism right it's like it feels good of course I'm going to do it that's not true I mean women who view pornography report higher sexual satisfaction improv

Jazmen Jafarcommunication about sex with their part greater comfort with sexual well greater comfort with their own sexual orientation more frequent and higher quality sex easier Time study following there's multiple studies almost all the

Jazmen Jafardata on women in pornography in the old days it used to give them negative body image issues but since like people like me you know you're welcome or like more amateur porns started coming out actually women report see feeling better about their bodies there's a huge study about women feeling much better about

Lila Rosetheir vulvas now because there seeing different types of Volvos represented in so you think pornographic accounts online like there's a lot of Instagram accounts for example that are kind of some softcore pornography are making

Jazmen Jafarwomen at large and young girls at large feel good about their bodies pornography there's studies about pornography and women who view pornography because a lot of women watch like amateur porn more so than the mainstream Studio porn now and you're seeing all different kinds of

Jazmen Jafarbody types so that study that was done on women who now feel like oh I actually feel better about my vvo I feel better about my body when we compare that to women who viewed porn in the past when Studio porn was the only kind of porn out we're seeing a big difference yeah I

Jazmen Jafarmean at large sexual objectification of women online and major who viewsn body parts has been detrimental to young girls men view porn more but women also do view it sure I don't I don't disagree

Trent Hornwith that but I think we we just still need to go back to just the idea of our my argument I think be our argument that why pornography and prostitution is bad

Trent Hornfor society is that it encourages this false view about what sex is for that leads to all of these kinds of bad consequences also wait real quick can I run through something I'm taking notes

Destinyon okay okay so real quick on just like a from top to bottom so well why don't we go back and forth yeah sure yeah yeah we can yeah I just want a chance to go back and forth in some I heard a lot of points I haven't been able to jump in a lot of these um on the first one so in

Destiny2013 the FBI redefined rape to include all forms of penetration on somebody including like digital penetration so that largely explains like the huge gap in in numbers that I don't know if you were trying to imply that in 2013 there was a spike that happened due to pornography or due to some other reason

Trent HornI'm saying I'm saying it's certainly plausible it's a part of it I don't and you don't have enough evidence to say that that explains all of the increase no but there was a massive redefinition it also wouldn't explain the increase at the same time in England and you I don't

Destinyknow about the increase in England I don't know about the increase in England but I feel like if the numbers dramatically jumped in 2013 it's strange that you didn't search for the answer for why they jumped and just assumed because it fits The Narrative of it must be pornography whatever when a redefining of when a redefining of rape

Destinywould be a really big reason why the numbers might change for instance if you're familiar with Sweden's uh sexual assault statistics relating to immigration everything like the Swedish redefinition of a lot of these crimes is a reason why some of these numbers jump so I think anytime you see who Chum the data I think if you're inquisitive

Lila Roseyou'll usually ask like oh well I wonder why the DAT changed but there's also been meta analysis of porn consumption that shows that um many studies that show the link between porn use and keep

Lila Rosein mind a lot of porn today some studies say 88% of porn today involves violence or aggressive acts I don't lit when you say violence or aggressive acts what

Destinydoes that mean um it involves you know I mean the extreme simulation of no you said 88% I watch a lot of porn I don't know how much porn is violent or aggressive I'm just curious what counts

Lila Roseas an aggressive act 88% of porn as aggressive causing uh pain or or discomfort to the um person that's be being involved in the sexual act so that's one that was that was a 2010

Trent Hornstudy another one that was published by veric gray 2021 in the British Journal of criminology said that it put it at 1 in8 had acts of violence that would be

Trent Hornconsidered violence like under you know things like uh like uh B for example binding four Limbs and penetration gagging I the one and one women are the ones that are disproportionately

Destinyactually seeking that stuff out so is that also just to police people they also disproportionately I would say wait hold on just a sec Destiny you wanted to go and then LED so I could believe the one and8 number the 8 % there's no chance that

Destinythat's true that's not of all pornography it's of the 300 most common sure I'm just saying 88% of all pornography being violent unless you're defining like oral sexist violent there's no shot that the number is that high that's just it's of the most

Lila Rosepopular that's why on that's why on PornHub you're having teens and then you're having you know step you know step parents involved or stepmom involved I think uhre I think urinating

Destinyurinating and ejaculating on somebody's face I think that's violent and degrading I understand what you're saying but to the vast majority of normal human beings urinating on somebody's face is far different than ejaculating on somebody's face Maybe in the Catholic world that's those are

Trent Hornsimilar things but in the Ordinary World those are two completely totally separate acts I think most I think most people in the regular world who don't would consider that utterly degrading those I'm saying those two things are different if you want to classify both

Destinythem as degrading that's fine why why are they different because I don't know how much into detail but urinating on somebody's face the Kink of water sports is considered to be more extreme there's far fewer people that are into it and you're

Trent Horninvolving nonsexual fluids now in like a sexual sense that's just considered a more hardcore type of why if anything urine is probably a more sterile liquid and just because fewer people do it

Trent Horndoesn't mean it's more extreme I'm sure there's fewer people who do like Star Trek cosplay porn but that doesn't mean it's more extreme than others just because it's minority I think that's just you're probably consider more extreme it's not an intuition it's

Destinybecause generally the further you get away from things that are uh less directly involved with sex and then like the more uncomfortable those things tend to make people the more we would classify those things as being kind of like extreme I think it's like a I mean

DestinyI don't know if I'm sure we could have a huge debate on like is this is porn considered extreme or is it just like a hardcore Kang we can get into I'm just saying in general if you look the number of people into a kink like water sports or you mentioned like skatology

Trent Hornlike stuff like that versus you're you're talking about is that just urinating on others or is it other other urinating on people or any I think anything involving people I'm not sure I don't okay maybe Brian can fill us in more on because I like because that

Trent Hornthat's just euphemism I enjoy water sports I don't enjoy that well that's what it's called I don't care you know I mean people can come up with all this sort this sort of stuff to smooth over you know what is no trying I'm just trying to give an accurate accounting of

Destinywhat of how you refer these things if you're looking them up trying to find go ahead did you want to ask anything else I have question I reject this idea of like well as pornography increases uh child sex material increases therefore that's a fact though that's fine that

Destinyit's a fact but what I notice is often times with porn to try to refute like the Central Point people will point to a negative outcome that might be increasing and pretend that that count as a reputation of the single point a statement that I can make that's not what we did though Destiny that's

Destinyexactly what you're doing you're saying that as pornography increases child sexual sexual material might increase which means it's an attack against pornography what I would say is it's a form of pornography let me finish my statement what I would say it is a form

Destinyof pornography literally the increase of anything involving say children playing video games necessarily increases the exposure of them to people looking to abuse children that doesn't necessarily mean that online video games or children playing online video games are bad it just means you have to control for the

Destinynegative outcome of people abusing people playing online video games same thing with pornography it's not an argument against pornography if some people might abuse it in a way there might be some people that actually record actual sexual assault that's not an argument against pornography it's an argument against people doing that bad

Trent Hornthing it is an argument of the most commonly searched for terms are things like teen barely legal and they're constantly searched over and over as the most popular thing which people aren't doing with like video

Lila Rosehere here's the theory that I that I think that the social data proves very clearly and the this is the this is the point that when we disorder sex when we

Lila Rosedivorce sex from love Fidelity commitment family you know like the the whole project of marriage I'm going to you know sex can bring life into the world if we do bring a life into the world we're going to stick together love

Lila Roseeach other build a family together when you take sex out of that context out of the context of love and marriage and you put it in the context of my my goal my orgasm what I want right um at whatever

Lila Rosecost I can pay provided someone else consents right it's not just I think that person that will suffer and the other people engaged directly in that that will suffer but it is children and so you said well yes okay there's a

Lila Roseproliferation of child sexual assault material yeah yeah but that's not saying porn is responsible for that that is a form of the porn that's being created and consumed at large in our society so to say that children are somehow

Lila Roseunscathed by the pr pration of porn I think is to totally untrue Destiny and addition and in addition I'll just say one other thing the flip side of this

Lila Rosewe've debated on this before Trent has as well um sexual uh Hedonism at large in addition leads to what we have today which is abortion on demand you

Jazmen Jafarmentioned abortion rates are so low they're actually very high they're are nearly a million a year when porn with the wide um like availability of porn it's gone down a lot so I'm just kid you guys are saying

Jazmen Jafaroh my gosh there's all this violent stuff now I'm looking at the data there's nothing linking porn to increas violence is there actually a lot of studies that link the wide availability of pornography to less I have stud we we

Lila Rosefound that in the Czech Republic in Denmark three or four decades ago it was find a Playboy magazine or go to an adult video store today today porn is everywhere why are we not seeing this

Jazmen Jafarproliferation of violence and all these terrible things we're not those are all when there were just those Playboy magazines we had way more of that stuff than we do now with pornography wi so is

Lila Roseyour argument that we had less child sexual assault material child abuse has declined so you saying are you saying that child sexual assault material can be created without child abuse I'm

Jazmen Jafarsaying that there that that like child abuse cases all of those have gone down I'm also saying STD rates have gone this is according to that's incorrect so incor incorrect okay what what data do you have

Jazmen Jafarso your your argument is that that the proliferation of porn somehow that has led to less child sexual AB led to I'm not saying causation your AR my argument here is that if porn became widely available and it's so violent and it's

Jazmen Jafarso terrible then how come we're not seeing those outcomes why is there proliferation of child sexual assault material on the internet and it increases every because we have the internet now we didn't have the internet before but when we since we've had the

Jazmen Jafarinternet we've had less we've had less abortion less syphilis less gonorrhea less teen sex ta less teen birth rates have fallen 33% according to the CDC uh essay has declined and then so your

Jazmen Jafarargument is that child sexual assault material is not porn or what is your argument my argument I'm not even talking about sexual assault child sexual assault material my argument here is that when porn became widely available we didn't see an increase in

Jazmen Jafarviolence in fact I have lots of studies here that show that once porn became widely available like for instance in the Czech Republic when did porn become widely available in the United States around the early 2000s that's what I read so I I think I I

Lila Rosethink I can understand the argument you're making but I don't think it Bears out for example with divorce rates as an example as I said earlier one of the the second highest most quoted thing when it comes to divorce today is the

Jazmen Jafarpornography use of one of the partners divorce rates have also gone down since then early overall they've gone up over the last not since the so this is my question since porn has become available they have not gone up they've actually

Jazmen Jafargone down since the early 2000 one reason they go down is people are not to Mar but what I'm saying and I don't think they're choosing not I don't think they're not choosing to get married because porn is available but you have no link to that my question is but hold

Lila Roseon I think it's a fact it is a fact that the sexual Revolution which took place in this country mid 20th century which opened the floodgates of pornography first with you know Playboy magazine and then later on with the internet which

Lila Roseopened the floodgates to you know no fault divorce more divorce swinger Culture open marriages all of this stuff abortion all of this stuff that those all things those evil those social ills all

Lila Rosemushroomed together and they still exist in large qual quantities in our society today together because when you treat sex just as orgasm or as something that

Lila Roseas an adult I'm entitled to as long as I can sent and someone else is consenting and sex has no other morality around it you are opening the door and we have the doors wide open to divorce to abortion

Jazmen Jafarto uh a lot of the unhappiness that we're seeing in relationships social agrees with you but I'm pointing out that abortion rates have fallen 41% since the so but abortion rates since

Jazmen Jafarporn has been entered into the mainstream yes has gone down has gone up over the last 50 years dramatically but since no it became widely available in the late '90s so the CDC abortion rates have fallen

Jazmen Jafar4 the 1990s it people look it up this is the CDC that's saying this but you don't think that porn is the only reason I don't think that but what my question to you is is that if it's such a terrible

Lila Rosething where are these terrible out I'm trying to say that I'm trying to say that porn whether it was the Playboy porn or it's the vastly available internet porn terrible do you think they're the same I think that they are

Lila Rosepart of the same problem which is divorcing meaning from sex and welcoming putting arms around hedonistic culture that breaks down families and breaks down marriages and I'm saying that in

Lila Rosethe last 50 years in this country we have seen unprecedented divorce unprecedented unprecedented abortion we've seen unprecedented the sexual revolutions harm talking

Jazmen Jafarabout the sexual Revolution or porn because I'm not talking about 50 years I'm talking about since porn became widely available you guys are saying and all these terrible things teen mom porn so violent where are the outcomes that

Jazmen Jafarshow that this is such an harm because I'm not seeing I have three studies here actually there's a lot of evidence that point has a cathartic effect do you think it's bad Jasmine that the average first stage of exposure to pornography is 11 years old I don't think that's

Jazmen Jafarideal but I don't think not ask I said is it bad yeah I think it's bad but I'm not seeing that it's so bad that it's leading to such terrible outcomes because it's not where are these outcomes what happens when children are exp when children are exposed to

Jazmen Jafarpornography actually there's also a lot of conflicting data on that a lot of the data on this is really frustrating because it's really conflicting have studies here we're but Jasmine part of the reason for that is we're living in a

Trent Hornsocial exp hold hold on one second I I want to know is it bad when 11-year-olds their first exposure to pornography I'm just saying that's a bad thing yeah it's a bad thing in the sense why is it why is it bad what does it do

Jazmen Jafarto them I don't it's like not they're not old enough their their prefrontal cortex isn't developed enough to be able to look at that and realize what's real what's not real how sex is supposed to go so I don't think porn is a great how how is sex supposed to go probably not

Destinylike the right if you're on PornHub watching like eight people gang bang someone they're going to think that that is normal that's not normal not okay wa wait wait hold on wait okay I think when we talk about how sex supposed to go okay I think we have to build a constructive case for what are different

Destinyways that we can view sex um guys seem to be really happy to say that like sex ought to be this or societies destroyed sex or blah blah blah blah blah I think that you can posit a separate argument that sex is actually something that the body is capable of experiencing that is

Destinya lot of fun and we've evolved beyond the need to view sex as just a tool or a facility to pump out children and instead can view it as a way to bond with people or have fun or enjoy recreationally I think that we have the tools today to enjoy that because we got

Destinythings to protect our cure STDs we've got ways to prevent pregnancies um we've got different types of birth controls I think that it's okay that Society has taken on a different view of sex just like we've taken on a different view of women working jobs or a different view of what kind of clothes can we wear

Destinybecause we have air conditioning or a different view of what are the hours that we can be awake where we can travel I think it's just natural that different things will evolve over time that will view different things yeah we can view things differently uh uh based on our way of engaging with them according to

Lila Rosethe go backer Institute for women that get abortions 50% of them in the month that they got pregnant were using contraception so when you kind of say well now we have these technologies that

Lila Rosecan somehow sort of blunt the con the natural consequences of what was this what was that supposed to refute so what's that supposed to refute is you're saying that we have all of these Powers now change the way we engage with sex the way we engage with was anything I

Destinysaid incorrect um I I think it's completely it's fully incorrect say do you think that contraception reduces the like no no let's one stat at a time no hold on get to ask my question I didn't even barely talk for two sentences and you wanted to cut me off with the thing

Destinyabout abortion so I'm going to ask you do you think contraception is effective at dramatically reducing the rates of of getting imp pregnant I think that at Large L contraception has led to the mindset a contraceptive I'm going to ask

Lila Rosethe same question again when you finish this it depends over time increases it actually leads to more abortion over time do you think that contraception is effective at preventing pregnancies it can in the short term but over time it

Destinyleads to more abortion really do you have any evidence that somebody that is on so you're saying so you're saying you have a study right now that shows that somebody on contraception on average has more children over their lifetime than somebody that doesn't use contraception say okay so you don't have any evidence

Destinyfor that I don't I don't I don't well no you're giv me a lot of like socially constructed opinions you have data based on yours of how you think that sex should operate religious but I reject

Trent Hornthose things so obviously we know we know we are not making a case that sex ought to be done religiously or ought to be done in this particular way we are just saying that the view that that

Trent Hornprostitution and pornography require which is that sex is just a hedonistic activity nobody why does it require that because it would be wrong if okay well what what what would you how would you answer the question it can have many

Destinypurposes I think that when I go to a massage parlor I'm paying you know 80 bucks to get a massage that can just be a person give me massage with a partner having a partner rubbing your back or your neck that can feel like a lot more romantic just because I go to the

Destinymassage Pro doesn't mean I devalue the experience with like a partner no what do you think it does earlier you used the phrase sex work isn't real because sex for hire doesn't make sense it's like a friend for hire what is a therapist can't you pay a therapist to review your problems with them and they

Destinygive you feedback here's the thing and once you stop paying a sex worker they stop having sex with you yeah but the whole the whole point that's it's called work yeah no because point is it's more meaningful than that of course it is more meaningful I would agree just like having a really good intimate

Trent Hornconversation with a friend is more meaningful than having a intimate conversation with a therapist around so many different places only because I'm following you on your tangents but well I was trying to ask you made a so if sex

Trent Hornwork is so if sex work is just a skill it's something that people enjoy yeah uh do there have to be is this something that only Specialists can well let's say for example so jine a lot of people do only fans they have other jobs like

Trent Hornyou're a lawyer people have other jobs so you can have someone who's a masseuse and do only fans or a therapist and does only fans yeah right okay so you could be you're like a sex worker By Night massuse therapist during the day would

Destinyit be okay if they offered those sex Services as a part of their day job being depend on what the day job is if it's like a lawyer or something or if it's like a therapist probably not because you're violating like um an appropriate relationship to have with

Destinysomebody um but if it's like you're auto mechanic and he also sells you pictures of his dick it's probably not as big of a deal let example so my my wife was a nurse at the hospital so she worked with

Trent Hornum neurot talemetry and people have you know brain injuries spine injuries stuff like that and also older people and people who would need things like bathing and cleaning okay so they need

Trent Hornum you know to be clean including and clean their parium paranal care so just like groin crotch but that kind of stuff sure and some of them would ask her and this would also happen to other nurses hey while you're down there could you just like you know play play with my we

Trent Hornwee a little bit or you know masturbate me so let's say you have a nurse who is also an only fans uh you know is a sex worker on the side should she be allowed to offer that is my understanding and I'm not a medical professional but my understanding is when you're making

Destinydecisions related to Patient Care a patient under your care engaging in Friendly or sexual relationships with them can cause an inappropriate Crossing of boundaries that compromises your ability to deliver good medical care so I would say that in the case where somebody's like a therapist or a medical

Lila Roseprofessional that's making decisions relating to healthare it's probably not because you just related can't even accept on wait how did my relation to therapy to Friendship break anything that I just said because you're saying that you can't enter this new Dynamic of

Destinysexual relationship in a healthcare setting because that somehow violates the healthare setting what's being violated that's trans question why what did I just say was being violated what is being violated I I said it like three times I'll repeat it again it's

Destinycompromising your ability to deliver care but if the care is including let ask this question including sex work you wouldn't include sex work and health work together in care unless you're so well un I mean we could we

Destinycould invent a scenario that's true what if you're going to a hospital and part of the Care is my husband has issues with erectile dysfunction maybe part of the health services is them jerking you off to make sure everything's working in that case you would combine it would you agree or would you would you say so

Lila Roseinappropriate you're wait I want to answer for that would you if that case would that be an appropriate combination I don't think you should go to people to uh jerk you off no that's do you think it would be do you think us ignoring your personal view do you think it would

Destinypersonal sexual view it's a view that's actually been held for thousands of years by many millions so if you're going to a hospital and they're trying to check you for working sexual function them seeing if you can get an erection that would be an inappropriate way for them to examine you I think if they are

Lila Rosereally trying to determine you can if you're if you can get an erection there's a way and you're a married person in a marriage there's what if you're not a married person what if you're single why would they need to determine that because believe it or not there are people in this world that even when they're not married they want to

Lila Roseensure that their sexual function is working and sex I really want to answer that I really want to answer that I don't I I you disagree with that you don't think your sexual function is relevant if you're not married I think it's relevant but I think that I don't think it would be good care to go into a

Destinyhospital say there is I really want to answer this so if you have problems with erectile dysfunction it would be inappropriate for a healthcare provider to assess the ability of you to get an erection while you're at the hospital that's inappropriate I I mean I think it

Destinyit depend I I'm curious what the standard of care is for that right now I mean do you know what the standard of care is I'm not but I'm asking it's a hypothetical but I'm asking if you go to the hospital you with the rec dysfunction doctor I've got issues and I say okay we're going to give you a medication we're going to try something and let's see we'll see if we get I think it would be a strange form of care

Lila Roseto say well let's try I ask if it was strange or not was I don't think it would be appropriate don't think it that type of that type of health is totally out to be clear giving a medication would be appropriate it's fine to use

Trent Hornmedical treat stimulate them it's fine to use medical treatment to see if your body is working properly it's fine to do things to um acquire semen for example you might use for example with some

Trent Hornpatients use Electro ejaculation stimulation of the prostate in order to get well for some patients that's what you have to do including if they're paralyzed okay I'm understand what you just say was a way more hardcore Kink

Trent Hornthan water sports but okay goe no no to see if you can ejaculate to see if you're able there is a difference between trying to determine if your body

Trent Hornis functioning properly and saying that sex is just a service that can be provided so if so hold on if we provide so if we provide people in the hospital we provide them all kinds of services to make sure they're comfortable right like

Trent Hornwe give them television they don't need that to live right okay but it makes them comfortable correct um yeah so we give patients stuff in the hospital to make sure that they're stay as comfortable we give them television we

Trent Horngive them different food they can choose we give them bathing obviously and when they're very uncomfortable we turn them we do things to make sure they're comfortable so if a patient says sex would make me very comfortable why wouldn't if a nurse can clean the guy's

Trent Horntesticles and penis and is already handling all of this why not just you put on the gloves and give him a a hand job well one is because it's illegal um two if it were legal my guess would be the procedure for that would be you

Trent Hornwould bring in a third party or you contct to somebody why do you bring in a third party let me let me finish let me finish why do you need to bring in a third party to give the guy a hand job and not a third party to wipe his butt

Destinyand clean between his parum because when you start engaging in romantic or sexual or who say it's romantic it's just getting I said or or means any of these when you ran

Destinysexual that these things are inappropriate because they compromise your ability to objectively offer care for instance would it be inappropriate to say well can you please just like jerk me off you're going to clean my ass yes that would be because if a patient starts to have a sexual relationship

Destinywith a practitioner then there then if that practitioner is to make a tough call on that patient's Health that might become right the same way that let's say the same way that let's say the person starts saying like man you know my kid why does sex do this St let wait let me just finish hold I got to finish this

Destinyone thing oh my God okay let's say that the patient comes in or the the nurse comes in and the patient starts talking to nurse like man my kids aren't calling me like I don't know what to do and then the nurse sits around they start talking blah blah blah blah blah that would be equally inappropriate that would be incredibly inappropriate if they started to to form a very close friendship with

Destinythe patient that would also be inappropriate because again if a tough call has to be made on the patient at some point you might not be able to make that tough call because now your judgment is compromised this is why uh surgeons that have like wives or husbands don't operate on them because their judgment is compromised if you can

Destinygive hand jobs and you're not attached it's just sex work well right now in terms of how human relationsship work it seems to be you saying something very important which is that there is an emotional psychological component to sex

Lila Roseas somebody so as a lawyer we have rules on how a engage with people we're not allowed to for instance I want to make sure I'm understanding Destiny correctly and what he just said hold on let okay let lla go then we'll have you come in

Lila Rosego and I do want to get back to the contraception thing but uh but you had said that there's an emotional romantic connection to sex that's I think you I don't know if you often times there can

Lila Rosebe yes yes so that sounds like more than work it can be yeah so so you're talk when you when you guys talk about sex Sor wait wait I'm sorry real quick I reject that what do you mean that sounds

Lila Roselike more than work when you talk about sex work like we can sell this commodity of sex like service to lead like it's a service you're saying well but more emotions and psychological romantic feelings get involved therefore it doesn't belong in the professional

Lila Rosesetting of healthcare that's what you're saying because but like so how can you still say it's work and it's a professional profession teachers work yes do they have emotional connections to children and parents they should that's a heal so that argument doesn't make any sense so what's the next one well are you saying that a nurse should

Lila Rosenot have an emotional connection at all to her patient generally they try to minimize it yes uh they they should have empathy that's actually required for nurses to have empathy they shouldn't have empathy they should have compassion and they're two different things because

Trent Hornempathy they can compromise your ability are you saying a nurse can't understand uh the personal background desires hopes and develop a friendly rapport with a patient you can have where there isn't

Destinyyou can no no it's a key it's a crucial distinction having a friendly rapport with somebody is different than becoming personally emotionally invested in the outcome you have to maintain an appropriate level of distance whether you're a lawyer whether sex crosses that

Jazmen Jafarline because of what sex just intrinsically many things cross that line like I just said when you're a lawyer you can't accept certain gifts you can't get too close to your clients they can't become like best friends to you that's going to cause problems for you down the line we take entire classes on this on all the ways we're not

Jazmen Jafarsupposed to get too close with our clients and it's not all sexually it's even just in Friendship so professionalism the standard for professionalism I agree it's not professional to offer sexual services to somebody in a in in a setting where that's not appropriate but there are other things that aren't appropriate

Lila Roseeither it doesn't mean they're all bad and that you can't use different so I think I mean the the point that you're making though is that sex is personal it involves roome it can involve romance it involves feelings it involves this

Destinyconnectivity that you sometimes can't help but have and that's our Point well have question that's not your point a very important part of our point no that's every single human's point we all understand that we everyone here agrees

Lila Rosethat a therapist you understand that but you also think it's acceptable to have SE these sexual relationships with potentially thousands of people onl you're not understanding the whole point

Destinyof your argument has to do with dual relationships and you're trying to apply this to singular relationships we all agree here that a therapist having sex with a patient would be bad right why because it

Trent Hornimps let's say the therapist is a sexist should be a sex therapist is obviously not the type of no but that's the thing sex therapist it's illegal for sex therapists to have sex with their own clients they can talk

Destinyto them about hold on I'm not even sure that's true hold on okay let me okay I can't ask a question because I'm not going to get any engagement make my not true Jess it is a very simple question is can a therapist have sex with a patient and then you're like well what

Destinyabout Sex Therapy no no no I think J considers what she and they can't because it compromises your ability to give good therapy what I am saying is that if sex is just a service that is provided and it has we don't have to I understand the next stage of argument

DestinyI'm trying to show why that's ridiculous I understand it you're going to say then I will take it out of the Dual Ro to the single Ro and I'll give you let's just explore this for two seconds and we can go to whatever you're going to jump okay a therapist cannot have sex with a patient because it compromises their

Destinyability to deliver good therapy we age their relationship right no that's not the only reason oh my God go ahead it it does it would also be equally inappropriate for a therapist to form a close friendship with and to go out and

Destinylike have drinks or meals with a patient but it doesn't mean that drink and dinner are super not just that because when a therapist has sex with a patient Destiny it's grape because the therapist has a power IM balance over the patient

Trent Hornand can manipulate their emotions and there are consent issues involved sure that's true as well that's not what we're focus more important reason okay we can pick a different we can pick a nurse and a and a patient as well I

Lila Rosethink it must be said that a lot of people involved in creating pornography and prostitution consider what they do a form of therapy for the client that's that's not there is a reason that the sexual revolution has coincided with us

Jazmen Jafarbeing more cognizant of things like consent because the whole point of is the sexual Revolution and allowing people more freedom and how they want to express their sexuality is that it's a choice but it's still your choice right that's why things like marital rape was outlawed in the '90s we have the rape

Jazmen JafarShield Doctrine you're not allowed to bring up a victim's past sexual history in a sexual assault case we have me too movement so I don't think like yeah Power and balances are important because that can get in the way of consent so consent is super important but what you

Lila Rosechoose to do is not that's what the sexual it's not it's on accident that those two things too is a reaction against the excesses of the sexual Revolution so I mean I think to say that these things are given

Lila Roseto us by the sexual evolution is totally it is though like marital rapal fists early feminist you're saying me too is a is a reaction to What a me too is the reaction to the excesses of

Lila Rosethe sexual Revolution and a lot of the uh a lot of the reform that was requested in the way that marriages took place and marital rape protection was early feminists who were not sexual revolutionaries who themselves wanted

Jazmen Jafarfamily values and many of them were pro-life so to say that it was the sexual revolutionaries that gave us those two things coincided at the same time because the whole point of the sexual Revolution was that okay you're not going to be ruined now because you

Jazmen Jafarchoose to have casual sex but if someone comes in because there was a lot of inappropriate harassment rape Etc statute of limitations has been increased due to the me tooo movement all of these things coincided because

Trent Hornconsent is a huge part of the sexual Revolution I I I think that and me too is a response to people seeing women as Commodities that they can acquire and

Trent Hornseeing sex as a means of AC of acquiring that commodity basically it's it's responding to a dehumanizing view of sex now I agree many people don't have that view but I do think that the hedonistic

Trent Hornview of sex does lead to that but here's the question I wanted to ask just to get back to what sex is for and why I think it shows that this view of sex is absurd all right suppose you had a friend and

Trent Hornthey said uh cuz this is parling on the idea that sex is just a it's a hedonistic activity people can share with consent like say for example like martial arts so martial arts if I go nobody thinks sex is like that but no no

Trent Hornhold on let me say make the analogy if I start martial arts with somebody without their consent I'll go to jail because that's assault right I just go and punch somebody but I can ask them hey do you want to spar with me a little bit okay